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Old February 1, 2002, 13:26   #271
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Most Dutch people despise Germans. They want to be distinguished from them as much as possible.

I think the Dutch are more related to Scandinavians. They are very tall and blond and favor social welfare programs like them. The Germans are more central European in nature.

Anyhow, the Dutch hated German occupation more than anyone in Europe.
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Old February 1, 2002, 13:51   #272
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Siredgar, you *think* wrong. The Dutch are the closest relatives of the Germans in Europe. Actually, the second closest, if you count Austrians as non-Germans. The *family* goes like this: Germans are actually bros with Austrian. First cousin with Dutch and Belgian (not the French part). Second grade cousins with the skandinavian people (especially Danes and Norwegians - also the Swedes are not far from there). If we go to the third grade... hhmm... ok, let's not

And... sorry, but the Dutch resistance (what resistance???) was the most pathetic in the whole occupied Europe. Even in Lithuania and Letonia was more resistance - not to mention Yugoslavia (Serbia, mostly) or Greece, where the local population had to pay a huge death toll due to the Nazi occupation. Whole villages burned to the ground and ALL the inhabitants shot at spot.

So, no, the Dutch actually had a very active NAZI party and they manned two (or three, I am not sure) Waffen SS divisions. And 100.000 more of them joined the German army.

As far as I know, no French men joined the German army... or Greeks... or Serbs...
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Old February 1, 2002, 14:17   #273
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rosacrux
And... sorry, but the Dutch resistance (what resistance???) was the most pathetic in the whole occupied Europe.
Well, it's not easy to create a resistance movement in a country like the Netherlands; the terrain is not the most appropiate. But the allies had a full spy net in the Netherlands, and many dutch were executed for espionage.

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As far as I know, no French men joined the German army... or Greeks... or Serbs...
I'll surprise you. The last 30 waffen-SS men who defended Hitler's bunker in Berlin (hitler was already dead) had joined Legion Charlemagne: they were french SS volunteers.
After the war, the french government of De Gaulle considered a traitor every french citizen who had joined the german army, and many were executed.
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Old February 1, 2002, 18:34   #274
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Originally posted by Rosacrux


And... sorry, but the Dutch resistance (what resistance???) was the most pathetic in the whole occupied Europe. Even in Lithuania and Letonia was more resistance - not to mention Yugoslavia (Serbia, mostly) or Greece, where the local population had to pay a huge death toll due to the Nazi occupation. Whole villages burned to the ground and ALL the inhabitants shot at spot.
I think you need to pay a visit to the Museum of the Dutch Resistance in Amsterdam. It's housed in a deconsecrated synagogue, although it does have a poignant monument to the murdered Jewish communities of Amsterdam. The reason many people don't know so much about the Dutch Resistance, is because unlike some French collaborators, for instance, they weren't all keen to show themselves to have been fighting the Nazis after the war. How did Maurice Chevalier end up being such a patriot you might ask, after having entertained Wehrmacht troops on German soil? Or Francois Mitterand after having been a Vichy official?
So there was the Oest Compagnie in the Netherlands, and they had S.S. volunteers. So did Norway, who had Vidkun Quisling, so did the Flemish in Belgium, the French, the Croatian Ustasha, Muslim Legion volunteers, and as for the Lithuanian resistance- well the footage I watched last week of Lithuanian civilians, beating to death their Jewish neighbours, as they sang the Lithuanian national anthem, didn't show much resistance to me.
Rotterdam was made an example of by the Germans; Dutch workers went on strike in protest at anti-Jewish laws; the only such anti-pogrom strike - you can see the commemorative statue in Amsterdam near the Jewish Museum. I consider myself honoured to have spoken with a Dutch Resistance member who talked of walking around occupied Amsterdam with a loaded pistol and one extra bullet in his shirt pocket, which was to be reserved for killing himself, in case of capture. After the war, he wanted to put his experiences behind him. A colleague recognised his photograph in a Time-Life book on WWII, and convinced him to volunteer at the Museum of Dutch Resistance, and tell of his part in the anti-fascist struggle. You do a grave disservice to people such as him.

http://verzetsmuseum.org/english/indexE.html

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/netherlands.html

http://www.riod.nl/bibliograpeng_3.html

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/Holocaust/GALL31R/81875.htm
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Old February 2, 2002, 15:29   #275
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Just because the Dutch were not actively fighting in the hills does not mean they weren't resisting German occupation and especially the annihilation of the Jews.

