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Old December 10, 2001, 05:31   #61
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Re: Re: giving away dummy cities
Quote:
Originally posted by Ahlyis

Anyway, it IS an exploit, but it is NOT a cheat. The gold bug is an obvious bug since there is no way the AI could possibly pay that much gold per turn. In this case though, the AI simply wasn't smart enough to recognize what was going on. Sounds like a brilliant strategy that obviously needed to be fixed, but accusing someone of cheating because they discovered it seems ridiculous to me. Are you saying that any time I find a weakness in the AI and use that to my advantage, I'm a cheater?
The thing with this particular exploit is that it really messes up the game.It's one thing to gain a few techs earlier by unfair trading, and another to completely wipe ALL civs in 8 turns(exept their capitals).
And that is what I did in a game, by using this strategy.
It does not matter that I was the last in score at that point, after ten turns I was the absolute ruler of the world.After that point I could have obtained any victory type, I could go for culture, or for expansion or anything.
And I think that most of us already knew that the AI is very found of foreign cities, and often giving away a size 3 city will make him trade all that he has (money, tech,maps).
So what marty did, it's just extended the "range of action" of this exploit.
While this is not a cheat, nor is a "briliant strategy".
And it sure is a bug, because it alters completely the whole scope of the game.
I could win with this any game on any map on any difficulty level without needing to know much about the game.
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Old December 10, 2001, 11:35   #62
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Quote:
For those who were mistaken, your first mistake was assuming nobody had any new super strategies/tricks.
If you continually allude to superstrategies that only you have been clever enough to discover -- and continually and conspicuously refrain from discussing those strategies, people will continue to be skeptical. Those who've been here for a while have seen one-shot-wonder "great scores" from people with mystery strategies but who mysteriously can't beat anyone in MP. People are going to be especially skeptical of a save game in which you waged 5 wars at the nearly the same time (300BC-200BC) and wrapped them all up so quickly since it looks like you just changed the MOD file to make your offensive units temporarily invincible.
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Old December 10, 2001, 13:11   #63
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Re: Re: Re: giving away dummy cities
Quote:
Originally posted by cgrecu


The thing with this particular exploit is that it really messes up the game.It's one thing to gain a few techs earlier by unfair trading, and another to completely wipe ALL civs in 8 turns(exept their capitals).

So what marty did, it's just extended the "range of action" of this exploit.
While this is not a cheat, nor is a "briliant strategy".
And it sure is a bug, because it alters completely the whole scope of the game.
I could win with this any game on any map on any difficulty level without needing to know much about the game.
Agreed. This strategy completely unbalances the game and I'm glad they fixed the AI in the patch.

My whole point was that this is NOT a cheat. While I completely agree that it should be banned or fixed (as it is in the patch), I felt strongly that calling someone a cheater for discovering and using it was ludicrous. I would only consider making full use of an exploit as cheating if the tournament rules specifically forbid the use of that particular exploit. This tournament had not such stipulation, so it was not cheating.
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Old December 10, 2001, 16:03   #64
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OCC Diplomatic Victory in 1808. Score: 1213

The English were useless on this map! Expansionistic is a useless characteristic without huts on a small, nearly luxury-less island.

In addition to the civ choice, the poor starting location and no other civs being on the original island made OCC quite difficult. I think the Indians were only one turn away from building the UN when I finished it.

As a result of these factors, I was never able to take a tech lead after about 500BC. However, buying whatever the new technology may be at a given time and then immediately selling it to all the other civs was even more luvrative than usual.

After the Germans and Indians made peace sometime around 750AD, there wasn't much warfare in the game, which was bad for me since it resulted in accerlated tech advancement for the Indians. I thought about it for a long time, but I simply couldn't imagine a scenario where convincing other civs to go to war would be worth it, considering almost all of them had at least one outpost near London.

After I won by Diplomacy, I tried to see if I could win by culuture, since the target date for a culture victory was only 1865 or so, and the other civs had not made much progress on spaceships. However, in 1832 the Indians landed a large force on my island and wiped me out without any warning or cause. Thus, I must revert back to my less exciting Diplomatic victory. I'm not sure I would have achieved 20,000 befoe spaceships were launched anyway.

