Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[smellymummy]

Originally posted by yin26
Actually, Yoda misquoted me: We ejected him into deep space for 2 years as punishment.

Yoda is over 800 years old pal, no way he could of misquoted you, since you werent around! Don't spread lies about the small green wise man!!! Okay?

Thank you.

[Venger]

First - are engineers gone from Civ3? I certainly never got to build them, and they helped late game tedium by working twice as fast...

Jerk has some good ideas, basically making the worker hard to get but he works REAL fast, basically as an engineer units it sounds. I like it...

Venger

[yin26]

First, I like the changes you've made to the workers! Great ideas. Good work.

As for negativity, it depends. Do you feel that Firaxis and Infogrames have jerked around the public in any way? If not, then you no doubt find it hard to understand the negativity. I personally feel that they HAVE.

The next questions you asked are good ones: Do I post to punish Firaxis? In a way, yes. When I keep some of the negative points in the spotlight, I am making the decision to make sure that the past is not fogotten. How is this helpful?

History often repeats itself. But when it repeats itself in the face of constant reminders of previous failings, at some point Firaxis has to ask itself as a company: Are we going to do this better next time?

Or they can ignore us completely. Which, in many cases, I think they have done anyway ... which leads once again to the negativity. Will it help the cause?

I can say that at least 'a few' Civ3's were not purchased because of the less than stellar comments from people on this forum. And I can say that some key players at Firaxis -- even if they are trying to avoid certain threads and certain people -- are keenly aware that a good number of people here are not satisfied at all with the game.

If they didn't know that to begin with, would they really push themselves on future patches? Personally, I don't think so. I think they'd look at silence or acceptance from the fans as a sign that all is right in the world of Civ. This is human.

On the other hand, there are constructive ways to be negative and destructive ways. I would argue that if you are a person who feels the game will *never* be worth playing, then you should leave. I am borderline. I am waiting to see what patches 2 and 3 look like, since that will tell me more or less the Firaxis strategy for Civ3.

Until then, this is a forum. I'll post whatever strikes me in the moment ... and always have.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Venger
Why is the solution to poor game design to "go to the editor". Did I buy Civ3 or the Civ Construction Set? Maybe I want my game to work and be fun out of the box?

good god, do you want to play a great civ game or do you a miracle(firaxis releasing a version of civ with exactly the rules and settings that you want) to happen?

if you want to play a great civ game that has the rules that you like(even if turns out to be unbalanced ), use the freaking editor!

[Venger]

Originally posted by volcanohead
Not sure how hard it is to code a worker algorithm which will work as efficiently as a human in all situations. Imagine it's pretty tricky, to say the least...

Indeed. But there is another way...

Lame point following: Has ANY 4E game with a worker type unit ever approached human-like intelligence for tile improvement?

Who knows - though I bet with an open system and good script language the community members here could whip out a decent one...

Are we simply making unrealistic demands? Or are Firaxis just crap?

Neither. There is a gameplay problem with workers on large maps due to both intrinsic AI problems and gameplay concept problems of having to railroad every god damn square on the map. Workers should simply create connections between towns, create colonies, and clear land and pollution (terraform!!). The tile bonuses should come from in city improvements of Highways for the road bonus of trade and Railways for the bonus food/shield. This way, you don't ugly up the damn map and require me to move 200 workers around every turn or two...

Venger
P.S. Nobody asked me how I got 200 workers...only 10 of them are mine!

[Ragamuffin]

Brian Reynolds where are you?
My First and Last post so chill homies.

/Rant on
Much like the quality of CivIII this patch is total crap, all they've done is tried fix a few game balance issues (corruption, AI Stupidity, Palace exploit) and typos. I ask you Firaxis, where's the BEEF!

Am I to assume the ultra expanisiont AI is intentional? Why is this AI behaviour necessary when it was not in CivII and SMAC? Why is it inevitable in every game that some militaristic civ start a war with me for no stated reason (he was gracious just a turn ago, but I knew what was up when his army began pouring into my borders and he was at war with no one at the time), was it this way in CivII and SMAC? WAS IT NOT a STATED GOAL of Brians and Sids to be able to win these game genres peacefully? My God not even the Hall of Fame screen is up to CivII standards WHAT IS THE DEAL?

