Stop the America-bashing!

[ntyatecafe]

Originally posted by siredgar

However, I think before we debate this issue, it's important to determine whether it should be the civilization's "height" or the period they existed. For example, the Americans have existed for about 225 years (that's 225 turns!) However, they have had significant power for only about 100 years, that is 100 turns.

Good point.

Let me add that we should also examine impact/influence. Some civilizations made impacts or influences that still are around today. Should these be taken into account? What are the guidelines going to be? what civilization are we going to look at to gain these guidelines?

As noted before, America cannot compete with Rome or Greece on either Height of Power, or Period of Existence, due to the fact that it is such a relatively new country.

So we'd probably have to consider influence, and impact (i.e., has America in it's 300 years made as much impact as Rome or Greece did?). For that matter, we could use this method to judge all current civilizations in the game to establish whether or not they are worthy. But then again, who do we measure them to? The oldest civilization? The Biggest? The most Powerful? The one that lasted the longest? I'm comfortable comparing against Rome or Greek, but I'm sure others would disagree.

[ntyatecafe]

Okay, I found a chart listing the years per turn for the game!

PERIOD----------------YRS/TRN------TURNS
4000 BC - 2750 BC---------50------------25
2750 BC - 1750 BC---------40------------25
1750 BC - 750 BC-----------25-----------40
750 BC - 250 AD------------20------------50
250 AD - 1250 AD----------10-----------100
1250 AD - 1750 AD---------5------------100
1750 AD - 1950 AD---------2------------100
1950 AD - 2050 AD---------1------------100


540 turns total. YRS/TRNS don't vary with difficulty level.

basically we have a period of 6050 years, and a total of 540 turns with years per turn gradually decreasing from 50 to 1.

[siredgar]

Great job, ntyatecafe!

Now, if we can just determine the most appropriate way to judge a civilization. I'm leaning towards simply counting the number of years in existence as a "civilization".

So, if we re-do the math for America:

174 years during (1751AD-1950AD) divided by 2 = 87 turns

+

50 years during (1951AD-2050AD) = 50 turns

TOTAL: 137 turns

This is faulty, however, because it starts at the date of independence. Instead, it should really start when there is the beginning of an American "civilization" or at least a sense of being "American" with distinct cultural attributes. That's a start, but I'd like to ask the experts on each civilization to help by contributing calculations for their own areas of specialty!

By the way, ntyatecafe, I'm assuming each period starts like 1751AD instead of 1750AD? Thanks for all the great work!

[splangy]

How about doing it on the 20 turns were they would (in general) get there golden age...Just a random idea.

[ntyatecafe]

America--226 years (1776 AD)
England-- 1,500 years
France-- 2,000 years
China-- 5,000 years
Egypt-- 6,000 years (4,000 BC)

Ok, using the above rough list we'll say that America has been around for 138 turns, and let's say Egypt was founded in 4,000 BC, and is still here today, so that is 6000 years, which means that Egypt has been around for 531 turns? let's see:

America--138 turns
England--326 turns
France--364 turns
China--471 turns
Egypt--531 turns

I think that this is correct. Note that this is "Existance only" not height of power or influence.

[ntyatecafe]

Okay, here's a compromise for all those who think that America should not be in the early game, and should instead start in the late game (i.e., 1700's).

Starting a new game, Egypt is the only civilization available to you.
after 68 turns, you now have the option of staying with Egypt, or switching to China (but if you switch, you'd have to start building China with only the 1 settler and warrior). Then, after another 107 turns, you could switch to France (again, you'd have to start from scratch). After another 107 turns, England becomes available (guess what...start from scratch!), then finally, after another 295 turns, you could then choose America and (gasp!) start from scratch again!!!

Doesn't sound like much fun does it? Unless you kept Egypt for the entire game, you'd lose due to not being as advanced! But of course, to make things more realistic, you'd have the declining empire symptoms. After so many turns, Egypt would continuously loose power and ground, China would still keep it's power and ground, but there might be an increase in unrest, England would do okay, but you'd loose almost 1/3 of your population due to the simulated "Black Plage", and then, you'd loose some of your cities and population when America comes into existance...of course, when America comes about, all civs would loose some population to it.
Oh, and don't forget, that if you were playing Japan, around the 1940's you'd loose 2 cities and most of the population of both, and if you're playing Germany during the same time period, you'd loose control of half of your civilization for about 40 years. And remeber that the U.S.S.R fractured into the C.I.S. Russia itself didn't change, but don't forget that Russia was just one part of the USSR. So there would be some limits on it as well. Maybe like loosing all but 1/8 of your civilization (assuming that Russia represents the entire USSR).