Anyhow, I don't agree with you on Dutch-German relations. Most of today's Germany is quite heterogenous in nature. While Germans in the northwest part of the country may indeed be close relatives to the Dutch and possibly Scandinavians, the rest are most likely not. Just travel through Germany and compare to the Netherlands and Scandinavia and you will see this. You're saying this is not so, but I hope you say this by at least having been to that part of the world rather than just reading it from a book.
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Old February 2, 2002, 18:34   #276
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Originally posted by Arrian
Serb - Sorry, but I think your claim that the Red Army played a "major" role in Japan's defeat in WWII is an exaggeration. There were really two countries who played major roles: the U.S. and China. Honorary mention to the Brits, for the battles in Burma.
I’ve never said that. All I said is the Red Army took big part in defeat of Japan. Red Army hit Japanese a couple of times in 1939 so hard that Japan don’t dare to attack SU latter, even when our major forces fought against Germany. And an August of 1945 was not an easy walk for Red Army. I don’t care was it big role in defeat of Japan or not. I don’t care how you call it. The most important thing is that we took (jasev Thank you very much )back territories we’ve lost to Japan in times of Russian civil war; this is the most important thing for me.
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Further, why is it hard to believe that Stalin attacked Finland to create a buffer zone?
Then why it was not occupied? After the penetration of Mannergeim’s Line it was a really easy task to occupy Finland.
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The alliance between Stalin and Hitler, which resulted in the conquest and division of Poland, had its roots in Stalin's desire to acquire land to his west as a buffer.
There was no buffer between Germany and USSR after division of Poland, and the roots were slightly different.
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After WWII, Eastern Europe (those countries behind the "iron curtain" as Churchill put it) were buffer states vs. Nato. The one country that attempted to remove itself from that role (Hungary) found out what Red Army Tanks look like up close. I'd say Stalin had a thing for buffer zones.
May be he was right? After collapse of Warsaw pact world become more dangerous place for living.
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Old February 4, 2002, 18:32   #277
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Serb,

Regarding the destruction and division of Poland by Germany and the USSR in 1939 - yes, I know it resulted in a common border between the USSR and Germany. However, that border was actually in what was formerly Poland. Poland was the buffer (or rather the eastern part of Poland). I didn't say it worked... just that was the idea.

Stalin right about needing Eastern Europe as a buffer zone? Clearly you can believe what you want, but I happen to disagree heartily. Just like I think the people in the USA who came up with the "domino theory" were paranoid fools.

You say that the world became more dangerous after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. Perhaps that's true. But I don't think that "stability" justifies oppression (hence, I have major issues with some of the things my government is doing right now). Following WWII, Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR, and contolled indirectly from Moscow.

I believe strongly in individual freedom. Therefore, though I acknowledge that the end of the Cold War and the subsequent breakup of the Soviet Union and its satellite states resulted in a less stable, more dangerous world, I still think it was a good thing.

Throughout history, governments have used safety and stability as reasons to do some pretty awful things.

-Arrian

p.s. Was the world really all that stable before the collapse of the Warsaw Pact? I mean, how about all those nuclear weapons pointed at each other (which, unfortunately, are still pointed at each other, for the most part).
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Old February 5, 2002, 19:10   #278
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Re: Stop the America-bashing!
America is a powerful national grouping with its own distinct brand of culture and identity. Yes, it is a relatively new "civilization", but so is France or England to the people of Egypt or China:

America-- 300 years
England-- 1,500 years
France-- 2,000 years
China-- 5,000 years
Egypt-- 6,000 years

[/QUOTE]

Costa Rica-- 200 years

Justice is justice...
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Old February 5, 2002, 23:21   #279
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Yes and the populations of the U.S. and Costa Rica are comparable, too:

