Lumberjacking - oh my

Venger · November 21, 2001, 17:05

Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...

That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...

Piteous...

Venger

Velociryx · November 21, 2001, 17:26

Hmm....

While I don't disagree with you, lumberjacking is hardly a new strategy.

It was not as widely used in SMAC as it has been discussed here for a few reasons, one of which is certainly the differences in effect re: Effie drain vs. Civ3 Corruption (and another was simply the fact that SMAC's Terraformers NEVER ran out of things to do), but the fact is....if I'm using it and you're not, I WILL outproduce you, even if corruption is fixed.

That's just math.

And, if I outproduce you (assuming we're approximately equal as players go), odds are good that I'll beat you.

I think what we're seeing here is more an attempt to cope with a level of AI aggression that we've not seen before in this series than an attempt to fix corruption (which, by the way, I'm in the minority....I don't happen to feel that it's broken per se, but support a late-game reduction in it representing technology and cultural breakthrus....for the ancient era, middle ages, and part of the industrial era tho, I'm all for it just as it is!).

As to the strategy itself, I *frequently* make limited use of it, even in cities with GOOD production....after getting myself out of Despotism, it's a good way to build up some shields to make paying for a rush with gold cheaper.

Just my two cents.

-=Vel=-

barefootbadass · November 21, 2001, 17:56

Vel is right, lumberjacking is a powerful strategy that would be used even if corruption were manage-able. I do it in cities with low corruption even if they aren't working on wonders. When MP comes out this will likely become a necessary thing to be competitive(better get your fingers in shape

)

Anyway, this is not a problem IMO and if you are going to keep complaining you should go back to the general forum and complain there with the masses that want the game to fit their strategies rather than adjusting their strategy to fit the game.

Hang on, a patch is coming(hopefully soon) that will reduce corruption. I think Firaxis's playtesting got cut short along with production of MP because Infogrames wanted them to rush production(heh, unhappy customers for 20 turns I guess). At least I think I read that somewhere once.

solo · November 21, 2001, 18:13

Like incremental rush-buying in CivII, lumberjacking is a tedious, yet useful trick. In fact, I find it less tedious than incremental rush-buying.

True, it would be better to have a game design where such laborious tactics were not available, but until then, there is no better way to build up totally corrupt cities, so we do it to get by.

inca911 · November 21, 2001, 18:30

Like most other sane people, I will play Multiplayer (MP) under the caveat that lumberjacking is strictly prohibited. I have no desire to hold lumberjacking contests instead of Civ3 contests. If you want to do lumberjacking vs. the AI, go for it, but I won't want any time wasted with the whole mess in MP. Lumberjacking is just like the food caravan trick of Civ2....

Velociryx · November 21, 2001, 18:37

::shrug:: that's cool, and I can see the how and whys behind the argument.

What....amuses(?) me is this:

Everybody who plays Civ-style games KNOWS that the devil is in the details and that it's all about micromanagement.

* No one automates workers. Ever.

* Few, if any even use autopathing for thier units

* No one uses Governors. Ever.

* Diehards, ever anxious to get the MOST out of each city micromanage to the WORKER LEVEL every city they have, every turn in MP.

....but they'll draw the line at chopping down trees....

-=Vel=-
(and btw, I'm NOT picking on Inca, or anybody else who is against lumberjacking in MP....I realize there are lots of people who feel that way....I've just never understood it, in light of all the other micromanagement that goes on)

-V.

Skanky Burns · November 21, 2001, 18:37

I use limited lumberjacking to increase the production of newly built, highly corrupt cities to save me some money rather than rush-buying. Once these cities can produce enough on their own, no more lumberjacking for them.

What i dont get about your post is this comment:

Quote:

but I won't want any time wasted with the whole mess in MP.

Doesnt using lumberjacking make production faster, so rather than barracks in 20 year, you can get them in say, 4 years??

liupang · November 21, 2001, 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
What....amuses(?) me is this:

Everybody who plays Civ-style games KNOWS that the devil is in the details and that it's all about micromanagement.

* No one automates workers. Ever.
-V.

I Do automate workers---in late game that is

Quote:

* Few, if any even use autopathing for thier units
-V.

That was because autopathing was bugged. Did you tried autopathing in Civ3? It's mostly useable now and I use it all the time.

