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Old December 7, 2001, 15:59   #1
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Wherefore the Anger?
What is the source of all the harshly critical posts on these forums? Is the fault with Firaxis and Infogrames, or are too many of us overexpectant whining crybabies?

I was just wondering about the last Firaxis release, SMAC. Does anyone remember disappointment and anger at the publisher and developer being this virulent?

I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.

I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation. Also, Firaxis' and Infogrames' heavy-handed treatment of the enthusiast community has exacerbated the situation.

I am interested in others' perceptions.
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Old December 7, 2001, 16:32   #2
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It's immaturity. When a child doesn't get things exactly as they want them, they act out.

Civ III is a great game that has a few bugs; they're being addressed.

The inane ranting stems from those who cannot adjust to what the game actually is and insist that it becomes what they want it to be. Immaturity.
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Old December 7, 2001, 17:12   #3
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Actually, IMHO what really causes it is the Holy Defender of Firaxis (TM) horde of fanboys. Try reading a few threads. There's a group who'll never post a single line of useful information, just flame everyone who dares as little as have a question about the game. Even more so if -- God forbid -- you dare have an idea or discuss how it could be improved. What, the game isn't 100% PERFECT? Pure heresy! Starting a history thread automatically prompts someone to jump in and flame, without even bothering to check what's written there. I.e., whether anyone is actually complaining about realism, or just, you know, discussing about it.

Anything short of posting "Yay! It's the greatest game of all time!" is unacceptable, for some people.

(And in all fairness, can't even blame them. If you look at the official Firaxis owned www.civ3.com you'll notice that half of it it's Sid Meier making verbal love to himself. PREACHING about how great a designer he is, and we should all just believe him. Instead of, you know, just proving it with a great game. Letting the facts speak. And most of the other half, is the rest of Firaxis singing high praise to him. Guess with that kind of shameless hype, it's only normal to attract that kind of fanboy who lives for hype.)

And some of us, myself included, are immature enough to flame right back when we're flamed and called names for nothing. I'll freely admit that I've called the game stuf that I normally wouldn't have, in the course of answering to flames. I've questioned the AI, even though I don't really mind its being dumber than a half brick in a sock. (Yes, it's very poor AI, but I don't mind winning. Saves me the bother of looking for cheats, really.) I did however start minding only getting the standard (and false) "you're only whining because you can't beat the AI". I wouldn't have even NOTICED (or tried to examine) how the AI works, if I hadn't read that answer every couple of threads. And so on.

Dunno, maybe it means I'm a troll. But even a true troll will go away if he doesn't get attention. Mass flaming in defense of Firaxis doesn't solve anything. Never did, never will.

That said, yes, I'll still maintain that scientist is right. Civ III is an inferior product, with not enough innovation to be called a new game. At most it might be called a mod or expansion pack to Civ II. I've seen free mods for CTP2 which added more than Civ 3 adds. And insisting on "look at what's new since Civ II" is a pointless tactic. There have been several other games since Civ 2. Compare it to THOSE, not with something from many years ago. The world has moved on, while Firaxis seems to be stuck at a moment in time that was long ago.

But again, that's not even the main reason. As I did say before, Civ 2 was a great game, and SMAC was a great game. And I don't really mind THAT much playing a tweaked re-release of Civ 2, with some parts from SMAC retro-fitted. Even if I did pay the price of a full new game for it, wth, I can think of far worse stuff that I've bought.

But flaming breeds flaming. Again, some of us are both immature AND bored, and will flame right back.
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Old December 7, 2001, 17:29   #4
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I think the problem lies with the whiners and their refusal to accept anything less than Firaxians being the spawn of hell and Civ3 being the worst game in the history of computering. These are the people who called Dan Mahaga a maggot. These are the people who accused Firaxis employees, who visit the forum regularly and harvest feedback, of spitting in our faces. These are the people who act like drunks in a blind rage. They troll the board (while accusing US of trolling), and spout their vemon in every thread. They even open whole new threads for their childish venting. Often duplicates. And often multiples per hour.