U.S.: 300 million

Costa Rica: 3 million
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Old February 6, 2002, 01:47   #280
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Well, I don't know why should I be grateful, my country was not at war. The war in Spain stopped on 1939.
I've always been curious. Why and how did Franco manage to avoid getting embroiled in WWII? Was he completely neutral, or did he quietly support the Axis powers? I've read so very little about Spain's involvement during that time, but surely they must have been affected in some way.
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Old February 6, 2002, 03:12   #281
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To the best of my knowledge, Franco tried his hardest to remain completely neutral during the war. Why he did this, I don't know, although some have said that Franco believed that the British (later the Allies) would win the war. Franco's neutrality actually hurt Germany, as Hitler wanted permission to send German troops through Spain to attack the British at Gibraltar. Franco refused. This made Hitler understandably upset, as he had helped put Franco in power. I think Hitler and Co. tossed around the idea of invading Spain in response, but decided there were more important things to do with Barbarossa fast approaching. It's a good thing they didn't attack; capturing Gibraltar most likely would have made the British position in North Africa untenable and Rommel probably would have taken Egypt. That would've made Britain's continuation of the war unlikely. Luckily Hitler was a much better orator than a military strategist.

edit: Change "the Britain" to "the British". Damn late nights...
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Old February 6, 2002, 04:03   #282
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Well, it's not so simple as Drake tells. Franco didn't want to stay neutral; when France was defeated by germans, everybody in Europe thought that Germany was going to win the war, including Franco. But spain wasn't prepared for a war, the spanish industries had been destroyed by a 3-years civil war and the people was tired and hungy as a result of the war.

Franco decided that the reward for helping the germans should have been higher: he demanded to hitler great extensions of north Africa, including Vichy France parts, in exchange for joining the war. But hitler couldn't accept it because he wished to consolidate the Vichy government, and giving the french colonies to spain wouldn't have been the best policy.

But Franco helped Germany all he could without joining the war. Germany used spain as a base for espionage operations. Spain and Portugal sended cheap bauxite and other raw materials neccessary to bouild tanks to Germany. And finally, he recruited volunteers to fight against russia (they were on Leningrad front).
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Old February 6, 2002, 04:09   #283
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Re: Re: Stop the America-bashing!
Quote:
Originally posted by godinex
Costa Rica-- 200 years
Justice is justice...
Completely agreed, Godinex.
Why don't you take a look at Spanish Civilization II forum? We talk in english and spanish.
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisp...s=&forumid=123
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Old February 6, 2002, 15:51   #284
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I think Hitler and Co. tossed around the idea of invading Spain in response, but decided there were more important things to do with Barbarossa fast approaching

Luckily Hitler was a much better orator than a military strategist
Invading Spain would have been a big mistake. German troops were thinly spread as it was. Besides, making yet another enemy was not what the doctor (or strategist) ordered.
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Old February 6, 2002, 16:36   #285
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Invading Spain would have been a big mistake. German troops were thinly spread as it was. Besides, making yet another enemy was not what the doctor (or strategist) ordered.
Not to mention the troubles that the germans would have had controlling a country with such mountains and about 300,000 war veterans. Napoleon discovered it for himself 150 years before
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Old February 6, 2002, 17:19   #286
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Not to mention the troubles that the germans would have had controlling a country with such mountains and about 300,000 war veterans. Napoleon discovered it for himself 150 years before
I thought that at first, but then thought its a double edged sword. Italy is very mountainous too, but the Germans seemed to maintain control fairly easily even after the switch over of allegiances. The defensive bonuses, once the Germans were in place, were amazing - look at the battle of Monte Casino for starters.

I imagine a similar situation may have occured in Spain if Hitler was originally "invited" by Franco, much like Mussolini invited Hitler to Italy.
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Old February 6, 2002, 17:19   #287
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Hitler considered invading Spain simply as a means to take Gibraltar. He was talked out of it by his own intelligence chief, who was not acting in Germany's best interests.

