New Civs where they belong

[bigvic]

Preface - I origionally posted this in the "creation" forum, then just found this, probably more appropriate area. Hope I'm not hogging too much.


27-11-2001 16:19

Suggestions for New Concepts

I would like to make this a sort of workshop of ideas for expansion and additions to the civ III, as well as a suggestion box for Firaxis. I'm always looking to ruin my gaming experience by adding more options and complicating life , so be forewarned. Hopefully more programming savvy types will take some of these ideas and run with them. Currently I'm playing with ancient's 1.5 patch with three new gov's and numerous other additions and alterations. Highly recommended.
The first topic I'd like to throw out is the idea of alternate civs. I've come up with several ideas for alternate civs and here they are for your input. I'd like to end up with 16 alternates, a nice, symmetrical number. In the process I have tried to include all 15 different combinations of civ emphasis, with one repeat, which was not militeristic/religious, as both the Japanese and Aztecs already have that. This may have led to some "making it fit" decisions, but again, I'm aiming for symmetry. I've also wanted to exclude more modern civs, like Australia, etc., for purely aesthetic, historical reasons.
What follows is a list of my ideas, with civ name, emphasis, and signature unit. Again, please submit suggestions.

Vikings - militaristic/scientific - longship: ability to enter sea tiles upon discovery of astronomy

Celts - industrious/religious - highlander(?): warrior, 2-1-1 or 1-2-1.

Dutch - industrious/scientific - merchantman: galleon, +1 to move or attack, or some kind of improved privateer

Spanish - expansionist/religious - conquistador: explorar, increased combat abilities, or Spanish galleon(?), or tercio, musket man, 2 - 5 - 1

Portuguese - commercial/industrious - far trader: caravel, +1 to attack or move

Phoenecians - commercial/militaristic - pentakonter: galley, +1 to attack

Hebrews - religious/scientific - armored infantry: mech infantry, +1 or 2 to attack

Arabs - expansionist/religious - camel warrior: chariot, 1-1-3

Turks - militaristic/religious - Janissary: pikeman, 2-3-1

Songhai (west African) - expansionist/industrious - ??????, possibly some kind of horseman, 2-2-2

Maya - commercial/scientific - ?????(eagle warrior, 2-1-1 or 1-2-1 warrior????)

Inca - expansionist/scientific - ????(sun knight, spearman, 2-2-1???)

Polynesian - expansionist/commercial - outrigger: galley, +1 move

Mongol - expansionist/militaristic - golden horde: horseman 2-2-3

Indochinese - industrious/militaristic - guerilla: infantry, no rubber required

Abbysinian (Sudan/Ethiopia) - commercial/religious - dervish: swordsman, 3-2-2

These are the 16 I have come up with. Three more possibilities just dawned on me...

Polish - expansionistic/industrious - lancer: knight 4-3-3 or cavalry 7-2-3

Swiss - commercial/industrious - guards: pikeman 1-4-1

Mexican - expansionistic/religious? - guerrerro: rifleman, no saltpeter needed.

Well, thats it for now. Other possible topics include, changes in colonies, inclusion of higher tech corruption reducing improvements, and, ???




bigvic
Settler


Nov 2001

30-11-2001 16:04

more ideas

I feel a bit pathetic responding to my own post. Its sort of like being the maytag man, I guess. Anyway, I came up w/a few ruminations. I think the Spanish unit should be the tercio, a beefed up pikeman w/ 2-3-1 stats. The Turkish janissary should therefore be an upgunned archer, stats 5-1-1. Also, I ran across some stuff about bastardizing sprites from other games. Looks like its a massive pain, but, if anyone figures out how to do it, could provide good options for alt civ special units. What follows, off the top of my head, are a few ideas.
Viking longship - longship, ctp
Celt highlander - infidel berserker, tot, fantasy campaign
Dutch merchantman - ctp I/II ship of the line
Portuguese far trader - ? ctp II caravel?
Spanish Tercio - ctpII pikeman
Phoenecian pentakonter - ctp II fire trireme or longship
Arab camel rider - ????????????
Songhai (horse something?) - persian horseman from ctp II Alexander scenario
Abbysinian dervish - fanatic from civ II
Mongol golden horde - horseman from ctp
Hebrew armored infantry - tank from civII
Indochinese guerrilla - partisan from civII
Polynesian outrigger - coracle from ctpII
Mayan eagle warrior - warrior frm ctpI
Inca sun knight - ???

This kind of got me thinking about some other holes in the system. I think there should be a specific unit, upgradeable from longbowman or swordsman, to infantryman. The ctpII infantryman sprite got me thinking of something like a "grenadier", a 4-2-1 unit to help plug a gap. Also some kind of unit that could plug the gap from ironclad to battleship/destroyer, like a "dreadnought", using the ctpII ironclad sprite. Well, thats it.

[Q Classic]

dutch? swiss? poles? mexicans?

no koreans?

must fix:

------

koreans: scientific/commercial, industrious, or religious, i haven't decided - Kobukson: frigate, 3-3-3, saltpeter, iron.

