MY opinion - conclusive :-)

[yyyyyy]

Well here is my opinion on what´s hot and what´s not in Civ3. First of all I have to state that despite (all??) the obvious bugs (Air superiority) I just LOVE this game! Resources are SO cool, and I just am fed up with all those people whining "I just don´t have all the resources, this game sucks" - WELL, go OUT and DO SOMETHING about it (TRADE, WAR, EXPLORE). Comments are welcome, I am just into my third game, if u guys know if any of my "wishes" will be fixes, please let me know!

- Terraforming: Is quite nice the way it is, you can go for basics (woods to grassland) but not change the whole world (as if this would be realistic!) Heard somewhere that this has been done too make pollution more of a threat. Definitely good!

- Nukes: Could be a tad more powerful IMHO. Should kill ALL the Military units in a city and reduce the city to 1 or 2 (not just half its pop).

- Corruption: Big Issue. I like the idea that there is A LOT of corruption in certain HUGE empires and to certain governments. But IMHO it is TOO strong. It is just too sucking to cope with 1-shield-cities and the courthouses are too weak. Even Forbidden City doesn´t do too much in my games because it just helped on "one side" of the empire. Either weaken corruption at all or make it affect the COMMERCE way more then the shields. (Any official statements on this one???)

- Manhattan Project. Should DEFINITELY be a SMALL WONDER. I don´t like the fact that everyone knows to produce nukes once it is built. Should be a major effort for every country to build on its own!

- Air Fight. Pretty cool in general (apart the apparent bugs like precision bombing and broken Air Superiority). I also STRONGLY appreciate the fact that LAND units can´t be completely wiped out by air force (they never were in reality as well!). I STRONLY dislike the fact that u can´t sink ships by airforce (yeah heard about "we did this to force players to build a navy at all") but still don´t like it. Could be solved simply with the following idea (stolen from some post): Just give it a certain chance X that a certain ship Y sinks as lons as it only has one power point left. How about this?

- Tanks vs Warrior Issue... Well, give´s me some headaches... I really don´t like loosing tanks to anything weaker then probably an entrenched riflemen. Units worser then those should REALLY not be able to hurt a tank at all. I know about "We didn´t want those who lost science race to be hopelessly lost" but if u have no Riflemen once the others have tanks u simply DESERVE to be killed.

- Subs. Pretty much useless the way they are. SO powerful units in reality. Definitely HAS to be changed. Make nuclear subs tougher then basic subs. Make subs in general invisible to anything but destroyers and planes (Recon Mission), give them the bombard ability (REALLY powerful, but VISIBLE after they used it).

- Give subs and AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers the abilitiy to carry Cruise Missiles (maybe 2?), to simulate modern Sea Combat.

- AI´s ICS. Hmmmm, I like the AI´s tendency too expand, makes it a hell of a lot tougher but it is just TOO fond on expanding. It definitely isn´t challenging but simply annoying to have the AI found cities in your "leftovers" (those 2 desert squares where your borders just don´t connect know). There is no benefit for the AI (soon the city will be culturally taken) and u and up with cities in places u just don´t need. ANY STATEMENT ON THIS???

- The HORRENDOUS time it takes for the computer to finish the AI´s moves in midgame with 16 civs on a huge map. I am not quite shure if this can be changed but I just LOVE 16 civs, is there any way to make the ai moves quicker??? (I am not much into programming, so this is just a question, no real complaint)

- AI cheating: As it already has been discussed there is no way to make a decent AI without letting it "cheat". Following Cheats should be ABSOLUTELY prohibited:
1) Better Combat Chances for the AI: IF there are any such TAKE THEM OUT!!! (I have not the impression that there are any, just making sure. All my fights are pretty much fair IF you know the rules and fight by them, This is NOT Civ2 or CTP!)
2) Rushing World Wonders once the player comes close to finishing them. (Either the AI manages to win the race with its already granted AI shield bonus on higher level OR IT LOOSES. Simple.)
3) No free settlers or cities for the AI. Give it a X % shield bonus in it´s cities on some difficutliy levels, but NO other bonus.

