Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[greggbert]

Great patch. I hope reducing corruption doesn't affect the high number of powerful enemy civs that survive until modern age.

There are 3 other bugs I saw discussed here that don't appear to be addressed in readme.txt

1) Recon missions off aircraft carriers leave some sqares permanently visible.

2) Coastal Fortresses do not take shots at passing enemy ships.

3) SAM Air defense does not appear to shoot down planes.

4) Ships revealed by recon dissapear immediately after attacked but not destroyed by a bomber during the same turn.


Also. HOW IS AIR SUPERIORITY INTENDED TO WORK? The manual is vague...

[AHO]

Wow! What a list! It really does look like Firaxis is listening. Thanks!

While the pessimistic part of me looks at this massive list and thinks, hmmmm, sure were a LOT of things wrong with this game, the optimist in me can hardly wait to get the patch and start playing again!

[Magician]

Originally posted by volcanohead
4. Scripting language: can Firaxis confirm this will NOT be developed?
V

yeah please tell us Firaxis..

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Cavalier_13
Lovely.....I like the new changes coming up.

I was wondering if any of the fixes were going to help with the time between turns as they do tend to get rather high in the later game.

All in all, nice fixes, and hope to see that patch soon!

Cavalier

the main change is that you can stop the computer from even showing you certain moves. For example, if you are tired of watching your workers move around the map while automating, just turn off "Show Automated Moves" in the Preferences Window. The same could be done for friendly or enemy civs. This speeds up the end turns a great deal...

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Gramphos

Is there a reason for this?
Is there a limit currently?

It has to do with the way the city network is calculated (for determining resource access and other things). Since each civ needs to have all this data stored in memory, the memory footprint expands exponentially as a factor of the max number of cities. Increasing this further would dramatically increase the amount of RAM needed to play the game from what I understand.

Currently (v1.07f) there is a limit, but I think it's lower than 512, and the game will crash if you exceed it, which is probably the cause of a lot of the reported errors users are associating with large savegame sizes. I believe this is also the cause of the so-called "tile of death" bug, so the patch will solve this, albeit by disallowing additional cities after the limit is hit.

Dan

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Xeinth
Wish costal bombardment had been fixed. Does this mean they are still worthless? Other than that, looks great. It will help a lot! I will be interested to see the magnitude of the corruption fix.

X

As far as I am aware, coastal fortresses work as designed. They always fire at passing ships, but you only hear a sound effect/see a result if it hits. The calculation is the same for units with ZOC, which basically treats those units as temporary artillery units with one shot at passing units.

Also, the offense value of the coastal fortress is not very high, so one of the reason people have not seen mauch of an effect is that the coastal fortress has a very low chance of hitting modern ships. Of course, this value is in the editor, so if you want to increase the probability of hitting passing units, just increase it.

Great....so uhhhh....where is the combat modification? Do warriors still beat our tanks? Thanks for increasing the probability of assimilation through culture too!! I just found that my cities didn't revert back very often. I mean when I take over a city of the AI, I don't want to keep that thing for 5 turns. Seriously, shouldn't that be around 1 turn or at most 2 turns? And I just love the tech cap change!!! 40 turns for republic!! I can't wait. And no more rush building wonders...simply brilliant!! 100 turns for a wonder is right up my alley. Any faster and I would think maybe I'm making progress in the game, but this way I feel like the game will go on forever, because as you know I just can't get enough of this game. I could go on and on, but somehow I don't think you really meant this game to be a big hit.

http://www.ensemblestudios.com/aom/screenshot.shtml That is a real game. That game has play testers testing it from the very day it was in the works. That game has popularity and top notch support. Take notes.

[volcanohead]

Very good of both Soren and Dan to show up! Thanks for the input guys.

One other issue on the turn speed is the inability to move units in stacks - can you rate putting stacks in as an easy/hard/almost impossible programming task?

And am I right in thinking that the changes in culture make it harder for the AI to capture citiies but easier for the player? How great is the change?

Good work!

V

[RickBlaine]

While this patch does not address every change that I would like in the game (examples include stack movement, accessing the Civlopedia from the city menu), I think some of the critics here are being overly harsh. This is a pretty good list for a first patch, and I highly doubt that Firaxis is even close to being done with the development of this game. That said, hehe, I would like some further clarification of SAMs and coastal fortresses: are they now working as intended, or is there still little reason to build them? The changes to corruption are somewhat vague, but I am sure they will be clearer by time the patch is released. I particularly liked the change allowing police stations to lower corruption; I did not object as much to the corruption rate (though I feel it was too high and the reduction was in order) as to the fact that there was so little that the player could do to counter it after a certain point.

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by EnigmaticGod
That game has play testers testing it from the very day it was in the works.

An approach Bruce Shelley learned off Sid Meier, who has used it for all his games...