Why won't the AI respect my borders when I've already proven my strength to them?
Why can't I get a warning when a civ is close to finishing a wonder 'ala CivII, I mean it makes some sense that my "embassy diplomats" or traveling citizens would report on some massive project over there that looks pretty close to done.
Why doesn't the game give me some idea as to my reputation. Why does the AI insist on trying to bully me into giving them stuff when it should be obvious to them that their knights stand little chance against tanks and bombers? (Hey you created the crappy resource seed not me)
Why can the AI's galleys cross the ocean without the GL when mine can not?
Why are expanionist civs worthless after the ancient era?
Why is espionage so impossibly expensive?
Is it really necessary for Romes 78 Knights to hold daily dance shows on my borders?
What is with the freaking 35 Workers forming a convoy through my land? Can't you somehow let the AI know that I WILL TURN THEIR SKINNY REAR ENDS INTO 70 SHIELDS CAUSE I'M SICK OF IT. I intentionally played on cheiftan last night just so I'd be sure to get the pleasure of nuking your pitiful AI into oblivion. It did release some frustration BUT NOT MUCH.

OH! 40 turns to get techs now, that'll be real nice on Monarch and Deity where the AI is getting techs every 2-4 STINKING NANOSECONDS. Why I've completely wiped out an AI, all money, all techs, all resources leaving them 1 city and the entire rest of the world still at war with him and why I'll be a Soren programmed AI Head if not 2 turns later he's 6 TECHS AHEAD OF ME AGAIN. I could go on all night but I'll digress, take a suggestion Firaxians, listen to your customers when they tell you this patch is a decent first step but no where close to what is required to fix this game. Given the time you've have had to discover just some of these problems (there's hoardes more), I was hoping for something more substantial than a rampaging barbarian hoarde of typo fixes. BAH!
/Rant off

[yin26]

Yoda is over 800 years old pal, no way he could of misquoted you, since you werent around! Don't spread lies about the small green wise man!!! Okay?

Thank you.

Yes, but the movie came out when I was a kid. Even by the time I was a kid, I was saying all kinds of amazing quotes that would stand the test of time.

'I can't believe it's not butter!' for instance was something I said when I was just 2 1/2 years old. An on-going court case is debating exactly how much I am to be compensated.

When Yoda was casted for the movie, he spent a weekend at my house. His only job was to keep the grill hot and ready for the steaks. He kept complaining that he was too short for the job. I remember then saying my famous words.

Knowing he was a hot actor at the time, I even specifically said: 'Listen little green midget: Use that line in a movie and I'll have your SAG card and that staff (which he uses only as a prop, by the way) shoved between those vulcan ears!" He claimed Spock stole the look from him, at which point I knew what I was dealing with.

So there I am in the theater watching that little puke run his lines and there it was: A bastardization of my brilliance a few months earlier. While the court finally did let him do a few more movies, it was at 1/10th of the normal SAG pay. I remember sitting there as the judge said:

"Green dwarves are bad enough. Unoriginal ones turn my stomach."

Ever seen Yoda cry? I have. And it was delicious!

[Venger]

Originally posted by MarkG
good god, do you want to play a great civ game

Yes. Is anyone releasing one soon?

or do you a miracle(firaxis releasing a version of civ with exactly the rules and settings that you want) to happen?

How about a finished game that builds on the success of prior games in the series and other TBS games with improved polish and gamplay, rather than a regressive combat system with a very buggy and unchallenging AI and poorly conceived and balanced border/corruption/culture./resource system, regressive and often useless/pointless tech tree (freaking LASER - point won), and obscene lack of unit variety?

Oh, and were you hoping to play a game with the rules and settings you wanted, or the rules and settings someone else wanted? Don't you want them a certain way for a reason, because...you think it's a better way? It's the same simple argument people make with "you always think you're right" - well no $hit, who would continue to believe something they think is wrong?

And only you are supposing that there is a juxtaposition between the rules and settings any of us may want and a good Civ game...there certainly is a juxtaposition between a good Civ game and what is currently installed in the Civ3 folder on my hard drive...

if you want to play a great civ game that has the rules that you like(even if turns out to be unbalanced ), use the freaking editor!