By taking Gibraltar, Germany would have had a big advantage in the Mediterranean, and could likely have secured the middle eastern oil deposits and attacked the Caucasus from the south, giving Russia additional troubles.

But it didn't happen that way.

But back on topic, I'm a bit disappointed that all anyone can come up with for American culture is Big Macs and coke. Culture is really a function of leisure time more than anything else, and Americans certainly have a lot of leisure time. Things like McDonald's are the exact opposite of culture.

Even sticking to cuisine, there is a lot of wonderful culinary art in America. Most of it varies by region, since the country is such a large place. I, for one, marvel at the variety of local flavors available when I travel. The world would be a lesser place if I couldn't enjoy a Texas barbequeue, some Cincinnati chili mac, New England clam chowder (or lobster), Chesapeake blue crab, cajun crawfish, jumbalaya, blackened anything. The list goes on and on. Here in Chicago we've taken mundane items such as pizza and hot dogs and raised them to true art forms. Everywhere you go in this country, there's a local dish that will knock your socks off. And it doesn't come from McDonalds.

But culture is more than food (even yogurt). I'm not claiming we're better than anyone else, but we do exist, and we do have a culture of our own. We've had literary greats like Hawthorne, Whitman, Twain, Bellow; artists including Wood, Moses, even Warhol (like him or not, he's culture). Music from the roots of jazz and blues through big band and into rock & roll, with names like Billie Holiday, Louie Armstrong, Miles Davis, just to name a few.

Theater, well there is a street in New York called Broadway. And Hollywood, whether you like it or not, is culture. Some (okay, much) of it is mass-produced, shallow, and lacks meaning, but nobody can deny that there have been some truly meaningful films created there over the years. Whether it's Casablanca, Gone With the Wind, or any of a number of other favorites, there's definitely culture to be found there.

Sports, a leisure activity, is also a facet of culture. Now if you wanted to say that the US doesn't belong in the game because we suck at soccer, the world's #1 sport, then I'd have to give in. But there's more to sports than just soccer. We have a few home-grown sports here that are being successfully exported to other countries, including baseball, basketball, and to a lesser extent our own version of football. On the international scene, we've got a few up and coming F1 drivers (but NASCAR is true American culture). We always have a few contenders on the international scene in golf, tennis, gymnastics, and other sports, and we tend to do not-so-badly when the Olympic Games come around.

Beyond culture we have had some significant contributions to science as well. And it's more than just the bomb and the moon shot. We've got more than our fair share of citizens with medallions sporting the bust of Alfred Nobel. In medicine, we've got many top universities and medical centers, in addition to the CDC, Mayo clinic, etc. Our centers for higher learning draw students from around the globe, and we've also got places like Bell Labs, JPL, Los Alamos, and many others where our research is constantly and continuously pushing the envelope.

None of this is intended to portray arrogance or any feeling of being better than any other culture. I just wanted to raise awareness that our culture does not come with the tag line "would you like fries with that?"

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Old February 6, 2002, 17:29   #288
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Krusty Burger fiction, or McD's fact?
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we tend to do not-so-badly when the Olympic Games come around
...
I just wanted to raise awareness that our culture does come with the tag line "would you like fries with that
Did McD's offer free fries/cokes/burgers to people with "scratchcards" stating any event for which an American won a Gold medal in the 1984 LA Olympics?
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Old February 6, 2002, 18:36   #289
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But there's more to sports than just soccer. We have a few home-grown sports here that are being successfully exported to other countries, including baseball, basketball, and to a lesser extent our own version of football.
Hey don't you be taking credit for other people's endeavours. Basketball was invented by a Canadian who happened to be working in the US at the time.
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Old February 6, 2002, 18:43   #290
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Originally posted by Rosacrux


As far as I know, no French men joined the German army... or Greeks... or Serbs...
No, the French just formed a government that did everything the Germans told them to do. At least the Dutch tried to hide the Jews and help them. The French just handed them over to be slaughtered.
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Old February 6, 2002, 19:54   #291
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Rock and roll, jazz, and rap are all "American" inventions.

Hollywood movies are at once a reflection of and influence upon "American" culture.