I've been assured it will pass. I will hail the day.
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Old December 7, 2001, 18:09   #5
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And you're any better, Libertarian? So far I've seen only 1 (one) post from you ammounting to anything constructive. The rest are drivel like the above, which serve no purpose other than to throw fuel on the fire and make people even more angry.

Yes, ONE person called someone a maggot. As a result you call a LOT of people whiners and whatnot, without even bothering to read what they wrote. Gee, that's GOT to be more constructive. No, really.

Starting duplicate threads? Look at how many duplicate threads got started only today by the Holy Defenders of Firaxis (TM), for no obvious reason other than to insult the "whiners." I'm talking posts with zero useful content.

Fact is, for better or worse, a lot of us have posted very detailed stuff, including ideas of what could possibly make it better. That is, the whole purpose was to make the game better, not to raze Firaxis, plough the place and throw salt. And people like you, answered... what? "Go away, whiner" or variants thereof. Gee, that's got to be an informed and good rebutal of their ideas.

Yes, it is possible that those ideas are brain-dead and would just ruin the game. Care to actually explain WHY and IN WHAT WAY? Or if it's been discussed before, point us at that discussion? I mean, really, some of us are more retarded and can't grasp all the details of what's wrong with an idea just from such enlightened sentences as "These are the people who act like drunks in a blind rage."

Either way, deal with it. Acting like a 9 year old who's insulted by the mere fact that someone can dislike his favourite toy, isn't going to make anyone just go away.
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Old December 7, 2001, 18:24   #6
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Hey, shut up and go play the game. That's what it's for, right? And if not, go play something else.
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Old December 7, 2001, 18:37   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Hey, shut up and go play the game. That's what it's for, right? And if not, go play something else.
And why exactly did you post this? Perhaps he is at work and can't play right now...you know, a job where they give you a check?

I think alot of the "perceived" anger is directed at the other posters who contribute nothing, as the two fanboys above have shown, and throw the first stone.

Some of the omissions in Civ III, like sentry mode, stacked movement (need i go on? we've heard it all before) are pretty damn obvious and there appears to be no relief in the patch.

Here is a cluestick for people whining about "whiners". We paid money for the game. I was smart and took mine back. I may purchase Civ III if some of the omissions from the prior Civs are included but why regress?

Civ III is great in some areas but way poor in other areas that are fundamental to the game. I don't think anyone can deny that.

The first thing I do when I want to buy a game is check all the message/fan boards I can. It really helps to know what the dedicated gamers think because that is where the true value of a game comes from, its replayability.

I hope you are aware also of the scenario community's angst in this issue as well?

Anyway, fanboys attempt to drown out any criticism of the game. Sometimes I think they are paid by company because who can be so dense as to not want good debate? They have no point and are maddeningly frustrating in their obvious attempts to drown valid criticism and hijack a thread. Quite honestly, it wouldn't surprise me.
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Old December 7, 2001, 18:55   #8
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Hmm. Perhaps I was misunderstood.

What I mean to say is, all this debate, although some of it definitely gets on my nerves a little, is all well and good if it is actually discussing the game itself, patch etc. That's what Apolyton is (hopefully) all about. But, in the case of a thread like this (that I am ironically helping to extend ) it seems to me that everyhting has suddenly got very far off topic, and is really, well, rather pointless.

I admit the flaws in Civ3 and some others that have changed since Civ2 that I can no longer use to my advantage, but overall I am enjoying the game. I HAVE to if I paid all that money for it!

I have had 10 years of Civ experience in all the games featured at Apolyton except TOT and CTP2, and my advice is to say what irks you about the game, how to fix it, what you like, what should be there etc. There is NONE of that here. And what is this thread about? Has anyone even posted anything in this thread answering scientist's questions?