[bigvic]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
dutch? swiss? poles? mexicans?

no koreans?

must fix:

------

koreans: scientific/commercial, industrious, or religious, i haven't decided - Kobukson: frigate, 3-3-3, saltpeter, iron.

Sorry. I thought about them, but couldn't figure out a signature unit. I pride myself w/ being a big history know-it-all, but...
BTW- whats a kobukson, anyway (other than a frigate, 3-3-3)?

[Q Classic]

double post.

[Q Classic]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=33965

this should explain it all.

[Gromit]

What's the obsession ppl seem to have with Korea? Really, I want to know, did I miss something?

[Q Classic]

here's a thought... read the thread regarding korea?

[Odin]

The Vikings should be Comercial and Expansionist. They were acutually more explorers than warriors.

[Panzer]

Dutch should be commercial. As for industrious or scientific: I'll leave that up to you.

[Gromit]

Yes, I get it now.

[Libertarian]

The Hillbillies

Expanionist/Commercial

Special unit: Granny with a Shotgun — (special infantry) 7-6-1

[tomcat ha]

the Jantisars (turkish UU)
shoud replace Musketman and Rileman.
that is then historical correct.

[bigvic]

Thanks for the posts. I don't feel like the Maytag man anymore . Anyway, keep it up. At some point I'll accumulate all this stuff and do some polls. Well keep it coming. I have to bust out of here now, the boss is coming.

[tomcat ha]

the turks shoud be scientific and expansionist or religous.
When the Ottoman empire was at it`s hight.
the science was waaaaaaaaaay higer than the european average

[bigvic]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
here's a thought... read the thread regarding korea?

Wow! You have me convinced. Good work. I wish your pic worked on the turlte ship. Could you e-mail me? For all others, check out the thread Q Cubed mentioned above, good stuff.

BTW - I've been thinking of alternate special units for existing civs also.

*England - pirate (tougher privateer) or line infantry (rifleman 3-7-1 -"thin red line")
*France - guards (rifleman - 4-6-1) or cannon corps (cannon +1 bombard - Napoleon's specialty)
*Russia - heavy artillery (atillery +1 bombard)
*Japanese - pre-dreadnaught (ironclad, +1 attck, could use sprite of ironclad from ctpII - as per Japanese ships used to destroy Russian fleet at Tsushima, 1905)
*American - GI (infantry, +1 or +2 attck - M-1 Garand equipped infantry from WWII)

[Q Classic]

http://www.pennfamily.org/KSS-USA/hist-map6.html
http://deall.ohio-state.edu/culture/eall131/related.htm
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1540.htm
http://warmemo.co.kr/choson_dynasty.htm
http://www.advanced-taekwondo.net/choonus.htm

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Libertarian
The Hillbillies

Expanionist/Commercial

Special unit: Granny with a Shotgun — (special infantry) 7-6-1

[siredgar]

That's one tough granny there-- 7.6.1.

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by Libertarian
The Hillbillies

Expanionist/Commercial

Special unit: Granny with a Shotgun — (special infantry) 7-6-1

they understand commerce?

i'd say militaristic, maybe give them a militia unit too

[bigvic]

Anyone interested in the history of the thing, which would be most, I suppose, check out Qcubed's websites on Korean history, esp. the turtle ship of Admiral Yi. I'm convinced.
Koreans: industrious, commercial- special unit: turtle ship, caravel, +2 attack Anyone care to come up with a city list?

Ok, I've been doing some research. One of the civs I suggested was "Songhai", a West African civ from the middle ages. Upon researching the topic a bit, I've decided to call it the Sahel, the name of the region in general, since the Songhai were only the third of three similar, successive empires than arose and fell in the area from around 900 A.D., til roughly 1600 A.D..
The first was the Ghana empire. They, like their two successor states, grew rich and powerful off the trade, in gold, ivory, gems and slaves, passing north and south to and from the Medeterranean/Islamic world and Central Africa. Some of its cities included Timbuktu (the capital), Jenne-Jono, and Kumbi Saleh. The Ghana was the king, like the Inca, half a world away, and the succesion of the royal family was matriarchal, the son of the king's sister having the right to succeed to the throne. This was the practice of the two succeding civs as well. They were anti Islamic, and finally succumbed to an Islamic Berber (another possible alt. civ) invasion around 1100.
The fsecond was the empire of Mali, founded by a fellow named Sundiata, "Lion King", a magician. It reached its hieght under Mansu Musa, who was a devout Muslim, and whose extravagant pilgrimage to Mecca was much discussed in the Islamic world, and who sponsered extensive public works, includung mosques, and universities. Some cities and regions included Senegal, Mande, Gao, Djenne. It was charactarized as a rather loose empire. It also succumbed to the Berbers in 14 68.
The final chapter was the Songhai. Founded around 1500, by Sonni Ali, they were a much more tightly woven empire, renowned for excellent light cavalry and swift ships (?, need to research these more for possible special units). Under Muhammed Toure, founder of the Askia dynasty, government was centralized with a formal beauracracy, and weights and measures were standardized. It reached its height from 1549 - 1582 and was the largest empire in African history. Once again, however, the Berbers, in the guise of the Morrocans, ended the party in 1591.