So Mark, does the patch balance or unbalance the game? Does fixing air superiority unbalance it, or changing privateers, or changing corruption, or subs, or the rate of city recidivism, or the effect of police stations, or any of the other changes in the game? Either it was balanced then (pick your pre-patch topic) or it's balanced now.

The game should be a complete work, balanced and elegant, out of the box. As it is now, it's Civ Construction Set, where you get to fix the game while barking expletives about a caravel sinking your sub (up to a 25% chance). Enjoy...

Venger

[siredgar]

When I played the original Civilization computer version game, I was amazed. Then, Civilization II was a huge surprise and I became an addict. However, Civilization III did not live up to its promise. That is why I don't think I will be rushing to buy Civilization IV, if it ever comes out.

Honestly though, I would suspect Infogrames as the culprit rather than Firaxis for any "rush-job" qualities to the game. As an investor, I have followed the company closely over the past year. Just so you know, I purchased IFGM stock based solely on Infogrames' acquisition of Hasbro Interactive, which effectively transferred ownership of the Civilization series to the French company. Anyhow, Infogrames seems much too power-hungry to care enough about this unique product.

I look forward to Patch #2 (with the ability to specify player starting locations).

Thanks.

[Jerk]

As for negativity, it depends. Do you feel that Firaxis and Infogrames have jerked around the public in any way? If not, then you no doubt find it hard to understand the negativity. I personally feel that they HAVE.

The next questions you asked are good ones: Do I post to punish Firaxis? In a way, yes. When I keep some of the negative points in the spotlight, I am making the decision to make sure that the past is not fogotten. How is this helpful?

History often repeats itself. But when it repeats itself in the face of constant reminders of previous failings, at some point Firaxis has to ask itself as a company: Are we going to do this better next time?

Or they can ignore us completely. Which, in many cases, I think they have done anyway ... which leads once again to the negativity. Will it help the cause?

I think it depends on the way it is done really. While many are constructive and maybe do persuade a few to not purchase the game, others go so far that they cause people to tune them out. One commercial or favorable rating by a game magazine will cause more people to buy the game then some negative remarks on a forum (even one as popular as this). This is even more true when the negative remarks are done with a bad attitude and rude comments. Those people who choose to be so negative to the point of being mean do a disfavor to your cause. After reading a few I am sure the casual poster or lurker will tend to just blow by the negative comments (including those that are constructive). This is because the bad posters tend to simply repeat the same things the good posters are only they do it in bad taste. I think more could be accomplished with a tad bit more civility. Perhaps an ON TOP thread could be created for general dislikes. Too keep the civility duplicate complaints would have to be deleted as well as the flames and trolls. Perhaps an entire new forum could be created for Post-Release suggestions. Simple rules could apply such as "One suggestion per thread". That suggestion could be debated (Pros/Cons) for such a change in the game. This would of course create a lot more work for our moderator which is sad because I think as a community we should be able to self regulate and behave on our own.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Venger
First - are engineers gone from Civ3? I certainly never got to build them, and they helped late game tedium by working twice as fast...

RTFM!!

Do us all a favour and at least UNDERSTAND the game before you complain about it!!

After discovering replacable parts, your workers now work twice as fast. Just by discovering that tech. And without you needing to rebuild your entire work-force just to get a speed increase.

The game should be a complete work, balanced and elegant, out of the box.

The game works fine for those of us who understand it
Go and actually play it for a while, and next time you post here, try to complain about something other than your lack of understanding.

[Libertarian]

First - stop thanking Firaxis for the patch. A patch is THE LEAST they can do for you, the person who paid THEM money. Thanking them is saying "thank you sir, may I have another"...

Well, that explains a great deal. About you.

When I think of Dan or Soren, alone at their desk at 4:00 AM, bleary-eyed, but plugging along anyway so they can try their best to meet unreasonable dealines for unreasonable deadbeats... And then when I think about self-righteous, sanctimonious puff-bags like you and Yen (and your spawn, ProblematicDog)...

It is to laugh. Ha!