Quote:

* No one uses Governors. Ever.

-V.

Again, it's still bugged. Not works well. I believe the loadable queue in SMAC mostly solved the problem, but then, in civ3 , it's a step backward---what's the good if I can only have one "template" saved and load?

Quote:

* Diehards, ever anxious to get the MOST out of each city micromanage to the WORKER LEVEL every city they have, every turn in MP.

....but they'll draw the line at chopping down trees....

-V.

I think we have to draw a line here on lumberjacking(and the incremental buying in civ2) because at least micromanaging has use of intelligence involoved. (while lumberjacking /incremental buying only involves brainless repetition---and I think that's what we as a Strategy gamer should be against.

Harm · November 21, 2001, 19:00

I have yet to see the need to lumberjack. I merely edited the game and allowed Police Stations and Barracks to reduce corruption. Plus I would find the constant build forest/cut down forest as tedious as the constant single mouse clicking of the Diablo series.

I, myself, see it as an exploit; especially since the AI doesn't know the trick. However the AI has a few tricks that I can't master either; like omnipotence.

fanatic civver · November 21, 2001, 20:02

I think its a lot easier paying gold for buildings, unless you're building the forbidden palace

Workers also cost 1 gold a turn under democracy. You'll save a few turns by lumberjacking, but if you've got lots of big cities and a fat income then lumberjacking's just an unneccessary pain in the arse.

Change to communism and use forced labor on those captured cities. You need to get rid of all the citizens anyway because of the civil disorder! Note I haven't tried this myself

Capt Dizle · November 21, 2001, 20:42

I am playtesting the lumberjack option strictly for use to build cultural improvements in border mega corruption cities.

Its a lot of work for cities that end up with +10 culture per turn, +1 commerce and +1 shield.

I think of them as border bumpers.

If they are going to leave this in as a viable option please God give us a lumberjacking hot key.

It's mind numbing.

Venger · November 21, 2001, 21:03

Good to see some thoughts on it. Personally, I see it as an exploit that while not quite cheating, is working so around the margins of a system as to render it unenjoyable - it's been mentioned that workers cost 1 gold per turn - is this correct? Because that would make it a little less attractive...

I got better things to do with my life than hit plant and clear around every city 8 times a turn...

Personally, I'd just as soon they fix corruption and courthouse effects and make lumberjacking moot...

Venger

dnassman · November 21, 2001, 21:27

The automating workers issue I have found to be buggy. In civ 2, although it was very occasional, when you would automate workers and if pollution would arise, engineers would automatically go and try and clean that up first. So far in civ3 when I have automated workers and pollution has come about I thought that I wouldn't have to worry about it because my workers would take care of it as their first priority. After watching my automated workers moving all over the place none of them went to clean up pollution. This happened next few turns as well until I was feed up and had to do it myself. Very annoying. Any ideas?

Monoriu · November 21, 2001, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger
Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...

That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...

Piteous...

Venger

1. I do not use lumberjacking. Yes I personally consider it a cheat and I hope they'll do something about it in the next patch.

2. However, I DO move 80 workers (sometimes more) around manually to do things and yes the game is still very fun for me.

3. I never automate anything in civ games. No governors, no autoworkers, no autopath, and yes I often check my cities to make sure that the city workers are on the optimal tiles. In fact I have never tried the autoworker thing......but the first time I saw 10 AI workers rushed to irrigate a single tile (they moved across my empire to an isolated city of theirs) I knew I was right......

4. Why does it bother you so much? MP is not out, until then, if you don't like it, don't use it. However I do agree that they need to do something (maybe option to turn off?) when MP comes out.

Velociryx · November 21, 2001, 22:11

Good points all around.

The reason I don't see it as an exploit though, is for the reason already stated. There is a limit, even under Despotism/Communism to the number of "Free" units an Empire has at its disposal, and of course, under Republic and Democracy, the limit is zero. Anything above your freebie limit, and you pay one gold a turn for each unit you have in the field.

Clearly then, you're not getting something for nothing in the case of lumberjacking. One way or the other, you're paying for it (1gold per turn, or the workers in question are occupying one of your free slots and you're paying 1g per turn for your troops).