- Military Alert: I LOVED this feature about CtP!!! For those of you not knowing, there were 3 states of alert for your forces: Peacetime, Alert, War. The more alert, the more powerpoints your units had and the more support they needed. I would LOVE to have this in Civ3. There was nothing cooler then having the tensions mount with your neighbour and slowly alerting your forces or being completely caught with your pants down (peace time forces) by an war mongering aggresor. This was SO cool. Civ3 features the cool Wartime/Normal Economy trigger though. Bot of them combined would really kick ass! (Your opionion???).

- Multiplayer: Can live without it so far even though I LOVE MP. The AI is pretty tough so far and in the end we WILL have MP (and I AM WILLING to pay for it as long as it offers LAN, HOTSEAT, and certain servers (like CTP did and like Counterstrike)), but if there will be NO MP I will be really pissed :-)

This is all I can think of so far even though I am sure I will be pissed once I klicked the POST button that I forget all of the important thnings :-)
Sorry for my crappy english but it isn´t my native language.

COMMENTS WELCOME AND WISHED FOR!

[Libertarian]

All in all, a well balanced and well presenting list of suggestions.

Regarding the movements of 16 Civs, you can press the shift key when you see them, and speed past all of it.

[Dwarf Lord]

Originally posted by yyyyyy
It definitely isn´t challenging but simply annoying to have the AI found cities in your "leftovers" (those 2 desert squares where your borders just don´t connect know). There is no benefit for the AI (soon the city will be culturally taken) and u and up with cities in places u just don´t need. ANY STATEMENT ON THIS???

Here is one: I can't stand this AI feature as well. Imo it is the most annoying thing of the whole game.
The Computer just keeps and keeps settling and making small cities along your border or even in small zones between your cities, which is totally annoying.
Things you can do about is either to wipe out the enmy out entirely, or to make land blockades with your units, i.e. you place several units along the land border with the other civ(s).
The latter doesn't always help unfortunately, since the AI often sends ships with a settler on board, thus placing its cities on several small parts of the coast, which do not belong to your territory.
Building cities on these places is no option for me, cause I just don't want to have those small and useless cities the AI founds all the time.

Does anyone have further strategies to keep the AI off from "your" territory ?

On the whole, I believe that there should be a way to expand your borders without additional culture or cities, at least along the coast of your continent. I just don't want to have other civs settling on "my" coast.

Dwarf Lord

[shclo]

Not bad -especially your English if it isn't your first language.

The main thing that annoys me is the way you can be buddy buddy with everyone, have lots of trade agreements, never attack anyone, etc and they will STILL suddenly all declare war on you at the same time. It seems to me that the AI figures out who the military "weakling" is at the moment and then every civ declares war on them at the same time so that they can feast upon your land like a school of marauding piranahs. I think there should be a natural "friendliness" of countries with the same types of government so that they are far less likely to attack you for land or resource grabbing purposes.

[johnnyappleseid]

Originally posted by Dwarf Lord

Does anyone have further strategies to keep the AI off from "your" territory ?

Dwarf Lord

I'm sure we've all run into this. I've found in my last couple games, though, that a good way to prevent the AI from sneaking in those annoying little cities is to never let them see your map. When they offer, say no! Or, just buy theirs for 20 or so gold.

Anyway, if they don't know where those little patches of neutral zone are, they won't bee-line towards them.

[yyyyyy]

Is there any sense in mailing my list to Firaxis? I think they might be flooded with suggestions and just throw mine away!?


Dwarf Lord: Those tactis are the ones I use as well, but nevertheless, I want it changed so I don´t have to waste my time to trick the game MECHANICS instead of tricking the AI...

shclo: Never happened to me, but I am only in my third game so far. Actually so far no one ever declared war one me (Chieftain, Regent, Regent), only when I asked the Indiands (yes, those peace loving folks) to leave my territory they declared war.

johnnyappleseid: That might be a nice idea... have to try it in my next game, seems reasonable. Nevertheless, should be nothing more then a stop-gap-method (is it called that way???) - it has to be fixed by FIRAXIS!

[Capt Dizle]

The cowardly AI won't war on me. Makes the game so boring I am going mad.

[Venger]

Originally posted by yyyyyy
- Terraforming: Is quite nice the way it is, you can go for basics (woods to grassland) but not change the whole world (as if this would be realistic!) Heard somewhere that this has been done too make pollution more of a threat. Definitely good!

Enh, it's really to screw the player with the bogus global warming. Can someone tell me why warming makes grassland prarie and prairie desert but doesn't change tundra at all? What gives with that? I don't miss it all that much, but all in all think it should be allowed...