Overall, I'm glad its over. Now I know never to play the English again, and I can download the patch!
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Old December 10, 2001, 16:45   #65
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OCC Diplomatic Victory in 1808. Score: 1213

The English were useless on this map! Expansionistic is a useless characteristic without huts on a small, nearly luxury-less island.

In addition to the civ choice, the poor starting location and no other civs being on the original island made OCC quite difficult. I think the Indians were only one turn away from building the UN when I finished it.

As a result of these factors, I was never able to take a tech lead after about 500BC. However, buying whatever the new technology may be at a given time and then immediately selling it to all the other civs was even more luvrative than usual.

After the Germans and Indians made peace sometime around 750AD, there wasn't much warfare in the game, which was bad for me since it resulted in accerlated tech advancement for the Indians. I thought about it for a long time, but I simply couldn't imagine a scenario where convincing other civs to go to war would be worth it, considering almost all of them had at least one outpost near London.

After I won by Diplomacy, I tried to see if I could win by culuture, since the target date for a culture victory was only 1865 or so, and the other civs had not made much progress on spaceships. However, in 1832 the Indians landed a large force on my island and wiped me out without any warning or cause. Thus, I must revert back to my less exciting Diplomatic victory. I'm not sure I would have achieved 20,000 befoe spaceships were launched anyway.

Overall, I'm glad its over. Now I know never to play the English again, and I can download the patch!
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Old December 11, 2001, 01:42   #66
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I am at a point in the game where I can call a vote for the diplomatic win, but if I carried on I could probably get a spaceship or conquest victory also.

Can I submit both victories, since they're from the same game it's not a restart, or am I only allowed to pick one to submit?
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Old December 11, 2001, 02:07   #67
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Old December 11, 2001, 10:36   #68
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Whew! Two weeks is cutting it a little close, even for someone who has a goodly amount of time to play. I gave up sleep on one night to continue playing this thing.

Hmm. English? This was quite a departure from the other few games of Civ III I've played so far. Lot of ground, lot of cities to build, but widely scattered, mostly weak terrain, pretty tough to defend. I have quite a bit to say about my adventure with this game -- too much to fit it all here. So the complete report will be hosted on my own aborning Civ III site:

Sirian's Great Library

Here's a brief summary. (Yes, for me, this is brief. No snickering, please). I played expansionist style. Rushed to Map Making at 32 turns each, then rushed out bronze working and ceremonial burial at max tech rate, and whipped all my useless new colonies into producing a temple at the first chance via rush building. My second city alternated workers and warriors at size 1 and 2 for many centuries while I concentrated on settlers (no granary) with London. Once I got to bronze working, I built the granary in London and alternated between settlers and spearmen there, while my third city built a barracks and built nothing else but veteran spearmen. The Iroquois landed one city on the northwest corner of the west isle. I had control of the rest of "my" land, plus I had landed two colonies at the luxury sites on the northeast coast of the Indian continent to the south. One of those was rather close to my capital and I had high hopes for it. The other was too far away, so I purposely planned never to grow it beyond six, as it was on a hill and I would use walls to help defend it. I spotted ivory as yet unclaimed on the west end of the iroquois continent but did not believe I could hold that, so I didn't bother to go for it.

Wise choice, as it was all I could do to hold off the extremely aggressive Indians on their own continent through two different major wars. Sweating bullets there, reinforcements repeatedly arriving with at most one turn to spare before the cities might have fallen without them. Took some hefty losses and spent a lot of gold on rushing barracks, artillery and troops. Had to trade for better tech in BOTH wars to upgrade my defensive units, to be able to hold on. I didn't touch any wonders and didn't plan to. Magellan's was the one I wanted, and I made sure to grab it, sparking a golden age that boosted me to first place, from which I never looked back. I hunkered down in a consolidation and building phase. Lack of horses left me with scant offensive options anyway, and even my defense was pressed against those elephants. Had to counterattack against the wounded elephants and cavalry with bowmen and riflemen, to finish some of them off (at some nasty cost), in the second war, or they'd have just recycled them endlessly and wore me down. Two turns after I got tanks (FINALLY an offensive unit! Good grief) I marched out seven of them against the Indians, my hated enemy and most dangerous scientific rival, and my quest for world conquest was underway. (Ha, take that, you treachorous !@#$!)