The other reason is this: In SMAC MP, one of the mainstays of the game is the lowly Supply Crawler, which is put onto target tiles to harvest X, where X is the value of one resource type that the tile produces. This is merely an abstraction of the lumberjacking process (given that a Former's work is never quite done in SMAC, which makes it unlikely in the extreme that Formers would ever be relegated to traditional lumberjacking duties.

The argument that it is mindlessly repetitive is a good one, and probably the major reason it's not seeing widespread and consistent use.

Nonetheless, there IS an automation feature "auto-deforest" or whatever it is called.....easy enough to put a few workers on it and let them have at the trees (which most players cut down at one point or another simply because running a rail system over a forest nets you no additional gain.....you've gotta be rid of the trees and terraform it to gain a rail benefit.

-=Vel=-

barefootbadass · November 21, 2001, 22:42

Why would some of you guys not want to play with a lumberjacker? You could get 50+ free workers at once!

Of course with all that production, you can bet it will be hard to take those 'jacks, but oh the rewards.

Lumberjacking will not be moot after corruption is fixed, you will just have more money to support more workers to do it.

It is not a cheat and was built in the game as an intentional option for rushing things(except wonders which would be too powerful since firaxis wanted wonders to be hard to build). The manual mentions chopping down forests as a method for rushing stuff or helping to rush stuff. Just because planting a forest to chop it down again wasn't explicitly mentioned doesn't make it a cheat, doing so is really the only way that rushing by chopping down forests can be an option for very long.

Auto-pathing in civ3 is now perfect in the sense that it will pick the shortest path(or one of the shortest paths) every time, but you still have to be careful, sometimes the longer, safer way is better.

Monoriu · November 21, 2001, 23:22

"Why would some of you guys not want to play with a lumberjacker? You could get 50+ free workers at once! Of course with all that production, you can bet it will be hard to take those 'jacks, but oh the rewards. "

Good question. I thought about it for a while and here is my answer:

1. Because I am lazy. (serious)
2. Because I have a fixed mindset on how I want to play the game and I don't want to insert something that is quite wierd into my cherished method (again, serious, not sacarsm).
3. Because I have a feeling that it maybe changed in the next patch.
4. Because I can stand on moral high ground on the forums and call it a cheat.

So, after thinking about it, none of the above reasons actually make any sense.

"Lumberjacking will not be moot after corruption is fixed, you will just have more money to support more workers to do it.

It is not a cheat and was built in the game as an intentional option for rushing things(except wonders which would be too powerful since firaxis wanted wonders to be hard to build). The manual mentions chopping down forests as a method for rushing stuff or helping to rush stuff. Just because planting a forest to chop it down again wasn't explicitly mentioned doesn't make it a cheat, doing so is really the only way that rushing by chopping down forests can be an option for very long. "

Thank you. I think I can justify to my consciene of using lumberjacking now. Cool, I'll have to try it out tonight.

"Auto-pathing in civ3 is now perfect in the sense that it will pick the shortest path(or one of the shortest paths) every time, but you still have to be careful, sometimes the longer, safer way is better."

K, I'll try it. Thanks.

Monoriu, recent convert to the lumberjacking technique

kittenOFchaos · November 22, 2001, 02:23

If I had the time -busy me- I would play civ3 and build a huge empire...as it is I'm enjoying just playing and learning the game and seeing how well I do with a managable 10 cities or so...

I agree with Vel that players ARE going to do it all themselves for they hate mistakes being made that could be avoided...in mp of civ2 i certainly checked most of my cities each turn unless I was confident that I was well in charge

As for the lumberjacking...I have no need as my empires are small and managable -well playing England on a huge mod world map with 16 civs in historic position you can play purrfectionist with ease.

Out4Blood · November 22, 2001, 03:42

How does lumberjacking compare to Rush building everything in Despotism? I find workers too hard to rush (you lose TWO pop) and since I am using food and not shields...

vmxa1 · November 22, 2001, 03:52

I messed around with rushing/sacrifice and lumberjacking, but it is not my cup of tea. In a large or huge map it is too much trouble. I will set a worker or tow to jacking if I have nothing better for them to do, especially if I am holding them to clean up pollution. I like to micromanage, but with scores of workers it is too much. I manage everything else.

Venger · November 22, 2001, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Monoriu
1. I do not use lumberjacking. Yes I personally consider it a cheat and I hope they'll do something about it in the next patch.