I don't like putting American in quotes but it's a poor term. America is at once a people, a nation, and a continent.

There really isn't a good substitute for American. United States citizen is over formal, and Yank offends some Americans.
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Old February 6, 2002, 20:05   #292
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.... , and rap are all "American" inventions.
Well this example certainly doesn't support the idea that America has culture.
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Old February 6, 2002, 20:21   #293
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Well this example certainly doesn't support the idea that America has culture.

I disagree- 'high' and 'low' culture are both still culture after all. Shakespeare is now a world famous playwright and poet- yet used to be a jobbing 'entertainer' writing gaudy spectacles for the masses- 'Titus Andronicus', the early histories, for example.

Dickens was looked down upon by some ivory tower academicians for writing entertainments, in serial form, rather than worthy serious novels, like George Eliot and Henry James.

I don't like much of the rap music to which I have been exposed- but then not everyone likes Philip Glass or John Cage or The Velvet Underground. Jazz, the muscial genre that gave us Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday and John Coltrane was despised as 'jungle music' and decadent and primitive- and now is American heritage.
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Old February 6, 2002, 21:55   #294
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I disagree- 'high' and 'low' culture are both still culture after all. Shakespeare is now a world famous playwright and poet- yet used to be a jobbing 'entertainer' writing gaudy spectacles for the masses- 'Titus Andronicus', the early histories, for example.

Dickens was looked down upon by some ivory tower academicians for writing entertainments, in serial form, rather than worthy serious novels, like George Eliot and Henry James.

I don't like much of the rap music to which I have been exposed- but then not everyone likes Philip Glass or John Cage or The Velvet Underground. Jazz, the muscial genre that gave us Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday and John Coltrane was despised as 'jungle music' and decadent and primitive- and now is American heritage.
Hey, relax. I was just being sacrcastic.
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Old February 7, 2002, 08:10   #295
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Serb,
Regarding the destruction and division of Poland by Germany and the USSR in 1939 - yes, I know it resulted in a common border between the USSR and Germany. However, that border was actually in what was formerly Poland. Poland was the buffer (or rather the eastern part of Poland). I didn't say it worked... just that was the idea.
I've just said that the reasons of his decision was slightly different. Poland was part of Russian Empire until 1918 like Finland and Baltic states, but territories which SU took after division of Poland (Western Ukraine, Western Byelorussia and Besorabia) don't even belong to province of Russian Empire- Poland, it belongs to SU until 1921. Was it unfair to return own lands?
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Stalin right about needing Eastern Europe as a buffer zone? Clearly you can believe what you want, but I happen to disagree heartily. Just like I think the people in the USA who came up with the "domino theory" were paranoid fools.
I've mean a military aspect. USA spread its military bases all around the world. Was it unfair that Stalin establish soviet military installations in Eastern Europe? USA did the same in Western Europe.
Quote:
You say that the world became more dangerous after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. Perhaps that's true.
Yeah, that’s true. I mean, how many serious conflicts happens for the period of time since end of WW2 (1945) and before collapse of Warsaw Pact (1991)? Within 46 years it was: war in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan. After collapse of SU and WP it was: Iraq, Bosnia, aggression against Yugoslavia (1999), NY September 11 (I think that collapse of SU one of the reasons why terrorism spread all around the world), war in Afghanistan, at the present time we can see events in Israel or events on Indian-Pakistan border. Isn’t it too much for ten years? NATO and WP neutralized each other, now WP is gone and world become unbalanced. It is very sad. Unbalanced, unstable mechanism blows up frequently.
[/QUOTE] But I don't think that "stability" justifies oppression (hence, I have major issues with some of the things my government is doing right now). Following WWII, Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR, and controlled indirectly from Moscow. [/QUOTE]
Of course "stability" do not justifies oppression and I believe strongly in individual freedom too, but Stalin has different point of view. Yes, Eastern Europe was controlled indirectly from Moscow, but I prefer use word "liberated from fascism" not "occupied". So what? Was it unfair? What you suggest Stalin must done? SU paid a highest price for victory in WW2, about 30 millions of people was slain, country was laid in ruins, and you suggest that after liberation of Eastern Europe (btw, Hitler used those countries industry, manpower and territory in war against SU) Red Army has to simply leave and take nothing in exchange? Everything has its price. Price for liberation from horrors of fascism was spread of soviet ideology and soviet military bases (btw it wasn't so hard to establish friendly governments in those countries, communists ideas was popular, because during fascists occupation most of resistance fighters were communists.). Btw did USA never has, and do not have now its own pocket governments? Its policy and policy is very dirty game, USA government and SU government did the same things (established military bases, place puppet governments), but in your case its count as normal and if SU government did the same it calls occupation, oppression, and something like this, only because SU has different ideology. It seems unfair for me.