Oh, and if ppl are at work, should you really be writing in here on your boss' time?
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Old December 7, 2001, 19:00   #9
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Actually, now I'm at home and waiting for someone to post a hack of the new editor, so I can mod the bleedin' thing. (You know the complaint, it's been posted before by us 9 year old whiners: the lame crippled editor supplied doesn't even have an Add button for most stuff. It's worse than editing .txt files, for crying out loud. And there still doesn't seem to be any scripting support...)

I'll admit though that a lot of the posts have been done from work. I'm between assignments, and, well, have nothing better to do. Especially since even though it's a 2D game, it somehow absolutely needs the latest and greatest DirectX, so it won't run on that NT 4.0 workstation even if I wanted to play it at work. (How about just using the GDI for a 2D game, anyway? It's not like the game can even scroll more than in square increments, so it really makes zero difference if you can render 100 frames per second or just 10.)

Hey, I did say I'm immature and bored
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Old December 7, 2001, 19:00   #10
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Old December 7, 2001, 19:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by scientist
I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation.
And I will argue the exact opposite opinion. Civ-3 is a wastly superior game, compared to SMAC - especially in terms of gameplay-innovation and general AI-improvement.

See - theres no such thing as "an objective viewpoint" then it comes to these things.
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Old December 7, 2001, 20:43   #12
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I really don't understand why the "I love Civ 3" cult take it personally when people take Firaxis to issue on the game or their public relations. Time and again you prove yourselves unable to accept that maybe Firaxis screwed up. Maybe we shouldn't lick their boots when they tease us with scenario-making and mutliplaying capabilities. Why should people swamp threads with flames towards people critical of Firaxis or Infogrames? You obviously don't seem to want to have a good rapport with the established community (since the cult is heavily populated by newbies) because the first things we hear from you are always flames. You never seem to contribute anything to any conversation; all you can ever seem to say is "Civ 3 is the best and you suck." I really don't know why you waste your time making such useless posts. They don't do you any good, they don't do us any good, they don't do anyone any good.
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Old December 7, 2001, 21:12   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ralf And I will argue the exact opposite opinion. Civ-3 is a wastly superior game, compared to SMAC - especially in terms of gameplay-innovation and general AI-improvement.
THAT I have no problem with. If nothing else, it means you've got your money's worth out of it. That's good.

Quote:
See - theres no such thing as "an objective viewpoint" then it comes to these things.
True, but we can still talk about it. After all, I might learn some of the things you like, and maybe I've missed. It is entirely possible that I've missed some of the finer points, or dismissed them as minor tweaks when they really make a whole world of a difference. It can happen.

Or it's simply possible that we like different kind of games. As I often say, if we all liked the exact same things, the world would be a rather boring place.

All I've been trying to say in this thread, is that IMHO this place would be better if we concentrated on what is good or bad about the game (or rather on what we subjectively liked or disliked), instead of debating who's a whiner, who's a troll, and who's a maggot. That's all. (And I'm not saying that you've done any of that. My beef is with completely other people.)
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Old December 7, 2001, 21:15   #14
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Hoek,

Flames? Useless posts?

Do you mean ones that use terms like "cult" or "lick their boots" or "newbies"? Such observations as "you never seem to contribute anything to any conversation"? That sort of thing?
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Old December 7, 2001, 21:17   #15
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Quote:
I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.
LOL! Could that be because they shut it down? Hilarious ...
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Old December 7, 2001, 21:26   #16
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Shattered expectations
Scientist:
The reason I am angry over Civ3 is that the folk at Fixaris simply ignored what was out there, and I also believe, the community:

Before Civ2 there was only Civ. was Civ2 better than civ and bring in lots of revolutionary changes while keeping that wich we loved? Yes.

Before SMAC there was Civ2, it add-ons and Civ. Did SMAC bring in brand new gameing concepts and revolutionary improvements while keeping around those gaming practices that we loved? Yes.