- Corruption: Big Issue. I like the idea that there is A LOT of corruption in certain HUGE empires and to certain governments. But IMHO it is TOO strong. It is just too sucking to cope with 1-shield-cities and the courthouses are too weak. Even Forbidden City doesn´t do too much in my games because it just helped on "one side" of the empire. Either weaken corruption at all or make it affect the COMMERCE way more then the shields. (Any official statements on this one???)

They will address it in a patch according to a Firaxis chat transcript, however apparently now that the game is out nobody at Firaxis thinks us worthy of discussion...

- Manhattan Project. Should DEFINITELY be a SMALL WONDER. I don´t like the fact that everyone knows to produce nukes once it is built. Should be a major effort for every country to build on its own!

Absolutely. I removed it altogether from Civ2 after concluding the AI would never use nukes right...

- Air Fight. Pretty cool in general (apart the apparent bugs like precision bombing and broken Air Superiority). I also STRONGLY appreciate the fact that LAND units can´t be completely wiped out by air force (they never were in reality as well!).

Not true, but whatever - I'd like a chance to wipe out 1 hp units myself.

I STRONLY dislike the fact that u can´t sink ships by airforce (yeah heard about "we did this to force players to build a navy at all") but still don´t like it. Could be solved simply with the following idea (stolen from some post): Just give it a certain chance X that a certain ship Y sinks as lons as it only has one power point left. How about this?

Absolutely the right way to do it - but what's good for the goose (ships) is good for the gander (armor units).

- Tanks vs Warrior Issue...

Already been discussed, yes, the combat system has issues...

- Subs. Pretty much useless the way they are. SO powerful units in reality. Definitely HAS to be changed.

Naval combat in general kind sucks in Civ3, it's almost an afterthought...

- Give subs and AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers the abilitiy to carry Cruise Missiles (maybe 2?), to simulate modern Sea Combat.

Only one then, otherwise they become too powerful...

- AI´s ICS. Hmmmm, I like the AI´s tendency too expand, makes it a hell of a lot tougher but it is just TOO fond on expanding. ANY STATEMENT ON THIS???

Not that I've heard. There should be some common sense rules on expanding - distance to open shore, not surrounded, etc.

Venger

[Libertarian]

...however apparently now that the game is out nobody at Firaxis thinks us worthy of discussion...

Yeah. They should be writing the patch with one hand and tending these infinitely redundant complaints, all of which have been logged and sent to them, with the other. Can't they just open two windows, one with their development tools and the other with their browser? They could read the gratuitous insults here while they touch-type their code. Gah. If they have to look at what they're typing, they need a typing class.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Libertarian

Yeah. They should be writing the patch with one hand and tending these infinitely redundant complaints, all of which have been logged and sent to them, with the other. Can't they just open two windows, one with their development tools and the other with their browser? They could read the gratuitous insults here while they touch-type their code. Gah. If they have to look at what they're typing, they need a typing class.

I'm not sure I've seen more written with so little actually said.

I imagine most everyone in here manages to have time for a full time job, and also play Civ3, and also post in here. Listening to the most active members of your game community and working on a game are NOT mutually exclusive. Witness a great many other games that have forums - MOO3 from what I hear has great developer involvement. SP:WAW has outstanding involvement. I don't think anyone is asking for every thread to have a reply, but 5 minutes of information from these guys would save days of useless speculation on our part.

Venger

[Libertarian]

I wish I could have worked in your software house. Nine to five, eh? I believe I recall Soren and Dan saying that most of their personal possessions were at the office. To get this patch out by Christmas will take the kind of effort these guys put forth. It is barbaric to criticize them for not shirking their responsibilities.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I wish I could have worked in your software house. Nine to five, eh? I believe I recall Soren and Dan saying that most of their personal possessions were at the office. To get this patch out by Christmas will take the kind of effort these guys put forth. It is barbaric to criticize them for not shirking their responsibilities.

Barbaric hyperbole aside, I seem to recall seeing these guys alot more involved before the release of the game than after. You'd think with the lion's share of the game work done, they'd have more, not less, time to discuss their product, and considering I don't think it was JUST these two guys, a little feedback in here isn't too much to ask. I also recall Brian Reynolds availablility after Civ2 was released for information in Usenet.