So, what you think? More to come. Feel free to contribute similar stuff!

[ntyatecafe]

Originally posted by bigvic
*England - pirate (tougher privateer) or line infantry (rifleman 3-7-1 -"thin red line")
*France - guards (rifleman - 4-6-1) or cannon corps (cannon +1 bombard - Napoleon's specialty)
*Russia - heavy artillery (atillery +1 bombard)
*Japanese - pre-dreadnaught (ironclad, +1 attck, could use sprite of ironclad from ctpII - as per Japanese ships used to destroy Russian fleet at Tsushima, 1905)
*American - GI (infantry, +1 or +2 attck - M-1 Garand equipped infantry from WWII)

Good idea on Russia! I used to teach Soviet artillery tactics and capabilities when I was in the Army. They center all of their tactics around their artillery. The special unit I'd suggest for them would be either the 2S7 (Self-Propelled 203mm Artillery with range of 50 km [RAP]), or the 9A52 (Self-Propelled MRLS with 12 tubes and range of 70 km, and special submunitions).

as far as America goes, what about the M1 Abrahm's Main Battle Tank? One of the most sophisticated in the world with Hunter/Killer systems, laser range and guidance, auto-tracking, reinforced special armor, high speed, and the ability to fire while moving? (of course the main problem with these has always been getting them to the battlefield).

[Plan Austral]

Incas
should be industrious and expansionist
Mayas
religious and scientific.

[siredgar]

The Portuguese are more likely commercial and expansionist, while the Koreans are probably scientific and religious.

[Bilo]

Originally posted by tomcat ha
the Jantisars (turkish UU)
shoud replace Musketman and Rileman.
that is then historical correct.

I disagree with that. The Jannisaries were the infantry of the Ottoman army form mid 14th to 18th century, they were gone long before rifles were used. Allthough they used firearms they mostly fought hand to hand (espetially in the early years of the Ottoman Empire). However, I think the UU of a Turkish/Ottoman civ should be its light cavalry(Sipahi) , because giving a defansive UU to a aggresive civ does not make much sense.

Also, at the height of the Ottoman empire majority of the army was light cavalty who were armed with javelins(or sometimes with bows) and swords. They were succesfull against the Europian powers, because a fast-moving cavalry with ranged attack is unstopable with infantry and able to outmaneuver opposing heavy cavalry to attack their flanks. "Sipahi", a 4/2/3 unit that replaces knights and costs the same(both shields and resources) would be better, I belive.

[bigvic]

Thats an interesting point. Sipahi probably would be a more historically accurate UU. I juat hate to give up on the janissary. Some people who aren't exactly history savvy actually recognize the word janissary, though I doubt many know what it was. For this reason, the sort of archetypal nature of the word, I still think the janissary would be best. There is something undeniably cool about Christian slave kids raised to be kick*ss Islamic shock troops. I think they should be like longbowmen, w/2 defence.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by bigvic
Portuguese - commercial/industrious - far trader: caravel, +1 to attack or move

Portuguese Industrious?

No, my friend. Absolutely not. Never in our history so far.
We were more like expansionists. That's why our empire streched from the Amazon river fountain to Macau. That's pretty much the world in width.
But commercial, yes, absolutely! The Portuguese expanded so far exactly to trade for valuable items!

[Bilo]

Originally posted by bigvic
Thats an interesting point. Sipahi probably would be a more historically accurate UU. I juat hate to give up on the janissary. Some people who aren't exactly history savvy actually recognize the word janissary, though I doubt many know what it was. For this reason, the sort of archetypal nature of the word, I still think the janissary would be best. There is something undeniably cool about Christian slave kids raised to be kick*ss Islamic shock troops. I think they should be like longbowmen, w/2 defence.

Making the janissary to replace the longbowman is much better than having a pikeman(which is a unit that rarely attacks) with one extra attack. However, 4/2/1 for 40 shilds that can be built after invention is nothing but a expensive immortal that comes late and does not require iron. Giving it an extra attack value and making it 5/1/1 might be a better option; after all janissaries were most often used to attack castles and other fortified positions, and they should be able to take out a pikeman in a town with walls.

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
dutch? swiss? poles? mexicans?

no koreans?

must fix:

------

koreans: scientific/commercial, industrious, or religious, i haven't decided - Kobukson: frigate, 3-3-3, saltpeter, iron.

just a quick question: isn't it Kobuksuh?

[Q Classic]

alas, i cannot type the korean characters, but no, i'm quite sure it's kobukson, at least, as i romanize it.

iirc, the word looks somewhat like this:

arg, i tried doing this with ascii, then with smilies, it's not going to work. :/

first character.

[Veracitas]

lol, ok, i wasn't sure if there was a "ni eun" at the end...

now i know