Before Civ3 there were SMAC, its add-ons, Civ2, its add-ons, Civ, and also CtP and CtP2 and their add-ons. Did Civ3 make revolutionary changes to the series while keeping those concepts that made the previous games great, or learn from the mistakes and adapt worthwile ideas from those games that many thought were partial failures? NO.

That NO is why i am angry and disappointed about this game.
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Old December 7, 2001, 21:53   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
I really don't know why you waste your time making such useless posts. They don't do you any good, they don't do us any good, they don't do anyone any good.
Hoek.

The most missguided posters around here, are those who simply cannot accept how the overal game-mechanical framework is designed in Civ-3. Such criticism really are 100% pointless and meaningless, since nobody really can do anything about it at this stage - least of all Firaxis.

The ONLY thing Firaxis can do at this stage, is minor gameplay & feature-related adjustments, and addons to the existing features (like more editor-options, for example). Later they can add completely new features, like complete MP- and complete scenario-support together with a commercial extension-package.

BUT THEY CANNOT DO COMPLETE FROM-THE-GROUND-UP FRAMEWORK RE-DESIGNES OF THE GAME.

They simply cannot do that within the realms of future Civ-3 patch- and game-addon releases. Why isnt this pretty much bleeding obvious?
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Old December 7, 2001, 22:23   #18
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Ya know, I rest my case. Those that are what they are prove it for me so much more effortlessly. Thanks.

Fanboy, eh, how very amusing. But thanks for showing exactly what I stated.

P
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Old December 7, 2001, 22:48   #19
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Libertarian: Hey, buddy, you're the one who set the tone here, not me. And if I'm not mistaken, it was you who set the tone in the other thread too.

Regarding Firaxis at this point: it was a great relief to finally hear from Dan that they don't actually have any plans for scenario-making capabilities as of now. If they had just said that to begin with, alot of us would be alot less upset.
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Old December 7, 2001, 23:39   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
Libertarian: Hey, buddy, you're the one who set the tone here, not me. And if I'm not mistaken, it was you who set the tone in the other thread too.

Regarding Firaxis at this point: it was a great relief to finally hear from Dan that they don't actually have any plans for scenario-making capabilities as of now. If they had just said that to begin with, alot of us would be alot less upset.
For the record, Hoek, I didn't say we didn't have any plans. I said I couldn't tell you what our plans may or may not be until it's confirmed one way or the other.

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Old December 8, 2001, 00:13   #21
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Re: Wherefore the Anger?
Quote:
Originally posted by scientist
What is the source of all the harshly critical posts on these forums? Is the fault with Firaxis and Infogrames, or are too many of us overexpectant whining crybabies?

I was just wondering about the last Firaxis release, SMAC. Does anyone remember disappointment and anger at the publisher and developer being this virulent?

I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.

I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation. Also, Firaxis' and Infogrames' heavy-handed treatment of the enthusiast community has exacerbated the situation.

I am interested in others' perceptions.
My theory is that people feel let down from their original expectations. Whether they were too high to start with or Firaxis failed to meet them is why all the arguing is going on. The hype behind this game was so strong, and the series reputation so powerful, it was almost a given that a lot of people would be upset, no matter what came out.

The people that I always see complaining are the ones that had preset expectations/demands about what they'd get. The ones who are relatively happy seem satisfied to just go with the flow and focus on bug fixes.

It is suprising to see this much anger about a turn-based game though. I've seen more anger here then on MMPORG message boards which are usually the worst.
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Old December 8, 2001, 00:15   #22
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So when you said that you didn't know whether or not there was going to be some kind of upgrade to allow scenario making, you meant you weren't allowed to say one way or another? Do your higher-ups realize how confusing this all seems to us?
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Old December 8, 2001, 00:57   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ralf
The ONLY thing Firaxis can do at this stage, is minor gameplay & feature-related adjustments, and addons to the existing features (like more editor-options, for example). Later they can add completely new features, like complete MP- and complete scenario-support together with a commercial extension-package.
Yes, and I believe that most of us realize that pretty well. I don't think anyone actually still has hopes of getting for free half the stuff that was promised, and we discovered was missing when we forked over the cash. (E.g., an actual modder friendly game, not just a crippled simple edior that's really hardly any better than editing text files.) Nor that a patch will make it actually a new game -- as we mistakenly assumed it would be -- instead of an over-simplified remix of Civ 2 with some SMAC features. (And actually a step back from SMAC, at that.)