Do you really want to play a game like that? If you don't like a Civ, don't use it, or mod it out and replace it whoever you want, but don't critisize a "Rewrite History" game for not being historically acurate.

Siredgar, let me know what you think about the list. If you want to compare height of power, the I suggest to use the following formula: Years of Existance/Years of Height of Power. This will give an equal ratio for which civilization actually did better than any others. America has only been around for 225 years, but it is not declining, it could be around another 100 years, or another 6,000, so comparison based on length of existance is not a true representation of success.

Let me know!

[siredgar]

Hmmm, now I'm thinking that Egypt should not be counted as 6,000 years really since it is ancient Egyptian civilization that qualified it as a Civ in the game. I'm not sure about the Chinese and the Indians, however.

[Beckdawg]

Well this is my assessment as a American on this whole situation. They should be in and there is no way that the will ever not be in. The civ series wouldn't sell in America(one of the largest game markets in the world) very well if they were missing. That is money out of the pockets of the game makers. As for the US culture, I think some of the people who are commenting need to visit America before you complain. Some of you have and you can comment, but if you are seeing stuff on TV you have NO idea what the US is like. TV is VERY bad at showing the truth in America. The thing that makes the US so great is the way it combines so many cultures together. They might not be all ours, but there are not many countries that can say they are as diverse as us, if any. Another thing you guys are leaving out is the fact that the US is where democracy became a popular government. Now we might not have came up with the idea, but would that have mattered if we didn't come along and make it common place? There probably would be a monarchs still if not for us. And I will ask a question to all you nay sayers, If America is such a terrible place then why do so many people want to get here? I mean people in Cuba risk their lives on small rafts to come live in the US. The same is true with Mexicans. Another thing you guys are forgetting are some of the things that came out of America. Lets see..... there was flight(thanks to the wright bros.), there was the good ol' model T thanks to Mr ford(for those of u who don't know that is a car), there was steam power(which now isn't huge but at the time was a big invention), there was electricity, there were computers(kind of ironic in fact cause the country that people are wanting to take out made the computer main stream). Many other things came out of the US too. Honestly, I don't know why anyone makes fun of any country. Hell, I am sure even Luxembourg has some great points. If not no one would live there. Judging bye the amount of immigrant the US gets every year we have to be doing something right. So, the US might not be perfect but at least we are communist lol not to say there is any thing wrong with the commies But, since the US has the 1st amendment right, I can't make you not say bad things because then i would be a hypocrit(ya i know this is a greek/canadian sight) and i wouldn't have it any other way because i like the freedom of being able to say whatever I want without fear of punishment.

[ntyatecafe]

I've started a new thread, since this is kind of getting away from stopping the America bashing. Since this is taking a more mathmatical/scientific look at the ratio's and numbers, I've named the thread "The Science of Civs", and it is in the civilizations forum

I'd add the thread link, but don't know how. I'm hoping we can continue the discussion, and also bring more people into it. The purpose of the discussion being not whether or not America belongs in the game (I believe they do), but rather an information sharing, gathering discussion to accurately give comparisons, timelines, historic graphs and charts.

I hope you check it out.

[siredgar]

Beckdawg brings up a good point: How many civilization advances are American? Some of the most important ones seem to be American indeed.

[MrWhereItsAt]

(sigh) I reckon that America should be in Civ3 'cause of gameplay/familiarity issues. They make a good competitor in the game and have done so since Civ. I personally am well used to their characteristics that have stayed similar throughout all three games. It just wouldn't be the same if I had to deny another culture's access to Democracy!

[d_dudy]

ahh, you had to bring up civ1.....


i remember fondly the cold wars between me and my brother's america (we played as americans often, the real reason their in the game-alot of buyers want to play as them) and the communist aztecs. i guess communism was a good outlet for thier aggression because they sure used it alot.

good stuff, not relevant to the point, but i like to share

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Beckdawg
Another thing you guys are leaving out is the fact that the US is where democracy became a popular government.

The Iroquois helped a little there ... .

Lets see..... there was flight(thanks to the wright bros.)

Balloons and gliders long before them, and many others working independently on the same ideas.

there was the good ol' model T thanks to Mr ford

The French were first (Peugot company, 1889).

there was steam power

English invention (Thomas Newcomen, 1712).

there was electricity

Watson was simultaneous with Franklin. But there were a lot of steps to be taken, making this a global accomplishment imho. Franklin couldn't have done it without knowledge of the Leyden jar, for instance.

there were computers

The French started this (Blaise Pascal, 1642).