[yin26]

Libertarian: You're right. I'm not grateful in the least for people having to work hard to make up for releasing shoddy work. When they earn my respect, I'll give it to them.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Venger
Oh, and were you hoping to play a game with the rules and settings you wanted, or the rules and settings someone else wanted?

i was hoping for a fun game whose rules i can adjust to my personal preferences in order to have an ever better (to me) game

So Mark, does the patch balance or unbalance the game?

perhaps it didnt cross your mind that not all editing choices unbalance the game. you probably didnt notice that i didnt express any certainty that changing the rules as you would like them to be would unbalance the game.

As it is now, it's Civ Construction Set, where you get to fix the game while barking expletives about a caravel sinking your sub (up to a 25% chance). Enjoy...

well, why dont you show firaxis how game designing is done and put out a mod with the "right" rules?

[Libertarian]

Yin

Are you truly so isolated from ecoculture that you do not understand the difference between a developer and a producer? If your boss orders you to skimp on the cherries in your banana splits, but you try to make it up to your customers by adding a bit of extra carmel sauce, and they rag on you that you've released to them a shoddy banana split ...

Could you explain to me why those customers aren't jackasses?

[UltraSonix]

Firstly, I haven't been back to Apolyton Civ3 in about a year... and I'm pretty sad - I wasn't going post here and was just going to read the posts a see people's reactions on the patch.

Unfortunately the reactions were mostly... uncalled for. Why does everyone feel such negativity here now? I think for Firaxis to even get the game into its current state, with all the playtesting and balancing that's required is quite an effort.
So what if it's not up to [insert your name here] standards? I think Firaxis had to make a choice between mass market appeal and satisfying hard core players like us - like Markos said somewhere, this is a captalist society - hey, at least I had fun playing it, despite the quirks.

Once upon a time threads surfaces time to time about what features we wanted in Civ3. Always two were on top: AI and improved diplomacy. I think in these main aspects Firaxis has done well... and they deserve credit for that, why so much negativity now.

Ah well, that was my two cents worth - I think it's pretty sad that the game I was looking forward to for so long has now cause the Apolyton Civ3 to end up like this

[edit]
Wow... even after this post people just don't care - quite sad indeed - ah well... I think this login will lie dormant now.

Bye all.
[/edit]

---


Ah well, to make this post relevant to the thread, though this certainly isn't the only irrelevant thread here - the patch is a good start - a minor fix that is VERY welcome is the UN thing. And I havent read any of the other threads here - but is the massive corruption even under democracy intended? Like I'd conquer half the world and most of my conquered towns will be producing 1 shield per turn and losing 15 to corruption...

[Doc Paradox]

After a long time of not playing CIV anything I finally got CIV 3 as an early xmas present and came back to the forums to see what was up.
It's made for some interesting reading during downtime.
One thing that does stand out is that there IS a huge difference of opinion on what a finished product should be. All this fuss over a product that costs a shift at McDonald's (or a billable half-hour) to buy. Granted, I've only put in 20-30 hours of gameplay on CIV3 and haven't run into many of the bugs mentioned (although not being able to run air superiority would send me through the roof) but the one sentiment that seems to make the most sense in all these bug threads is that it is a GAME folks, a really, really complex game. Hopefully the patch will fix the most egregious faults like precision bombing and air superiority and corruption. It just seems odd that some of us armchair Napoleons are ready to blow a gasket over it. What would a REAL leader do with a situation that didn't go as expected or planned, or with a less than perfect product. You work around it. The way I see it (even though I DO want the bugs fixed) is that CIV with bugs IS realism, the "Whoops, we just spent half the GDP on missle defense and it don't work" variety. It ain't a perfect world so why should we expect a perfect game?
BTW, even WITH the bugs CIV3 is computer crack and my fiancee is beginning to regret buying it for me. I just wish I had as much time to play it as some people obviously do.
P.S. This has not been a paid commercial announcement from Firaxis or Infogrammes

[vihutuo]

"Air superiority is fixed"

Thank God!!

[rjpageuk]

Doc Paradox: I agree with everything you said, I wish I had enough time to play it too!

The Moaners: I am sorry the game doesnt meet your infinite expectations, and in which case I suggest you take your lazy rear ends to a computer where you can program yourself the game you want. And stop moaning!

The Programmers: Fantastic list of fixes/additions in the patch, I hope you keep up the good work.