Domination victory in 1880. No other civ made it into the modern era. None of them got past combustion. Germany and Iroquois eliminated, Russia and India reduced to one city apiece on tiny islands. Score: 3573. Complete report, and additional saved games from other time periods, will be available on my site within the week, if not sooner.


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Old December 11, 2001, 21:28   #69
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Tried OCC with this one, using strict OCC rules, and also playing with the new patch with the longer max research time of 40 turns. Not having any luxuries or resources made it a challenge to build that rocket first, but London was on a river and on the coast, making an OCC game viable. Launch was in 2018, leaving much room for improvement, as did the final score of 345 pts. At the end my city was producing 298 beakers and had accumulated 16884 points of culture.

Oops, started reading comments after submission, and now realize games using the new patch are taboo. Please disregard this submission.
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Old December 12, 2001, 15:54   #70
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No submission from me this time
*sigh* I guess I'm just not ready for Monarch.

The whole game saw me struggling behind the other civilizations. I couldn't reach a single objective, was continuously beaten to Great wonders by 2 to 5 turns, never had any strategical resources (except iron and coal, the latter disappearing five turn after I discovered it), basically never had the leverage to accomplish anything, and weren't skilled enough to overcome all these setbacks.

It became quite clear that a diplomatic victory was my only chance, but the Indians built the UN 7 turns before me. Unfortunately my nation is not large enough to be electable, so there went my last chance. I don't have the resources to start a war, my culture is non-existent, and my cities don't produce half as much shields as those of some other nations. So I'll count that as a loss, install the patch, play some more games at regent level and hope the next next tournament will be easier.

Till next time
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Old December 12, 2001, 20:34   #71
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Diplomatic Victory Score: 2617
After a slow start, the English only managed to settle the main island and the one to the east. The Iroquois managed to land two cities on the east island and hence set themselves up to become the victims of the English' first military campaign (the first war ever in recorded history). 6 Iroquois cities were razed or captured amidst the bloodshed. Having met their objectives and secured 3 islands, peace was negotiated.

Having fallen drastically behind in technology in ancient times followed by a costly but rewarding military campaign, the English resorted to playing the role of banker from the moment of contact with other civilizations through to the modern age. This allowed the English to enjoy specialization in marketplaces and banks. Add to that interest from money lending, the resulting 300 gold per turn surplus undoubtedly shifted the balance in the Iroquios campaign. The military campaign's benefits together with continued lending carried the English through to the late industrial age as one of the three major leaders (Germans and Indians due to their geographical locations).

The Iroquois' attitude and reluctance to trade sparked the flames for the English' second miltary campaign, this time a full scale invasion of the Iroquois' main island. Progress was slow to begin with due to the lack of mobile offensive units but with the arrival of tanks and railroads, Iroquois cities fell by the dozens.

The UN project back home in England was originally only intended as protection against diplomatic loss. But later as the time and effort of running the entire English nation pressured its ruler, the English settled for calling the vote for diplomatic victory.

Note: The time traveling technology (save/load) was used to eliminate civil unrest as the English' leader simply did not have the time or patience to tour every city each year.
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Old December 13, 2001, 18:55   #72
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Conquest Victory, 1896 AD, 2230 points
Now I remember why i hate archipelago maps. I don't like to win any way other than conquest, and sailing my ships to each of their islands was a pain in my ass.

No saving/loading, I got burned a few times by cities switching sides on me, but in general, once I got tanks the game was a breeze. The first battle with the Iriqouis determined whether I was going to be a factor in the game or not.

If I could do it over, I'd expand quicker to the other islands and scoop up those luxury resources. I seemed to have a slow beginning but then picked up steam.

I WILL NEVER PLAY THE ENGLISH AGAIN, I need my Religious Civ's to cut the cost of temples/cathedrals and reduce anarchy to 1 turn (I had 8 turns of anarchy following the fall of my democracy due to prolonged war)
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Old December 13, 2001, 18:58   #73
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diplomatic victory 1756 score = 2482
My first game on Monarch difficulty, so not bad considering the lousy starting location.

