Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

[IronSpam]

Just as an expansion to the idea of “real-life” Civilizations, my favorite true-to-life Civilization situation would probably be the Japanese in the 1850s. For the previous two hundred and fifty years, Japan played an isolationist posture. It went so far as to execute marooned sailors who washed up on their shores after a shipwreck. This policy served it well; Japan is probably the only Asian nation to reach the modern age without unwanted influence by the European colonial powers.

The United States sent Commodore Perry in 1853 to negotiate with the Emperor to open up its borders to trade. The encounter resulted not only in a treaty with America, but a realization at the leadership level that Japan was technologically behind the other powers. So a new government pushed for economic and social reforms, which included the collapsing the old samurai caste system. It also sent students to Western universities to learn about their culture and technology.

Not only did the Japanese modernize, they did so on their own terms, instead of being forced to do it by means of Western subjugation or conflict with a major power. Within a half a century it became the first non-European nation to defeat a European power in war. (Ok, it was the Russians, but still.) Now if there’s a Civilization-minded deity or spirit behind all the moves that happen in history, he (or she) was definitely at work clicking that mouse with Japan in the late 19th Century.

Japan's human rights abuses in Asia and its record in the Second World War shouldn't detract from the story of its remarkably fast progress. Perhaps those actions and the attitudes that come along with them were simply a remnant of the previous culture that it had abandoned. In any case, Japan became a true modern nation when in the 20th Century it, albeit forcefully, abandoned its militaristic ways and became an industrial power.

I’m glad that the official Civ 3 site made mention of the westernization of Japan in their Civ of the Week feature. In my opinion, Japan’s conversion from a feudalistic and agricultural old world country to a modern industrial power is probably the second greatest success story of the modern age. Of course, we all know which one number one would be.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by IronSpam
Within a half a century it became the first non-European nation to defeat a European power in war. (Ok, it was the Russians, but still.)

The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ecthelion


The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812

But the Americans at that point in their country's illustrious history, were hardly as non-Euro as for instance, the Japanese, the Zulus, the Vietnamese, the Afghans....

Also, the Russo-Japanese War and success for Japan had more to do with the deficiencies of the Czarist navy, and the defeat at Tsushima might have something to do with a large part of the Russian fleet having had to sail from the Baltic to get to the Pacific theatre of operations. Oh, and then there was a certain sneak attack by the Japanese, a tactic that may be familiar to some people...but which at the time, drew praise from both the British and the Americans. Incidentally, much of the Japanese fleet was built in British shipyards.

As for modernizing, a certain Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, deserves more than a little kudos...

www.ifb.net/webit/glover.htm

http://www.ox.compsoc.net/~gemini/si...russo-war.html

www.asia.si.edu/exhibitions/wellwatchedwar.htm

http://www.artelino.com/articles/jap...war_prints.asp

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/romeo...panese1904.htm

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812

When he said none European I think he meant none western. Yes, the Brits burned the White House but not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by molly bloom
As for modernizing, a certain Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, deserves more than a little kudos...

Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we? What cheek Firaxis had to include an English civ but not a Scottish one (or even a British one). Grrr...

[dexters]

well, returning to topic and not letting this thread degenerate into another I have an older penis than you so my penis must be superior,

Japan's rise as a global power is best contrasted with China's decline.

The whole trust of the great explorations starting from the middle of the second millenia has been to find a sea route to China and the riches of the orient. They of course founded the New World, a term coined by Amerigo Vespucci, who later had his name latinized by cartographer Martin Waldseemueller who published a map that designated the new world as America. anyways...

Japan's rise as an Imperial power was very much due to the realization of the the elite, that the country needed to modernize. Like China, there was great resistance against change. Whereas in China the anti-reformist succeded, culmunating in the murder of a reformist Emperor, in Japan, the Shogunate was overthrown and the young Emperor Meiji re-established control over Japan and began an era of massive social, economic and technological reforms in Japan.

As for military successes, Japan was never the best military power but it was a great military power. The Japanese were able to dominate Asia because the European powers by the early 1900s has decimated each other in World War I, and the fortresses in the far east were deteriorating from lack of funds and lack of manpower.

One thing that should be said is that the IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy) had for a time, been the world's finest naval power, especially in the area of naval aviation with its highly trained veteran pilots who had fought in the war in China and the sheer size of its carrier fleet that dwarfed all the naval powes until World War II.

[Dauphin]

Oerdin,

Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we?

not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.

I am aware of your Scottish background but these statements are inconsistent.

You want to have your cake and eat it!

[dexters]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Oerdin,

Quote:

Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we?

Quote:

not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.

I am aware of your Scottish background but these statements are inconsistent.

You want to have your cake and eat it!

That is what most foreigners do not understand about Americans.