[Zealot]

Let me just say that pushing the turns for new techs to 40 turns will:

1. Slow down the beginning of the game.
Now we will have a slow, boring begining game, in addition to the boring middle, late game. Hurray for that...
2. Increase the technological gap between bad players and good players (including AI).
I'm sure this increase of turns was exactly to make the opposite, but good players will remain good players, while bad players will always take some time to become good players.
3. Discovering a 40 turn tech could become suicide for that civ, since that tech can be discovered at a much lower number of turns if other civs already discovered it.

When is the 2nd patch coming out?

lol Don't even try it snap. This game didn't have playtesters, not like AOM has. AOM has REAL players playing it, guys who played Age of empires 1 and 2 and who were experts that competed in tournaments. This game at best had a few lame brained programmers who fiddled with the units and then put a stamp of approval on the game.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Zealot
Let me just say that pushing the turns for new techs to 40 turns will:

1. Slow down the beginning of the game.
Now we will have a slow, boring begining game, in addition to the boring middle, late game. Hurray for that...
2. Increase the technological gap between bad players and good players (including AI).
I'm sure this increase of turns was exactly to make the opposite, but good players will remain good players, while bad players will always take some time to become good players.
3. Discovering a 40 turn tech could become suicide for that civ, since that tech can be discovered at a much lower number of turns if other civs already discovered it.

When is the 2nd patch coming out?

The min and max turns for research are now in the editor, so feel free to change it to whatever you think is more appropriate.

Dan

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Zealot
Let me just say that pushing the turns for new techs to 40 turns will:

2. Increase the technological gap between bad players and good players (including AI).

Ahem ... didn´t a vast majority of forum members pray for that?

BTW, min. and max. number of turns to discover a tech can now be changed in the editor.

Edit: Dan Magaha answered Zealot while I was still typing.

Thanks again Magaha!

"The min and max turns for research are now in the editor, so feel free to change it to whatever you think is more appropriate."

Yes, feel free to change our shoddy workmanship. We can't actually make the game so there is a standard way of playing. Instead we encourage you to finish the development of the game by moding it and changing the rules in order to tweak the gameplay for us. We would like to thank all our beta testers of apolyton for their cooperation and their hard earned money. Have a problem? Talk to our lawyers.

[Jaybe]

Changes:
* Cultural priority of AI has been reduced

Could someone explain this situation to me (or point me to the right thread)??

In my experience, through Regent level, the AI seemes to have too LOW of a priority on culture, allowing non-core cities to build no culture at all for centuries on end.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
The min and max turns for research are now in the editor, so feel free to change it to whatever you think is more appropriate.
Dan

Thank you for telling me that. I appreciated that.
But I would also appreciate if you could please tell us why did you increase the standard!

Lockstep, I never "heard" any of those prayers...

[Sevorak]

While I appreciate the many changes and fixes applied in the patch, I have to note that no significant functionality was added to the editor. Yes, min and max tech turns were added, which will be great for modding, but aside from that, there is still no full add/delete for units, improvements, labourers etc. and still no ability to place units and cities on the map. Should we be expecting these in a further patch?

-Sev

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Zealot


Thank you for telling me that. I appreciated that.
But I would also appreciate if you could please tell us why did you increase the standard!

Lockstep, I never "heard" any of those prayers...

Zealot, I'm really not sure (perhaps Soren or Jeff would know), I just wanted to let you guys know that this is editable now.

Dan

[Barchan]

Originally posted by EnigmaticGod
Thanks again Maggot!

"The min and max turns for research are now in the editor, so feel free to change it to whatever you think is more appropriate."

Yes, feel free to change our shoddy workmanship. We can't actually make the game so there is a standard way of playing. Instead we encourage you to finish the development of the game by moding it and changing the rules in order to tweak the gameplay for us. We would like to thank all our beta testers of apolyton for their cooperation and their hard earned money. Have a problem? Talk to our lawyers.

C'mon, now, isn't that a bit unfair? People have been screaming up and down for more options. Now Firaxis gives them to us and we berate them for doing so?

Look, the game will never be all things to all people, but the people who work at Firaxis (Dan and Soren aren't faceless corporations, you know, they're people) seem to be working very hard to address fans' concerns and complaints. Maybe you could cut them a little slack, huh?

[AnnC]

We really, really need a designated-defender command for combat units (like the one in SMAC).

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by RickBlaine
While this patch does not address every change that I would like in the game (examples include stack movement, accessing the Civlopedia from the city menu), I think some of the critics here are being overly harsh. This is a pretty good list for a first patch, and I highly doubt that Firaxis is even close to being done with the development of this game. That said, hehe, I would like some further clarification of SAMs and coastal fortresses: are they now working as intended, or is there still little reason to build them? The changes to corruption are somewhat vague, but I am sure they will be clearer by time the patch is released. I particularly liked the change allowing police stations to lower corruption; I did not object as much to the corruption rate (though I feel it was too high and the reduction was in order) as to the fact that there was so little that the player could do to counter it after a certain point.