My early research was BW then writing,literature, mapmaking. Hapfway through writing I started building the Colossus which set off my golden age (way too early - I didn't realize it would be set off) and then built the Great Library immediately after. After researching mapmaking I found the other civs and raked in the early techs with the GL. My settler focus was to fill up my island first and then settle the southern part of East island. Never settled the west Island. Never fought a war.

I was using SnOOpy's graphics, so the coal on the mountain north of london was lost in the shadow . I waited an eternity to buy coal from Russia (who sold their excess away before I could buy it), and paid for 40 turns until I realized that I had local coal (an automated worker built a road on the mountain).

I managed to build up a small tech lead over India by selling my old tech for gold per turn to the other civs and running my science at max (with 10-20% for entertainment). I researched Fission ASAP and built UN ASAP, one turn before finishing I gave everyone computers, rocketry, and excess uranium to make them love me. I beat Ghandi 5-2 in the vote. Overall, Im satisfied despite missing Copernicus and Adam Smith by 1 turn each.

In hindsight, I would have skipped the Colossus, and went straight for mapmaking then lit, and settled the nearby islands ASAP.

P.S. I accidently attached the wrong save game, which I have now fixed. This doesn't count as a second submission does it?
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Old December 13, 2001, 18:59   #74
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File too Big
It said the file was too big to upload to the forum that it had to be 500k or less. my saved game is like 1.4 MB. how do i upload it here?
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Old December 13, 2001, 19:58   #75
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Re: File too Big
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Originally posted by Nimbus
It said the file was too big to upload to the forum that it had to be 500k or less. my saved game is like 1.4 MB. how do i upload it here?
Zip the file. It will compress very nicely.
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Old December 13, 2001, 19:59   #76
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FILE FOR Conquest Victory, 1896 AD 2230 points
ok, zipped it and its small enough to upload
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Old December 13, 2001, 19:59   #77
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Re: File too Big
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Originally posted by Nimbus
It said the file was too big to upload to the forum that it had to be 500k or less. my saved game is like 1.4 MB. how do i upload it here?
Use WinZip (or a similar utility) to compress the file. It should become 10 times smaller (mine was 2 MB and became 200K).
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Old December 13, 2001, 21:56   #78
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The Diplomatic Victories
Wouldn't it be better to disallow diplomatic victories from future tournaments? Its kind of lame...you could be the least powerful civ (example OCC) and still win. Getting rid of the diplomatic victory would also limit the number of submissions from mediocre players like me who win "cheaply" like this. Just my opinion, though.
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Old December 14, 2001, 04:43   #79
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Regarding diplomatic wins: you still have to build the United Nations yourself. If the AI builds it, they are quite intelligent about not allowing a vote if it's not in their interest. I don't see anything wrong with the diplomatic win. In fact, I quite like the option, as it allows you to do something beside expand like wild. The Spaceship win is a similar event. Both are peaceful wins. Some tourneys may be appropriate to disable the option, but certainly not across the board.

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Old December 14, 2001, 12:34   #80
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OCC and diplomatic wins
For those of us who like the occ, banning diplomatic wins would be a nightmare - it is hard enough to get into space or a culture win in occ (harder than it was to get space in Civ II, now there is no wonder rushing) so give us a break here!
No entry this time - the Germans took my OCC London in 1790 last night...

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Old December 14, 2001, 12:42   #81
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Nah, keep the diplomatic victory. Just dump the spaceship. It's the spaceship victory that seems wrong to me. Seems like you've failed in your attempt to gain a position of power by force of arms or diplomatic means, so you pack your bags and run off to another planet, and that's somehow considered a victory? Bah, humbug

Okay, so I know Civilization has always had a spaceship victory condition, and the diplomatic alternative is something new, but still....

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Old December 14, 2001, 18:40   #82
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Diplomatic Victories
Hmm, yea maybe you guys are right - you still have to build the United Nations, which is still kind of hard sometimes. (at least for me) Still, it seems kind of weird that a super weak civ can "win" by getting the vote..hehe imagine Singapore (OCC) achieving dominance over the United States in real life. hehe

Just wondering, is there any good way to ensure that YOU build the United Nations and not the comp?
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Old December 14, 2001, 19:35   #83
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Ensure the UN? The only possibilities are to have a leader sitting around, waiting to rush it, or to have another larger project timed to provide you a head start on shields, as you switch it to UN. The new deal with the Palace ensures that any city besides your capital can "store shields" virtually indefinitely, if you have a lot of cities. That won't help you if you are playing the OCC, though. (OCC isn't likely to yield you any leaders, either. Heh.) On the up side, by that time, there should be no more Wonder Cascade, as runners up on some other wonder all cycle over to the next wonder in the AI priority queue, and jump the gun on the UN. If you are starting from equal or near equal footing, you stand a decent chance.