Quote:
I believe strongly in individual freedom. Therefore, though I acknowledge that the end of the Cold War and the subsequent breakup of the Soviet Union and its satellite states resulted in a less stable, more dangerous world, I still think it was a good thing.
Sorry, I can not agree with that. I was born in that country, it is my motherland. How would you feel if say 15-20 states of USA one day declare independence and become a foreign countries? Or another example- what would you say if Alaska decide to return to Russia? Btw rent time is expired, its time to return this land to its owner! Return Alaska to Russia at once!!! Just kidding. So, I cant agree that collapse of SU “was good thing”, it was much better if we were capable to switch our ideology without collapse of the country.
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Throughout history, governments have used safety and stability as reasons to do some pretty awful things.
Agreed, but it is much worse when governments use some pretty awful things to gain safety and stability.
Quote:
p.s. Was the world really all that stable before the collapse of the Warsaw Pact? I mean, how about all those nuclear weapons pointed at each other (which, unfortunately, are still pointed at each other, for the most part).
Of course it was not. We were lived, and living now in very dangerous world. But, (I think its time to return to the topic of this post, and try to star.. I mean to stop bashing an Americans) tell me please if we (soviets) were so evil, aggressive, militaristic and you(USA) were so good and peaceful, then WHY ARE YOU REJECTING OUR OFFERS OF NUKES REDUCTION TODAY? Why not to make this world a little safe and reduce a number nukes as our president offer? Why are you rejecting it, is it the actions of good and peaceful, non militaristic country? And the most important question- what for you need those nukes? Or for whom?

P.S. Arrian,
I think last question must be addressed to your government, not you personally. I am sorry if you find something offending in my words.

Last edited by Serb; February 7, 2002 at 08:34.
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Old February 7, 2002, 08:34   #296
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serb

I've just said that the reasons of his decision was slightly different. Poland was part of Russian Empire until 1918 like Finland and Baltic states, but territories which SU took after division of Poland (Western Ukraine, Western Byelorussia and Besorabia) don't even belong to province of Russian Empire- Poland, it belongs to SU until 1921. Was it unfair to return own lands?
Maybe the polish would say nice words to you for that, Serb. When (and, more important, how) did poland become part of the Russian Empire?

Quote:
I've mean a military aspect. USA spread its military bases all around the world. Was it unfair that Stalin establish soviet military installations in Eastern Europe? USA did the same in Western Europe.
Well, the US did'nt invade a western european country like the SU did with Ceskoslovensko (I hope it's the correct name). Of course, if we were talking about Central and South America, the arguments would be different...

Quote:
at the present time we can see events in Israel or events on Indian-Pakistan border.
Oh please, don't laugh at us. India and Pakistan fought during the cold war in, at least, two wars. The trouble between them is not a new conflict but an extension of an existing one.
The same with Israel and Palestina. Ever heard about the Six Days or Yom-Kippur? BTW, in these wars, the arab countries were armed with Soviet Weapons, including tanks and fighters.

Quote:
So what? Was it unfair? What you suggest Stalin must done? SU paid a highest price for victory in WW2, about 30 millions of people was slain, country was laid in ruins, and you suggest that after liberation of Eastern Europe (btw, Hitler used those countries industry, manpower and territory in war against SU) Red Army has to simply leave and take nothing in exchange?
Just a thing: any of those countries had exiled governments, like Yugoslavia and Poland. What about re-stablishing them?