Yes, we realize that very well. Give people some credit here.

In some people's cases, that's the whole reason for feeling ripped off. In other cases, it's reason for hope that maybe at least a commercial expansion pack would make it what it should have been in the first place. Yet others will think "what else is new", and get on with their life. Or various other reactions.

But again, I don't think anyone actually missed the very obvious.
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Old December 8, 2001, 03:58   #24
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Why do people feel that Firaxis has cheated/insulted/conned them?

They make software.

There is no guarantee that you will like it.

If they make the changes that many people are whining about, I would like it less. I already own CivII. I have CTP2.

The guys at Firaxis made a game. They are selling it to people. If any of you had contracted them to make a game, you could complain. But instead they made a game the way they wanted to (more or less). And you take one look at it and say "Your game sucks", "You cheated me", "You made it wrong", and even "You guys are dumb", like a bunch of 4 year olds who dont like how the sand castle turned out.

I'll say it again: I am amazed that Dan still comes here. If I were him, I would have trouble dealing with everyone saying that the thing I made was somehow not done correctly simply because its not what they would have done.

And now, I will wait for everyone to call me hurtfull name like "Firaxis-apologist" and "Fanboy". But I guess thats what I get for respecting the time and energy real people spent making something they enjoyed. And they must really enjoy making CivIII, because they put up with a hell of a lot from whining 9 year olds (intellectually at least).
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Old December 8, 2001, 04:13   #25
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I won't call you a fanboy just 'horribly uninformed.'
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Old December 8, 2001, 04:27   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by yin26
I won't call you a fanboy just 'horribly uninformed.'
Oh very well yin, why is that?

You decided you hated the game before you even played it.

You are one of the most frustrating people here. You have the intelligence and passion to really improve the game (I like the game, but I haven't met a game that can't be improved), but you mostly just use your intelligence to post witty insults and complaints.

So what part of my opinion is "horribly uninformed"? Do you think that I will suddenly dislike the game when I finally get a spaceship and conquest win? Or perhaps I was tricked into thinking that the Firaxians hate the game as much as some people on this board?

Or do you mean that Firaxis actually does have a duty to see that you personally enjoy the game?

You know what, I find you horribly uninformed. You somehow believe that it would be possible for Firaxis to meet your impossible expectations.
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Old December 8, 2001, 04:54   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
So when you said that you didn't know whether or not there was going to be some kind of upgrade to allow scenario making, you meant you weren't allowed to say one way or another? Do your higher-ups realize how confusing this all seems to us?
Us? Speak for yourself.

You've been answered again and again. Each time, you've mined the penumbras for meaning that isn't there, hoping all the while to morph the answer into ammunition. Enough already.

You'd be surprised how many fans just play the game and don't hang out here (or at CivFanatics). You can stop pretending to represent a majority here. At least until a poll is taken to see how many are whiners and how many are fanboys.
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Old December 8, 2001, 05:03   #28
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gachnar: Read the past 6 months of threads here and get back to me. I won't waste time telling you just how misinformed you are. It would take me too long. For the record, I am not picking a fight with you. I don't even know you. But you have simply missed too much to come in here and make blanket statements about why some people are upset.
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Old December 8, 2001, 06:20   #29
techumseh
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


For the record, Hoek, I didn't say we didn't have any plans. I said I couldn't tell you what our plans may or may not be until it's confirmed one way or the other.

Dan
Well, that clears that up! No wonder it took so long to get a response to our open letter. No, wait....
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Old December 8, 2001, 06:27   #30
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