The bug which affected interception also affected SAM batteries, so they were broke in the original version but will now work with the patch.

[wotan321]

Come on EnigmaticGod, please lighten up. Yer showing your @ss here. That patch took a lot of work, and though more can be done, this was a very good start.

[Cavalier_13]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


the main change is that you can stop the computer from even showing you certain moves. For example, if you are tired of watching your workers move around the map while automating, just turn off "Show Automated Moves" in the Preferences Window. The same could be done for friendly or enemy civs. This speeds up the end turns a great deal...

Wow! A Fixaian answered me! Woooo!

Thanks for the quick reply, Soren, but I was wondering more the deal with the huge slowdowns on larger maps when the Trade Network/Cultural Influence borders were changed. As it is now, in the late 900's AD, if I pillage a road or destroy a harbour (or create a harbour), the system stops responding for a good amount of time (from 2 - 5 minutes I have seen) while it recalculates the whole Trade Network.

I was wondering if anything could be done to speed that up, maybe a new algorithm, different coding, modifying the way the trade network works, something.

And when you get Airports, it goes to hell!

The ability to not show units moving at all is a very good addition, and for one I welcome since in the later game, spying on enemy troop movements to see where they are. I have to see their movement for the turn so I get to avoid this now.

As I said, a welcomed patch with a goodly number of fixes.

Cavalier

I'm well aware they're not the corporation. But the way they handle complaints is to say "Don't like it, don't play it". Or "Don't like it, edit it". Did civ2 need to be edited and moded in order for it to be fun? Civ2 had a standard. A standard everyone used and played and enjoyed. This game doesn't. Also, Dan and the other guys don't really address the problems. They just deal with them. It's complete lack of commitment to the game. I've said it before, as soon as you say "nice patch" they'll say "Thanks, enjoy the game. We'll see you when civ 4 comes out."

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Zealot, I'm really not sure (perhaps Soren or Jeff would know), I just wanted to let you guys know that this is editable now.

Dan

Ok, thanks. I'll wait for a response from them then.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by EnigmaticGod
Thanks again Magaha!

"The min and max turns for research are now in the editor, so feel free to change it to whatever you think is more appropriate."

Yes, feel free to change our shoddy workmanship. We can't actually make the game so there is a standard way of playing. Instead we encourage you to finish the development of the game by moding it and changing the rules in order to tweak the gameplay for us. We would like to thank all our beta testers of apolyton for their cooperation and their hard earned money. Have a problem? Talk to our lawyers.

So which would you rather have? Swiss? American? Cheddar? Provolone? Which cheese would you like with your WHINE?

Actually you should be thankful that the editor allows PLAYERS to twiddle with the game settings so they are how the PLAYERS want them if they don't like the default. Are you saying you'd rather have a game where the parameters are set in stone and you have NO CHANCE of altering them to suit you?

Maybe you have played AOK (great game) and it's SET build orders and very linear "if you don't do this and this and this in that order you will lose" every game?? I for one LIKE the idea that I can change stuff to SUIT me. After all the whining and complaining from people here who don't like this or that with the game when it came out, you know, the DEFAULT settings, I'd think more people would be thrilled with the ability to change more stuff.

I guess you can't please everyone..

Oh, and if you dislike the game so much, why don't you return it and put your money where your mouth was. Otherwise, change the game to SUIT YOU and stop complaining about things in the game you feel aren't "right", that's what the editor is for.

[Disk Killer]

Just wanted to thank Firaxis for listening to our comments and complaints and taking them seriously, and look forward to further patching in the future. [Always the mark of a company that cares about its customers, instead of leaving them out to dry.]

And please don't let those that are never satisfied dissaude you from continuing to improve your product, I can assure you the people happy with the effort far exceed those expecting you to be mind-reading savants with a talent for human-like Artificial Intelligence algorithm programming.

[IBNobody]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


the main change is that you can stop the computer from even showing you certain moves. For example, if you are tired of watching your workers move around the map while automating, just turn off "Show Automated Moves" in the Preferences Window. The same could be done for friendly or enemy civs. This speeds up the end turns a great deal...

Despite all the moaning and groaning, I just wanted to say "Thank You".

This was my #1 complaint with Civ 3, as it was the limiting force in how long I could tolerate playing a given round of Civ3.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

- Nobody

[Bill3000]

Heh... This is great stuff for a first patch!

One thing though: Will the patch fix that stupid bug when you are playing a scenario that you could not select what tech you wanted to choose?