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Old May 20, 2000, 02:42   #61
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quote:

If I was in Hitler's position (no I do not support Nazism, but if I was trying to win the war) I would have conquered Europe, North Africa, and Great Britain.


Britain's gonna be a real *****. And while you do that, Stalin develops his position in the East and modernizes. You're never likely to have the confluence of good timing and the stunning idiocy of Stalin again.

quote:

Never declared war on US (That was a tragic mistake) and if Japan complained - to hell with them.


Again, I don't see that as a real failure. Do you really think the U.S. was going to stay out of the war? After Japan attacked, we adopted...a Europe first strategy. Trust me, Hitler declaration or not, the U.S. was going to war with Germany.

quote:

If he had waited until he secured Europe under German control - Yes, I do believe Russia would've been a pushover. Germany didn't attack when Russia was at it's weakest, just when they were gullible.


Russia never got weaker during the war. Only stronger. Once they recovered from the intial thrusts, it was only a matter of time.

quote:

Stalin wouldn't have done so much to prepare for war with Germany during the time he conquered Europe.


Stalin was preparing for Soviet expansion, be it in Germany or the middle east or Asia.

quote:

Hitler could have easily dooped the entire Russian government into believeing a joint control of Eurasia, and then taken over. That's just my view. He blew it, to many countries at war at one time, Germany was to small to handle it.


Well, you got that last part right. Too much to bite off.

quote:

Yes, I know Spain would have gladly let the US land and invade Germany, because they were scared to be "next". But the Pyrenees were fortified along with the Atlantic wall. Southern France was defended by a wall. It wasn't THE Atlantic Wall but it was similar, and usually the two are used together as "the Atlantic Wall". Western Italy meaning the little portion that touches France.[quote]

Once a second front was opened, the German position was critically exposed.

[quote]There were Axis ships in the mediterranian.


They are all still there, occassionally an anchor lands on one.

quote:

Russia is in a state of Anarchy, so I think we should give that to their credit when talking about Alcohol abuse. The children in Major cities like Moscow are at war with each other (It's the Pro-Nazis versus the rappers) And the government is being rebuilt from scratch (what a tole Communism played on Russia) But drinking in the US isn't even a simple drink anymore. People go to sporting events and brag about how many beers they drank. Highest I heard was at a Flyers hockey game - 22 8 oz Beers. (BTW: There's a posted limit of two per customer) That's 176 ounces of beer!!! His friend next to him drank 18. So between the two of them they drank 320 ounces. Wanna know what else - They both drove seperate cars home. I think drinking problems are found in both the US and Russia.


I don't drink. It tastes awful. Besides, I;m so much damn fun sober...

I recognize alcohol and it's effect here and in Russia. The whole thread of this relates to a quote where someone said "Not all Russians are drunks". No, but more of them are than in any other country in the world. I said it then, I'll say it now. It's a shame.

quote:

BTW: The spelling crack was just a joke, I figured it was a simple typo


I do it alot, I think faster than I type...although I have never dooped anyone...I did dupe them once...see above...

quote:

Ok, I think Dictatorhip, Monarchy and Communism should become less stable with time. Similar to real world (who supports Dictatorhips today? Cuba maybe, but they're "Communist")


Don't change them with time. The point isn't to make them fail like in real life, rather to add variety to the game. I really don't want to have a government that flushes itself down the toilet after 70 years...

quote:

What about fundamentalism? I say it shouldn't become stronger or weaker but I know there are many views on Fundamentalism.


Fewer free units, more corruption than now, but that's it.

Venger

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Old May 20, 2000, 09:48   #62
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Sorry double post
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Old May 20, 2000, 09:54   #63
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quote:

What if's are indeed somewaht irrelevant. But in the world of what if, realize that as soon as it was developed, the war was over.


Yes, only in the World of "what if" which does not belong to the realm of History.

quote:

Only was to neutralize was for Hitler to pursue Sea Lion, which had a rather low prospect of success.


Yes,low probability because of the success of operation "Dynamo"(Dunkirk evacuation) prior to operation "Sea Lion"(invasion of England) I will explain about it down there.

quote:

Frankly, whether he declared or not, Hitler was at war with the U.S. in late 1941. U.S. LendLease and other material aid was more important than troops at that early juncture. I don't consider this a real factor.


Do you think USA would send combat troops to Europe if Hitler did not declare a war on USA? Maintianing LendLease program and actually declaring a war on Germany would have quite different consequences. If there was LendLease alone, the pressure on Germany wouldn't be that hard considering daylight bombing of USAAF on the German industry.

quote:

Not sure what the long term impact really would have been had they pressed the attack on the BEF.