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Old December 14, 2001, 23:07   #84
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1804 AD Space 3088 pts
As seen by these dates it was an awesome game.

These conditions were almost perfect for my style of play, which is the Trader/Broker. Could and did trade everything and anything as fast as I could. Because of the islands, trade among the civs was minimal. I believe the AI doesn’t seek out trades independently but relies on a percentage chance (somewhat low) every time a unit sees a unit from another civ. With some minor conflicts in the ancient area most of the islands were monolithic but trading blocks occurred where multiple civs existed on one island.

I had played on this type of mapboard before and knew that a beeline to mapmaking/tireme and settle on other islands fast was mandatory. Watching the replay my first off island city was 1150BC which was 300 years before the AI (Germans who were my next closest rival.)

Wanted and could have built the Lighthouse but wanted a late Golden Age so built the Great Library.

For me it was mostly a peaceful game. (Small short altercation in the medieval period started by the Russians!) Until the modern area 1695AD when I believe the AI noticed I could have diplomatic victory in 2 turns and decided to have the Russians attack me. (Totally dumb by the way) Since I had Agreements with everyone it was time for the world to crush the Russians. It was then that I found out I suck at modern warfare. I seem to forget all about strategy and want to see my tanks roll over them and make my first leader. It didn’t happen and I got my ass handed to me. I shook my head and went back to the trading game. Russians got wiped but did lose half their land to the Germans (Their tanks don’t suck as bad) Now I had a serious competition.

Other Notes:
Gave the Americans a City on the north of the east island. Wanted to turn them into a vassal. Didn’t work. They never did much. Corruption I guess due to the distance to a non-existing Palace.

My Culture wasn’t great, as London produced nothing but settlers for quite awhile. Didn’t lose or gain any cities of any size or location.

Used Lumberjacking and Pop rushing very sparingly and messing with temporal timeline (saved games) was kept to a minimum.
One interesting restore occurred when my son wanted to see me kill one of those big elephants. The fictitious war with India went really badly and fast. Three turns later, “What happened to the cities Daddy? Gee... That’s a lot of elephants maybe we should make friends?” “No Son, I will make them disappear”…Restore.

Used the privateer glitch in a unique way. I put my one and only MAN OF WAR on the privateer to kick off a late Golden Age without war and when I wanted it. This is only use for it!

Courtney was my manufacturing Hub after a painful slow FP build (No war =No leader) had Factory/Coal Plant/Ironworks/Golden Age/We love the Queen Day to an all time high of 168 shields per turn Wow!

If I did it again I could probably shave 30 years off of this, but I want the patch and I need to start thinking early war = Leaders = FP. More practice at modern war would be useful too. This style of play would be very boring in MP.
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Old December 14, 2001, 23:09   #85
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Re: 1804 AD Space 3088 pts
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Old December 15, 2001, 07:44   #86
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submissions until tomorrow!

new game perhaps even today
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Old December 15, 2001, 09:55   #87
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Bah. I didn't enjoy this one bit. Please skip the archiphelago next time. I know we had a big discussion about it but I've decided it's not funny.

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Old December 15, 2001, 12:42   #88
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hey, you asked for it!
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Old December 15, 2001, 23:30   #89
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Quote:
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hey, you asked for it!
But who thought of having an Expansionistic civ on an archiphelago map??
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I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).
Skanky Burns is offline  
Old December 16, 2001, 05:54   #90
Trash
Settler
 
Local Time: 17:49
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NZ
Posts: 11
Space Victory 2759 points
Space victory with 2759 points. Lost a city to culture on last turn grrr

Was a mission to finish in time, sorry i'm late
Attached Files:
File Type: zip trash - tournament 2.zip (184.6 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Trash; December 17, 2001 at 18:23.
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