My point is, these 'things coming out of America' weren't 'an American gift to the world'. Many nations contributed. I still like having the USA in Civ3 though.

[Beckdawg]

I had a feeling some one would say something about computer and that is why i added the part about bringing them into the main stream. I don't recall any other competitors for Apple and IBM in early days of the computer wars(that weren"t american i think compac was around then), As for flight, I was obviously talking about air planes. Hot air ballons are good but they really can't get you very far very fast like the modern day jets. The model T was the first useage of the assembly line(i think my history is a little fuzzy rightnow) which was something i should have mentioned. As for electricty and other things that were close to america in discover or even before, this is true, but most of the inventions are similiar in time they are developed. The germans might have been able to produce a nuke in WW2 if they would have had a little more time which would have been close to when the US did it. The fact that the US is even in scientific situations like this is even more reasons they should be in. So while somemight bash the US(not implying whoever replyed to my comment) the fact of the matter is we can brag and be arrogant at times because we have earned it. I am not by any means saying most americans are arrogant, but it we were one of the weaker countries in time and were arrogant it would be a joke really. I never really have understood this civ bashing. I mean what makes one civ better than another? Usually it is the one who has the best military. But, in my opinion england and greece and finland and all the other countries out there have some good aspects and some bad aspects. I mean there is not a single person on the earth that is perfect so what sense would it make that there is a so called perfect civ. My motto is take the good with that bad or in a lot of cases take the good ignore the bad. That is the main reason i haven't said, "well what has finland done for the world?" or made fun of the people who posted againts the US. The US has MANY good points that far exceed the bad. So in conclusion, just admire the good qualities of the US.Yes we have bad spots but like i said no one is perfect. Oh, one last comment. I found it some what intriguing that before the first 2 world wars the US was probably a 2nd rate power and that after them we were a huge world power. In that span we also suffered the worst econmic disaster we had ever seen.

[Sencho]

An incomplete list of American contributions to science and industry for the curious:

Air Conditioning
Airplane
Aluminum manufacture
Animation (specifically sound cartoons)
Binary circuits
Car radio (which also launched Motorola)
Cardiac pacemaker
Computer memory device (now called RAM)
Cyclotron
DNA Replication
Elevator
Fiber optics
Gasoline, manufacture
The Internet
Ironclads (The Monitor)
Kevlar
The laser
Linear polymerization
Neoprene
Nylon
Penicillin and its mass production
Petroleum cracking
Plow, steel
The semiconductor
Teflon
The telephone

Taken from here

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Beckdawg
So while somemight bash the US(not implying whoever replyed to my comment) the fact of the matter is we can brag and be arrogant at times because we have earned it.

Ah, but you see, precisely because your country has grown so important in recent times, you should not brag or be arrogant, or if you do you have also earned the right to be bashed.

[Dauphin]

Most countries have a "Not invented here" blinkeredness to invention. Name any major invention and most people will name their own nations "greats in the field".

eg.

Nylon

Given that Nylon was so named because the invention of the material occured in New York and London I would not class it as a purely American invention.

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Ah, but you see, precisely because your country has grown so important in recent times, you should not brag or be arrogant, or if you do you have also earned the right to be bashed.

Bravo, well said! When at the top, be prepared to be criticized.

. . . and I say this as an American . . .

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by yin26
At any rate, American culture can often take 'upgraded' forms in other countries that make Americans (or other Westerners) think: "Why do they think Coco's is such a big deal? Gee, they must be really hard up."

It's nice to see you make a light-hearted comment once in a while, Yin. You should do it more often.

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by ntyatecafe
Okay, here's a compromise for all those who think that America should not be in the early game, and should instead start in the late game (i.e., 1700's).

Starting a new game, Egypt is the only civilization available to you.
after 68 turns, you now have the option of staying with Egypt, or switching to China (but if you switch, you'd have to start building China with only the 1 settler and warrior). Then, after another 107 turns, you could switch to France (again, you'd have to start from scratch). After another 107 turns, England becomes available (guess what...start from scratch!), then finally, after another 295 turns, you could then choose America and (gasp!) start from scratch again!!!