They can be proud of their heritage from whatever their ancentors came from originally but still be fiercely loyal to the idea, the institutions and the people of America.

On the same note, most critics of Americans can't have their cake and eat it too. They criticize Americans for their flagwaving nationalism but ignore the fact that 90% of the population in America are immigrants from somewhere else on this planet.

When they are making posts about "Remove Americans from Civ III" these same people say America doesn't deserve to be a Civilization because it "doesn't have culture"

The former is inconsistent with the latter. But it would seem people here only seem to remember things when it suits their purposes.

the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.

[Dauphin]

Get real.

If an American says "we whipped British ass in war x", and then proceeds to claim only things that are great about Britain, it is ridiculous.

They must also claim the defeat, that is the British defeat, by the Americans aswell. Else it is selective nationalism.

the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.

[Dauphin]

The former is inconsistent with the latter. But it would seem people here only seem to remember things when it suits their purposes

In terms of culture, I would complain about them too, but I hate talking to brick walls.

With regards the game aspect the fact that Americans are a mix of other cultures means that they are already represented by other civs. I would accept that argument as consistent even though I don't agree with it.


Anyway back to Japan.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Get real.

If an American says "we whipped British ass in war x", and then proceeds to claim only things that are great about Britain, it is ridiculous.

They must also claim the defeat, that is the British defeat, by the Americans aswell. Else it is selective nationalism.

Quote:

the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.

His statements are not in support of the Brits, but against them. But that doesn't mean he can be proud of his scottish heritage either, something which you seem to take issue with.

It's not selective nationalism. I'm not even sure you understood his posts. Go back and re-read what Oerdin posted.

post # 1

When he said none European I think he meant none western. Yes, the Brits burned the White House but not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.

post #2

Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we? What cheek Firaxis had to include an English civ but not a Scottish one (or even a British one). Grrr...

[Dauphin]

His statements are not in support of the Brits, but against them

Thats my point. He is against Brits and then claims part of British heritage namely the actions of "a Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun". I am merely saying that its not a pick and mix.

something which you seem to take issue with.

He can claim Scottish heritage, but surely it has to be taken as a whole, including being "stopped butt cold in the the Carolinas" and "humilated in Lousiana". Is that not also part of Scottish history?

[Dr. Nick]

Actually, the Afghans beat the English twice in the period 1850-1870.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Thats my point. He is against Brits and then claims part of British heritage namely the actions of "a Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun". I am merely saying that its not a pick and mix.

And similarly, my point stands. Most Americans and Canadians do feel proud of their heritage. I have a friend who is of Scottish descent, he's proud of it, he's got pictures of his grandparents back in the old country, but he's also a fierce Canadian nationalist. I myself is a first generation immigrant, and I will tell you I consider my mother country a foreign country, because my loyalties are with my new county although I still keep many of the traditions and folklore of the old.

what makes North America such a diverse place, despite the old misconception of it having no culture, is when vastly different cultures merge and collide, a new synthesis is formed. I see it everyday. We have a large and growing Asian population here, probably the largest outside South East Asia, and what we add to the grand scheme of things is only now being felt. It's certainly more than the Zen craze of the hippie era, its what Academics called Techno-Orientalism. The vision of a highly advanced society, living in perfect harmony with technology.

I don't want to sound condescending, but if you're not in North America, where the immirgrant tradition is strong, because everyone who lives here are practically immigrants, or descendants of immagrints, and people find having strong feelings for the mother country and its heritage is perfectly consistent with nationalistic feelings for Canada or the United States, then you probably don't get it. Leave the matter at that.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by dexters
I don't want to sound condescending, but if you're not in North America, where the immirgrant tradition is strong, because everyone who lives here are practically immigrants, or descendants of immagrints, and people find having strong feelings for the mother country and its heritage is perfectly consistent with nationalistic feelings for Canada or the United States, then you probably don't get it. Leave the matter at that.

Just so you know, I lived in Japan until I was four then I lived in Connecticut until the age of 11 (I am now 22). I have also been to all but 12 US States. In the past seven years I have visited the US on 12 (3 week+ vacations/trips) from San Diego to Boston, Seattle to Key West. I currently live near London, England.

I still feel that national history and heritage that a person should rememember include wars that that nation has fought.

[Dauphin]

Put another way, if German immigrants arrived in the US in 1946, then they can say "we beat the Germans in WW2", then it is equally valid to say "we lost to the Americans in WW2". To say one without the other is a mistruth for a descendant claiming German heritage and history.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Put another way, if German immigrants arrived in the US in 1946, then they can say "we beat the Germans in WW2", then it is equally valid to say "we lost to the Americans in WW2". To say one without the other is a mistruth for a descendant claiming German heritage and history.