Note: I have been playing the Civ games since CivI, and while not really into the mod community, I have enjoyed using such mods with CivII. I have no problem with automating my workers, and watching them improve my tiles, and they have done so well, in my opinion.

I have to say that CivIII is without doubt the best Civ yet.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Yin

Are you truly so isolated from ecoculture that you do not understand the difference between a developer and a producer? If your boss orders you to skimp on the cherries in your banana splits, but you try to make it up to your customers by adding a bit of extra carmel sauce, and they rag on you that you've released to them a shoddy banana split ...

Could you explain to me why those customers aren't jackasses?

Or, to make it perhaps more relevant to Yin:

Let's say your boss orders you to use pork in the beef bulgogi, because it's cheaper. You try to make it up to the customers by giving them a little extra soju on the side. This fails to quell their anger over being given cheap pork bulgogi, so they drag you outside and, using their best drunken Tae Kwan Do, kick your a$$ right into the Han river. Is this fair to you?

Firaxis is trying to make good what Infogrames made wrong, i.e. a hard release date to meet when the product wasn't quite ready. Complain about the product if you must (although if you don't own it, really, why are you still complaining? ), but please refrain from disparaging the employees at Firaxis for trying to do their best to make a bad situation better.

Lastly, for all the people who think the game is a worthless, bug-ridden piece of cr@p, try building a better one. It is far easier to destroy a thing than to create one; judging by the posts of a few malcontents on this board it is far easier still to sit idly by and criticize something. Rest assured, if you can create a better game than CivIII, I will gladly hand you fifty bucks for your efforts.

[Binni]

Hi, I'm new here and I registered because I wanted to submit my opinion on what would be a very welcome fix to the game.

The game only runs in 1024x768 resolution which IMHO is a huge mistake. Many people these days have only laptops as their primary computer and a large number of these laptops can only display 800x600 resolution. My father who is a huge Civ fan was very dissapointed with this because it means he can't play it. My girlfriend also has a 800x600 resolution only on her laptop and she wasn't very happy as well. An option to change the resolution would be a very welcome addition. I realise that playing the game with a smaller display area wouldn't be an optimal performance for the game, but at least it would mean that more people could play it.

Does anyone else have any views about this subject?

Cheers,

Binni

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by Doc Paradox

After a long time of not playing CIV anything I finally got CIV 3 as an early xmas present and came back to the forums to see what was up.

It's made for some interesting reading during downtime.

One thing that does stand out is that there IS a huge difference of opinion on what a finished product should be. All this fuss over a product that costs a shift at McDonald's (or a billable half-hour) to buy. Granted, I've only put in 20-30 hours of gameplay on CIV3 and haven't run into many of the bugs mentioned (although not being able to run air superiority would send me through the roof) but the one sentiment that seems to make the most sense in all these bug threads is that it is a GAME folks, a really, really complex game. Hopefully the patch will fix the most egregious faults like precision bombing and air superiority and corruption. It just seems odd that some of us armchair Napoleons are ready to blow a gasket over it. What would a REAL leader do with a situation that didn't go as expected or planned, or with a less than perfect product. You work around it. The way I see it (even though I DO want the bugs fixed) is that CIV with bugs IS realism, the "Whoops, we just spent half the GDP on missle defense and it don't work" variety. It ain't a perfect world so why should we expect a perfect game?

BTW, even WITH the bugs CIV3 is computer crack and my fiancee is beginning to regret buying it for me. I just wish I had as much time to play it as some people obviously do.

P.S. This has not been a paid commercial announcement from Firaxis or Infogrammes

Why should we threat software different from everything else. When you pay for something, you expect it to work (reasonably) well don't you?

And I don't think that "but software is so complex" is a good excuse for selling a buggy product. A car is a very complex machine too, but you still expect the damn thing to not break down after the first left turn.

I think one of the biggest reasons for publishers to push unfinished products out the door, is because they _know_ people will buy it regardless of bugs and patiently sit and wait for the patches to come along. As long as the public don't expect and demand relatively bugfree products, we will never get them.

/Rant of the day

Y-S

[deanco]

Urg, no sentry command there...but the build queues have been fixed, that's cool. I DO miss the sentry command, though, I gotta admit.

Originally posted by barefootbadass


Why? So your troops can prance around back and forth like the ai does?