Quote:
Btw did USA never has, and do not have now its own pocket governments? Its policy and policy is very dirty game, USA government and SU government did the same things (established military bases, place puppet governments), but in your case its count as normal and if SU government did the same it calls occupation, oppression, and something like this, only because SU has different ideology. It seems unfair for me.
It IS unfair. But there is a trouble: you lost, and the history is written by the winners. So get used to it.

Quote:
tell me please if we (soviets) were so evil, aggressive, militaristic and you are (USA) were so good and peaceful, then WHY ARE YOU REJECTING OUR OFFERS OF NUKES REDUCTION TODAY? Why not to make this world a little safe and reduce a number nukes as our president offer? Why are you rejecting it, is it the actions of good and peaceful, non militaristic country? And the most important question what for you need those nukes? Or for whom?
Ejem... as I said before, they won the war, so they don't have to negotiate. They can impose their terms, because now Russia depends on foreign investments and credits just like almost every country in the world.

And they are so good and peaceful that we don't have to be worried about their nukes, because we can be sure they will use it only for good and peaceful causes.
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Old February 7, 2002, 09:32   #297
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasev
Maybe the polish would say nice words to you for that, Serb. When (and, more important, how) did poland become part of the Russian Empire?
I would be glad to hear those words.
Poland become part of Russian Empire in 18 century, if I remember correctly in 1791 because of division of … damn I don’t know how this empire called on English so I type it on Russian ok? Rech Pospolitaya.
Quote:
Well, the US did'nt invade a western european country like the SU did with Ceskoslovensko (I hope it's the correct name). Of course, if we were talking about Central and South America, the arguments would be different...
You forget about invasion in Vietnam and bombardments of Yugoslavia. Oops I suppose its different case, my mistake. I’ve forget that this was done by Americans and it can be wrong or bad, of course their have honorable and righteous reasons for those actions, not to install puppet governments.
Quote:
Oh please, don't laugh at us. India and Pakistan fought during the cold war in, at least, two wars. The trouble between them is not a new conflict but an extension of an existing one.
The same with Israel and Palestina. Ever heard about the Six Days or Yom-Kippur? BTW, in these wars, the arab countries were armed with Soviet Weapons, including tanks and fighters.
Of course I’ve heard about it. This is exactly what I’ve mean. One side of conflict was supported by USA another side was supported by SU. Things were balanced. Nowadays USA feel free to do almost anything because of collapse of SU, absolute power is very dangerous thing, it may have very bad consequences.
Quote:
Just a thing: any of those countries had exiled governments, like Yugoslavia and Poland. What about re-stablishing them?
It was the right of winner to decide it. Don’t make me laugh, everyone makes the same.
Quote:
It IS unfair. But there is a trouble: you lost, and the history is written by the winners. So get used to it.
We will never surrender.
Quote:
Ejem... as I said before, they won the war, so they don't have to negotiate. They can impose their terms, because now Russia depends on foreign investments and credits just like almost every country in the world.
Once in our history- 1917 we nationalized everything in our country and refused to pay foreign debts, and was able build very powerful country- Soviet Union, because we are self-sufficient country, we have enough resources for that. If USA do not want such flow of events they should be more fair with us.
Quote:
And they are so good and peaceful that we don't have to be worried about their nukes, because we can be sure they will use it only for good and peaceful causes.
Like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki I suppose?

P.S. I wish to thank you once again about this take-took-taken
stuff . It was very helpful.

Last edited by Serb; February 8, 2002 at 08:01.
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Old February 7, 2002, 09:49   #298
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serb
You forget about invasion in Vietnam and bombardments of Yugoslavia. Oops I suppose its different case, my mistake.
We were talking about Europe, don't change the subject. I said the things were different on Latin America; add southeastern Asia to that argument and the result is the same. And the invasion of Yugoslavia was after the cold war, so it can't be taken in a comparative about the cold war. One of these days, if you want, we can talk about that bombardments or the american activities in Latin America and Asia.