That survived bulk of BEF consisted main body of the island's defence which made heavy burden on planning "Sea Lion".(more invasion forces needed which meant more ships which Germany could not afford to get and bigger size convoy means less chance to get through RAF and Royal navy)

quote:

Agreed, Germany had numerous strokes of luck just to enjoy the early successes of Barbarossa.


True and the early success and luck made Hitler more insane and overconfident.

quote:

Not sure how important Moscow truly was. He wanted the oilfields


Moscow was the centre organ of Russia(all the communications are centralised to Moscow)
Guderian saw the importance of taking Moscow(he thought the earlier the better)but Hitler diverted Army group centre's panzer arms into Caucassus(yes he wanted the oilfields)and valuable some months were gone for Army group centre(it could not advance without panzer arms)when it received its panzer corps(exhausted)winter was already approaching and you know bulla bulla..... many military historians ask if Guderian's request was accepted, what would had happend? Many agree Russia would be paralysed and eventually collapsed.

quote:

The Germans developed very effective retreat and defense tactics


Yes the Hedgehog tactics!

quote:

Well, that's nationalized socialism for you. And for the complaints to interference, German military industry was fairly resourceful under Speer.


Sure if there was no Speer, Germany would be in even bigger trouble. Only his brilliant performance could offset Hitler's stupid interfence without any significant production penalty. There are many examples that Hitler ruined Germany's resource allocation. Germany desperately needed more fighters to intercept increasing number of Allied bombers day by day but Hitler ordered to build more bombers. While the German front line troops in Russia crying for getting more 88mmflaks Berlin was filled with these for AA defence. There were more than 48 separate institutes researching on so-called secret weapon under Hitler but not a single information was shared nor complemented.(what a waste of resource!)

quote:

Soviet sciense was advanced in some fields, yes.


Good, I needed that answer.

quote:

That's not the same as being more advanced. That's where I dispute...


Who would say USSR is more advanced than USA overall? nobody will! and are you disputing that? and your very original statement was this:

quote:

There is not a single field where
Soviet science was advanced


quote:

I think they are fairly concommitant


Yes fairly but not entirely.

quote:

Mir is not useless


Good! Venger that's way different from what you were saying from earlier posts. I'm satisfied on this now.

quote:

Soviets had not exported Flanker or Super Flanker aircraft to those nations at the time.


but if they were, I would bet my money on the Israelis not the Syrians.

Have a nice weekend Venger!

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Old May 20, 2000, 13:46   #64
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Yes, only in the World of "what if" which does not belong to the realm of History.


Aren't we doing that when we say "if Hitler had" and "if only Germany had"?

quote:

Do you think USA would send combat troops to Europe if Hitler did not declare a war on USA?


Absolutely. The United States knew the greater threat. Hitler could declare war or not, but sooner or later it was inevitable.

quote:

Maintianing LendLease program and actually declaring a war on Germany would have quite different consequences. If there was LendLease alone, the pressure on Germany wouldn't be that hard considering daylight bombing of USAAF on the German industry.


We'd "lend" the pilots. Wouldn't matter, the U.S. was going to war in 1942.

quote:

That survived bulk of BEF consisted main body of the island's defence which made heavy burden on planning "Sea Lion".(more invasion forces needed which meant more ships which Germany could not afford to get and bigger size convoy means less chance to get through RAF and Royal navy)


With or with the BEF, Germany had no hope of invading England successfully.

quote:

many military historians ask if Guderian's request was accepted, what would had happend? Many agree Russia would be paralysed and eventually collapsed.


Assuming a) it would collapse and b) they could have taken it anyways. Isn't this a what if?

quote:

Who would say USSR is more advanced than USA overall? nobody will! and are you disputing that? and your very original statement was this:

There is not a single field where
Soviet science was advanced


Indeed, I did not communicate that well at all. Soviet space program was advanced (the rocketry side), military science was advanced, etc. This of course is in relation to the entire world. In realtion to the U.S., I'd say there were, depending on the field, dramatic differences. But I concede your point, I worded it very poorly indicating Soviet scientific knowledge was on par with that of Ecuador, which is very very wrong.

quote:

Mir is not useless

Good! Venger that's way different from what you were saying from earlier posts. I'm satisfied on this now.