Well, you miss the point entirely. You seem well travelled, but I don't think you quite get what an American is. Perhaps there is a difference between living in a country on a temporary basis and living there because your family, or your ancestors moved there to stay permanently.

If the German immigrants had arrived in 1946, and believe me, there were plenty who fled Germany even before World War II broke out, they could say many things, including "We [Americans] beat Hitler's Germany (not the German people)"

The point being immigrants arrive on their own free will. There is usually a contributing factor to them leaving their old home, economic, political or otherwise. When they arrive on these shores, there is a different kind of mentality, perhaps one could say, a kind of disdain for where they came from, but that translates only in loyalty in their new land, not disdain for the culture, people and traditions of their mother country.

That is why China Town, Little Italys, Russian Quarters are a fixture in major North American cities. People come here to build a new life, and in the process, they also build a country, but whatever misgivings they may have had with their old country, it does not bleed over to the cultural aspects of theirlives.

[Dauphin]

I will take one more shot before we agree to disagree. Just answer me this:

If an American of country Y descent, in this case Scottish descent, claims person X, in this case Thomas Blake Glover, as a fellow, then why stop there. Surely all the Scottish peoples/inventors/entrepreneurs/writers (and their actions) should be fellows?

Hence would a Scottish immigrant claim the actions of William Wallace as part of (his) Scottish history/heritage. (I defy any Scot, home or abroad to say no ) If yes then why not the actions of Scots who lost battles in the USA during the revolutionary and post war years?

BTW Oerdin, what do you think?

[dexters]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
I will take one more shot before we agree to disagree. Just answer me this:

If an American of country Y descent, in this case Scottish descent, claims person X, in this case Thomas Blake Glover, as a fellow, then why stop there. Surely all the Scottish peoples/inventors/entrepreneurs/writers (and their actions) should be fellows?

Hence would a Scottish immigrant claim the actions of William Wallace as part of (his) Scottish history/heritage. (I defy any Scot, home or abroad to say no ) If yes then why not the actions of Scots who lost battles in the USA during the revolutionary and post war years?

BTW Oerdin, what do you think?

I'm not going to ramble on. Let me just say, you won't get it until you yourself is an immigrant.

[nibbles]

well technically as the War of Independence was that a war of Independence, there wasn’t any Americans in the War of Independence it was more Settlers V Britain as the US as a Nation didn’t exist, indeed many of the Settlers would off been 1st /2nd generation so in effect it was more akin to a Civil War than anything else.
Also there wasn’t a War of Independence in the USA , there was a War in the Colonies would be more accurate, as the USA didn’t exist at that point.
By the way the Zulus didn’t win any wars, Brave though.

I actually long for the Day when there isn’t the distinction Italian Americans, African Americans or Irish Americans but just Americans who no matter there roots class America as there Origin.

That will the day when America comes off Age it seems that due to this Cultural/ Lack of History thing a lot of the people in the US still cling to where there roots of there origin. Make where you are now the commonality between people.
Im English/Irish living in England but i class myself as English. Why because im spent a total of 4 weeks in Ireland out of 27 years, my Education my life has been in England ( even though with many Irish Descendants in the UK ) even though im proud of my Irish roots i cant pretend to be Irish, my blood maybe but culturally im not.
Again i have more in common with English / Irish English / West Indian English etc than i do with say English ex pats living in the US / i would say those English Ex Pats living in the US have more in common with Italian Americans than they do with me.

Culture / History is an assimilation of groups that provide a common identity , i think eventually this symbolic link of many Americans with there ancestral home will eventually come to an end and then it will evolve into a shared American culture.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Oerdin,

Quote:

Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we?

Quote:

not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.

I am aware of your Scottish background but these statements are inconsistent.

You want to have your cake and eat it!

Sagacious,
LOl, yes you are correct. I guess we'll have to chalk it up to the dichotomy of hiphonated Americanism... (As in Scottish-American)

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
I will take one more shot before we agree to disagree. Just answer me this:

If an American of country Y descent, in this case Scottish descent, claims person X, in this case Thomas Blake Glover, as a fellow, then why stop there. Surely all the Scottish peoples/inventors/entrepreneurs/writers (and their actions) should be fellows?

I most certainly do claim them.

Hence would a Scottish immigrant claim the actions of William Wallace as part of (his) Scottish history/heritage. (I defy any Scot, home or abroad to say no ) If yes then why not the actions of Scots who lost battles in the USA during the revolutionary and post war years?

BTW Oerdin, what do you think?

And I claim those fellows as well, however, to avoid logical inconsistencies I am forced to prioritize my allegencies with my loyalty to the U.S. taking precidence over the U.K. when the two are in conflict.

As the Dukes of Burgondy found out in the middle ages it is difficult to serve two masters.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I most certainly do claim them..

Even the baddies who fought to prevent American from having independence!

Oh wait, they were co-erced.