Doesn't sound like much fun does it? Unless you kept Egypt for the entire game, you'd lose due to not being as advanced! But of course, to make things more realistic, you'd have the declining empire symptoms. After so many turns, Egypt would continuously loose power and ground, China would still keep it's power and ground, but there might be an increase in unrest, England would do okay, but you'd loose almost 1/3 of your population due to the simulated "Black Plage", and then, you'd loose some of your cities and population when America comes into existance...of course, when America comes about, all civs would loose some population to it.
Oh, and don't forget, that if you were playing Japan, around the 1940's you'd loose 2 cities and most of the population of both, and if you're playing Germany during the same time period, you'd loose control of half of your civilization for about 40 years. And remeber that the U.S.S.R fractured into the C.I.S. Russia itself didn't change, but don't forget that Russia was just one part of the USSR. So there would be some limits on it as well. Maybe like loosing all but 1/8 of your civilization (assuming that Russia represents the entire USSR).

Do you really want to play a game like that? If you don't like a Civ, don't use it, or mod it out and replace it whoever you want, but don't critisize a "Rewrite History" game for not being historically acurate.

WOW, have you hit the nail on the head! Since the time I began perusing the Civ forums, I have NEVER understood some fans insistence that Civ be so absolutely historically accurate for precisely the point you make above.

Well said. Thank you!

[Sencho]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Given that Nylon was so named because the invention of the material occured in New York and London I would not class it as a purely American invention.

So, you're saying that a material developed in American labs, by American scientists, with an American process for an American company wasn't an American invention? Intriguing.

Unfortunatly Nylon being for New York and London is an urban legend (see here) and it's name was a corporate invention. The only role London played in Nylon's invention was as one of the two launch cities for the product.

[Dauphin]

I give on the name bit. Damned lying Chemistry lecturer.

However, there is more than one type of "Nylon", just like there is more than one type of plastic.

[Sencho]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I give on the name bit. Damned lying Chemistry lecturer.

However, there is more than one type of "Nylon", just like there is more than one type of plastic.

Don't you love it when lecturers are wrong. :-)

You are quite correct in saying there is more than one form of Nylon and plastic, I was just providing some technological innovations that were developed in the US originally. All good inventions are improved on and used outside their origin point. After all, look at gunpowder.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
I was just providing some technological innovations that were developed in the US originally. All good inventions are improved on and used outside their origin point.

Which is why I feel that any country claiming an invention is not really "correct". They were just the first to develop a successful working scenario.

Look at trains, first used in Britain, but I would hesitate to say that "trains were invented in Britain". Similar with flight, the USA had the first successful flight, but I would hesitate to say they "invented flight".

[Sencho]

Interesting. Who then is more important to society, the one who first thinks it up or the one who makes it workable and available to society as a whole?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
Interesting. Who then is more important to society, the one who first thinks it up or the one who makes it workable and available to society as a whole?

That is like asking "What is the more vital organ, the Brain or the Heart".

You can't do without either, and they're each of paramount importance. They are entwined endeavours.

[Sencho]

I disagree, it's nothing like choosing between the brain and the heart. Remove either of those organs and the patient dies.

But someone who comes up with an idea and doesn't act on it is merely pointless. The idea maybe lost, along with its benefit, but society doesn't die. Whereas the person who brings the idea to the world (either independantly, working with the original creator, etc) can lead to revolutions.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
Whereas the person who brings the idea to the world (either independantly, working with the original creator, etc) can lead to revolutions.

How can person B bring the idea to the world if that idea was not thought up by person A in the first place?

How do you sell an idea that does not yet exist?

[Thrawn05]

I find it funny how we continue to turn to the Egyptians when comparing other civs. It should be pointed out that Egypt AS A CULTURE OF ITS OWN ended when the Roman Empire fell, and the Muslim raiders took control of it.

[ntyatecafe]

Which is why I feel that any country claiming an invention is not really "correct". They were just the first to develop a successful working scenario.

"...and we stood on the shoulders of giants to thus achieve..."

Probably not an actual quote, I misremember where I heard it, but your point is well spoken. Many times, we took inventions from other inventors, and built them up from there.
Many well-said points to everyone here. Americans cannot truly claim full credit for a lot of these inventions. The Jet fighter I believe was first developed in Germany (I might be wrong), and the Atomic bomb, was developed by an international team of scientists. But despite this, America has still made a huge impact on the world.

As someone else here stated, America should not be left in because of age, or culture, or influence, but instead it should be left in just because it is so much fun to play as America (But I still wish they had used George Washington for the graphic...or better yet, how about Richard Nixon as the president...when another civilization accuses you of wrongdoing, his picture could pop up and say "I am not a crook!!!")