Heheh...Yeah, patrolling the borders, making the world safe for Despotism...

I dunno, I gotta vent a bit. Seems like a several 'fixes' are actually a step backwards. Like, now the cities will build the same unit over and over again. Great news. I can't tell you how annoying it was to see my size 3 city want to build Sun Tzu's Art of War. But Civ 1 had that feature, as did Civ 2, CTP.... Communism evens out corruption now. Great. But Civ 1 had that as well, and it worked out of the box. Now you get a popup if your city is in civil disorder. Fantastic. Where did they get that idea from? The sentry command is still not there. Why? It was incredibly useful in Civ 1, and it's gone, adding to micromanagement hell.

What I'm saying is, you've got a situation where the developers took features that were basically not broken, and broke them. Now they're putting them back they way they were. I'm not ungrateful, but I'm just asking myself how many 'kudos' they really deserve for this.

DeanCo--

[Risky]

Does the patch solve the bug that some of the vivs didn't show in the diplomacy screen (F4) making it impossible to see who had alliances etc?

Otherwise sounds useful.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth
And I don't think that "but software is so complex" is a good excuse for selling a buggy product. A car is a very complex machine too, but you still expect the damn thing to not break down after the first left turn.

would you accept it if companies went out and said: "ok, we'll release 95-99% bug-free games but they will take 9-12 months more to release and their price will be double"???

[Kokuei]

Originally posted by Binni
Hi, I'm new here and I registered because I wanted to submit my opinion on what would be a very welcome fix to the game.

The game only runs in 1024x768 resolution which IMHO is a huge mistake. Many people these days have only laptops as their primary computer and a large number of these laptops can only display 800x600 resolution. My father who is a huge Civ fan was very disappointed with this because it means he can't play it. My girlfriend also has a 800x600 resolution only on her laptop and she wasn't very happy as well. An option to change the resolution would be a very welcome addition. I realise that playing the game with a smaller display area wouldn't be an optimal performance for the game, but at least it would mean that more people could play it.

Does anyone else have any views about this subject?

Cheers,

Binni

Binni,

If you check the readme file, or have a look at the threads in the Civ3 help forum, you'll see that there is a resolution setting you can set in the "civilization3.ini" file.

The line KeepRes=1 in this file will force the game to display in the same resolution as you're already in. I know this works for bigger screens, not sure what it does with smaller ones though.

Another thing to remember is that game clearly states that you have to have at least 1024x768 to play the game in the way it was intended.

Another thing is that although I know a lot of laptops will default to 800x600 resolution, that doesn't mean you can't change them to higher resolutions in Windows Control Panel.

Hope this helps.

Kokuei

[Risky]

Originally posted by MarkG
would you accept it if companies went out and said: "ok, we'll release 95-99% bug-free games but they will take 9-12 months more to release and their price will be double"???

The important thing is that patches appear early and often. In a game of this complexity there are going to be a few bugs to fix and features to tweak. Always.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by MarkG

would you accept it if companies went out and said: "ok, we'll release 95-99% bug-free games but they will take 9-12 months more to release and their price will be double"???

You were probably just making a point, but I hardly agree that making a more or less bugfree will double it's prize. Why does it cost double to fix them before release than after?

Are you implying that software companies newer tries to make their software bugfree, because that's to expensive?!

And I would gladly have waited while Firaxis hacked away on civ3 for a few more months, if that would make the game better.

[Binni]

Kokuei, thanks

Let me clarify one thing though. I'm not talking about the default setting on laptops. Many laptops just can't have higher resolutions than 800x600 and therefore can't do anything about this.

Civ 3 is the perfect game to play on laptops so I'm sure this was a big dissapointment to many people because I know at least 3 or 4 personally who were saddened by this

[Matthevv]

"Any unit which moves from one tile adjacent to a ZOC unit to another tile adjacent to that same unit has a chance for a passing shot. "

This would explain why the coastal fortifications never shoot. The enemy ship moves in adjacent, fires, then moves away. They don't go from one adjacent square to the next.

Coastal fortresses seem to work like magic for me so far though. I've never seen the AI bombard one of my cities after I built one. I can't see if the AI city has one though. Its a pity there isn't a graphic change, as there is for city walls.