Quote:
It was the right of winner to decide it. Don’t make me laugh, everyone makes the same.
The only western european countries with true exiled governments were Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway (and maybe Luxemburg ), and those governments were re-stablished, so not everyone does the same.

Quote:
We will never surrender.
You already surrendered, man. Yu can cry, you can protest, you can insult, but the SU flag is not at the masts.

Quote:
Like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki I suppose?
Of course, as I said: good and peaceful purposes.

Quote:
P.S. I wish to thank you once again about this take-took-taken
stuff . It was very helpful.
When I said that, I was talking to Sagacious Dolphin, not to you. And if you repeat it again, I'll attack Russia with my mighty spanish army (in civ2, of course )
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Old February 7, 2002, 10:23   #299
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We were talking about Europe, don't change the subject. I said the things were different on Latin America; add southeastern Asia to that argument and the result is the same. And the invasion of Yugoslavia was after the cold war, so it can't be taken in a comparative about the cold war. One of these days, if you want, we can talk about that bombardments or the american activities in Latin America and Asia.
What the difference? I’ve wanted to said that USA makes the same actions, does it matter were or when?

Quote:
The only western european countries with true exiled governments were Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway (and maybe Luxemburg ), and those governments were re-stablished, so not everyone does the same.
Well, I’ve mean something different. I’ve mean that winner have right to take benefits from victory, and to chose form of government he wish to establish.
Quote:
You already surrendered, man. Yu can cry, you can protest, you can insult, but the SU flag is not at the masts.
But we have hymn of SU now. Oh man, I really love that song.
Edit: Almost forget SU union flag is the official flag of our army, the same old red banner.

P.S.Sorry almost forget.
I wish to thank you once again about this take-too…
Hmm…Did I type it earlier? Ooops I think it’s time to move out before I’ve put my country in troubles. See you later.

Last edited by Serb; February 7, 2002 at 10:33.
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Old February 7, 2002, 11:35   #300
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Serb,

I think I've already acknowledged (many posts ago) that the USA did all sorts of ugly things during the cold war as well. I wasn't trying to say that USSR = bad, USA = good, with nothing in between. I'm appalled at some of the machinations of the CIA during the 50's and 60's (often in central/south america or the middle east).

You were born in the former USSR. Do you live in Russia now? I'm just curious, and if you do, I'm curious about one other thing - are you glad you can vote and communicate your thoughts freely to others? Those are things I tend to take for granted, but if I were to ever lose those basic rights, I would be unable to accept that loss. Stalin, as I recall, didn't give a damn about those rights (I imagine he feared them, actually, just like any other despot). One of the things that angers me most about my goverment's policies is that they seem to care about freedom & democracy just about as much as Stalin did when it comes to other countries (e.g. "Sure, go ahead and oppress your people, so long as you sell us oil").

You mentioned that you think I unfairly characterize what the USSR did as bad, "simply because SU has different ideology." Well, ideology is pretty important. And to be completely honest, I don't think much of that Soviet ideology. I was discussing oppression and/or the lack of personal freedom. Soviet ideology was totalitarian communism (and yes, I'm aware that "pure" communism was never meant to be totalitarian, but that's how the USSR/China/N. Korea ended up). The Soviet brand of government and economic policy was the antithesis of personal freedom and democracy, the things I hold dear. Stalin in particular was a brutal tyrant responsible for the deaths of millions of his own people. In my mind, he's one step removed from Hitler.

A quick thought about nukes. There is nothing I hate more than hypocrisy, and the USA is pretty damn hypocritical about "weapons of mass destruction" considering we're the only ones to every actually use nuclear weapons to kill people. I'm not particularly worried about governments having nukes... it's the fanatic with a mini nuke in a backpack that I see as a threat (not that I lose sleep over it... what's the point of that?).

As for the talks with Russia to reduce the number of nukes we've got, I was under the impression that Bush wanted to just unilaterally reduce the USA's nuclear arsenal and hope Russian reciprocated, with no formal treaty. I lost track of that issue after Sept. 11th, I admit, so I could be wrong.

-Arrian
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