Not sure what they could do. I think the reason people are using it is to help build in cities that have lost all but one shield to corruption. If they fix that, I think they fix this...

Quote:

2. However, I DO move 80 workers (sometimes more) around manually to do things and yes the game is still very fun for me.

Right there with you. I just think lumberjacking with them is tedious. Building infrastructure is NOT tedious...

I bet I have alot more than 80 workers in my current game (still on my first, can you believe it). Is there a way to tell how many units you have in the field? You could in Civ2, but that unfortunately doesn't mean anything anymore.

Quote:

3. I never automate anything in civ games.

Why let the AI do what I can do better?

Quote:

4. Why does it bother you so much? MP is not out, until then, if you don't like it, don't use it. However I do agree that they need to do something (maybe option to turn off?) when MP comes out.

Because it's number #491 in a list of things that tell me this product was rushed out the door without decent testing, and that gameplay lessons learned from Civ2 and SMAC apparently fell on deaf ears or small minds...that someone has to go to the trouble to exploit this just to deal with the broken corruption is the problem.

Venger

Desert Journeyman · November 22, 2001, 21:17

What is 'lumberjacking'? I have around 30+ workers terraforming all over my continent, because I began on jungle. Yet I have the feeling that conversation is not about this type of 'forest clearing', or is it?

What does this have to do with rushing production?

I like the idea of the worker, especially that it can be captured or used to build "colonies". Very excellent concept, if somewhat unwieldy during war-time.

Monoriu · November 22, 2001, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger

"I bet I have alot more than 80 workers in my current game (still on my first, can you believe it). Is there a way to tell how many units you have in the field? You could in Civ2, but that unfortunately doesn't mean anything anymore. "

Yes, press F3 for the military advisor, on the left side of the screen choose sort by unit (default is sort by city) and it will tell you how many units of each type you have.

Venger

solo · November 22, 2001, 23:05

The solution to lumberjacking abuses would be to use the editor to increase the number of turns needed to replant a forest. Make it take 50 times as long as it takes to clear a forest to reflect the fact that trees can be cut down quickly, but that seedlings take many years to grow back into mature trees.

vmxa1 · November 23, 2001, 04:46

Lumberjacking is cutting tree with worker(s) and then planting them to start all other again. This puts 10 shields in the coffer and can speed up production or rush it.

Monster · November 23, 2001, 04:49

Sorry, I can't resist...

Lumberjack Song (by Monty Phyton)

BARBER:
I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.
MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I eat my lunch.
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I skip and jump.
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I wear high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear Papa.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra?!
[talking]
What's this? Wants to be a girlie?! Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!
[singing]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okaaaaay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

Kaesar · November 23, 2001, 04:51

Journeyman:

Lumberjacking is a way to rushbuild things. I personnally use it during mid or late games when I have tons of workers with nothing to do. Here it goes:

After you have researched engineering, your workers can plant forests. It takes 4 turns. Clearing forests takes 4 turns and yields 10 shields. But, it seems the game calculates that turn at the moment you assign the order, so you can actually plant a forest instantaneously by sending 4 workers to plant on the same square, and then sending 4 workers to cut down the forest. If you have extra workers, it's a great way to make more shields, and if you are an industrious civ, then the work is done in half the time.

My Rational for Lumberjacking:

So with 40 industrious workers, you can create 100 extra shields, and that's why it seems like cheating. BUT...... it's been said before, Firaxis already has thought about this and that's why you can't do this with wonders, palace, and space ships. You can only lumberjack rush with improvements and units. Plus, you can't switch to wonders, palace and space ships after you have lumberjacked even once(I've tried it, it doesn't work. You can only switch if you haven't rushed in any sort of way). So in my own conscience it is not cheating. It is a thought out game feature.

Desert Journeyman · November 23, 2001, 10:50

Does it work with jungle squares? This could be just the "jump" ahead I need to outdo the overwhealming 7 civilizations coming at me ...

Roytheboy · November 23, 2001, 11:20

What is the point of the replant function if the game designers didnt want lumberjacking ?
Can you just turn off replanting in the editor if you don't like lumberjacking ?

Boney · November 23, 2001, 11:39

Kaesar, actually 40 workers, by your premise of 4 turns to grow and 4 turns to cut would produce 50 shields, not one hundred. Growing does not gain any shields.