Guess we traded down...

Venger

[Libertarian]

I don't buy it. They have the lists from a couple of sites (this isn't the only one). The did spend time here. We demanded a patch. They're working on the patch. The electromagnetic nature of the universe precludes such miracles as being in two places at once. This ain't rocket science. Complain about the game all you want. But complaining about the guys writing the game — and its patch — is beneath any reasonable ethic.

[Dwarf Lord]

Originally posted by yyyyyy
Dwarf Lord: Those tactis are the ones I use as well, but nevertheless, I want it changed so I don´t have to waste my time to trick the game MECHANICS instead of tricking the AI...

Absolutely.

Is there any sense in mailing my list to Firaxis? I think they might be flooded with suggestions and just throw mine away!?

I generally wonder how they figure out the things which have to be changed and those which don't. Except for bugs and issues like corruption of course, which nearly everyone complains about.
Alltogether I must say that I like your list.

What I'm really missing is a pop up after each tech you have invented. Why did they take this feature out? In the previous civ games, it was cooler if you had a tech finally invented. In civ3 on the contrary, it passes like the construction of a simple town improvement. Surely, you cal look the tech up in the civilopedia, but that is a bad replacement. I want the text from the civilopedia in a huge and beautiful-looking info screen, not a crappy pop up with a drop down menu to choose the tech you are planning to invent next (or the *option* to study the tech tree - how generous...as if anyone would be naive enough to ignore the big picture.)
And I also miss the screen which appeared when you founded a city.

However, I doubt they will change things, since they are rather small atmospheric issues which are not cared about by casual players.

@johnnyappleseid: I'd never give my map away anyway, so I wonder why the AI has been programmed to sell its territory map for such a cheap price.

@Venger: If I may ask a question...how come that you are registered in 1970?

Dwarf Lord

[Venger]

Originally posted by Dwarf Lord

@Venger: If I may ask a question...how come that you are registered in 1970?

I think that at some point Apolyton changed forum programs or versions, and those people around who had accounts before that transfer/upgrade/conversion have the very early dates. I think it identifies people who have been around for a LONG while...

Also, I think it's a sign of some sort of super intellect. Wait a minute, I think AH also has that date...so THAT cannot be it...

Venger

[TCO]

Originally posted by Venger

Also, I think it's a sign of some sort of super intellect. Wait a minute, I think AH also has that date...so THAT cannot be it...

Venger

AH is not a real 1969er. He got that by mistake after a computer glitch. He's a May 1999er. 1969ers are all from before Feb15, 1999.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Venger
Enh, it's really to screw the player with the bogus global warming. Can someone tell me why warming makes grassland prarie and prairie desert but doesn't change tundra at all? What gives with that? I don't miss it all that much, but all in all think it should be allowed...

Any suggestions what it should turn grassland or prarie in? Desert immediatelly? (then we will have corruption-level whining here. Tundra turning into swan's lake? I am glad you realize too that this was a pointless whine-for-whining sake.

I STRONLY dislike the fact that u can´t sink ships by airforce (yeah heard about "we did this to force players to build a navy at all") but still don´t like it. Could be solved simply with the following idea (stolen from some post): Just give it a certain chance X that a certain ship Y sinks as lons as it only has one power point left. How about this?

although i personally like air and sea combat, i would understand if someone would suggest that a 1 hp ship has a chance of sinking every turn...

[benjy]

i know the reason they made it impossible to sink ships with air power is for balancing purposes. but instead of placing an artificial restraint on offensive aircraft, couldnt they have just made bombers more vulnerable to the defensive air power put up by ships.

i think that would have been quite realistic, and balanced. aircraft can sink ships, but history shows that ships are pretty dangerous things to attack (great modern example is the Falklands - the uk navy lost several modern destroyers to aircraft, but those ships also accounted for dozens of bombers...)

[Chronus]

Any suggestions what it should turn grassland or prarie in? Desert immediatelly?

I had a situation happen wherein global warming turned my jungle into a far more beneficial grassland. (??!)

Unfortunately, something like this should be fixed. Why tempt me to INCREASE pollution?

Also, I think it's a sign of some sort of super intellect. Wait a minute, I think AH also has that date...so THAT cannot be it...

Venger, there are days when I can't bear to read your posts. And then there are days like these . . .