Hmmm...didn't seem to recall saying it was useless. A broken clock is right twice a day...but we've kind of come to a conclusion on that topic...

quote:

Soviets had not exported Flanker or Super Flanker aircraft to those nations at the time.

but if they were, I would bet my money on the Israelis not the Syrians.


I would too, pilot experience being extremely important. But...if you think the flight avionics on the Su-35 can match the F-15 I'd say no dice. Every system - fire control, radar, ECM, command and control, available weapons, are all advantage F-15.

quote:

Have a nice weekend Venger!


Thanks, you too, I'm trying to salvage Civfan's game he was losing (another thread, he emailed me his game)...

Venger

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Old May 22, 2000, 00:52   #65
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quote:

Aren't we doing that when we say "if Hitler had" and "if only Germany had"?


haha you are right and those(Hitler stuffs) too do not belong to the realm of History. But there is significant distinction between "what if" scenarios which are worth to be asked and the others which do not have such significance. For example, the case of "acceptance of Guderian's request" can bring much different historic consequences and this is like the decision making point of a decision tree(no other variables which affect this decision). However, to make "the Atomic bomb" decisive factor for WWII, there are too many variables have to be satisfied first.

The variables are:
1.as you mentioned before, the Eastern front has to be at the status of stalemate.
2.Allied offensives should have no significant impact on the War overall.
3.If there was no Atomic bomb there should be no way for the Allied to achieve total/decisive victory.

It is extremely difficult to create a situation for these variables satisfying at the same time.(I doubt even a single variable mentioned above has reasonable probability to actually happen) Compared to this enormous difficulty to set the mosaic of Atomic bomb case right,things like the Guderian case has rather simple factor that is Hitler's yes or no and these are quite decisive and there are no other variables have to be satisfied for this case which make the case worth to be asked.

and for the silly weapon debate, I know US made weapons have higher quality than those of Russian but your initial posts did not have any reasonable respect toward Russian weapons and treated them like sort of junk. The Russian did their their best and lost and I think they deserve some respect not just boo-boo. Anyway I too myself made some colourful statements and acted like a child. Sorry about that and good luck to your salvage attempts!


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Old May 22, 2000, 01:26   #66
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quote:

Originally posted by Tiberius on 05-19-2000 09:39 AM
Just because bullshits like this millions of people lived 50 years in misery, lie and hate (if lived). If you want to try it, then try it on yourself. Why don't you go and live a few years in North Korea?
Did you read George Orwell's "1984"? That was supposed to be our future, in the communists vision.

[This message has been edited by Tiberius (edited May 19, 2000).]


You have a great theoritical basis for your argument, Tiberius.

Show me one good argument that it shouldn't work. A few counter examples wouldn't do the trick. There are huge numbers of democracies that aren't working out as well. So why should I think that democracy is better?
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Old May 22, 2000, 01:33   #67
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Venger,

"If it cannot be implemented, doesn't that kinda mean it doesn't work?"

Hot fusion hasn't been implemented either, does it mean there is no such thing? Dispite the fact that this process is taking place in all the stars?

From a *** Laude graduate of the UT-Dallas school of Government and Politics, there is no such thing as "working in theory". Either it works, or it doesn't. Communism does not work. Can not work. Will not work.

Your alleged qualification doesn't impress me.

Please don't resort to this "Appeal to Authority" fallacy. If you want to make a assertion, please back it up with an argument.

"How hard can you try to make a pig fly?"

I see that rhetorical questions really make great rebuttals.
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Old May 22, 2000, 01:36   #68
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quote:

Originally posted by Venger on 05-20-2000 02:30 AM
Tiberius:

It's always interesting to listen to someone who has lived under a communist regime respond to what we may call communist apologists.

For some reason, academia and the college years create a caustic reaction in the minds of youth, leading to a blind romanticism for communist policy. It's interesting to see the neophytic vision challenged by real world experience, paid at a price too high for any of us to imagine. Your input is very valuable, as you've seen firsthand the effects of an utter absence of liberty and self determination.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is like a drug to some segments of American college-age youth, only the lessons of life can act as an antidote...

Venger
P.S. DAMN I'm screwing up my typing tonight...
[This message has been edited by Venger (edited May 20, 2000).]


There is a fallacy called "Sweeping Generalization."

The viewpoint of one person who allegedly used to live in a communist country can hardly be used to substantiate any general theory on government forms. I am sure you know that, given your education.

An interesting fact: in Russia, the Communist Party remains one of the most popular. This should give people some food for thoughts.
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Old May 22, 2000, 01:53   #69
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Youngsun, Venger

About your dispute about sovjet weaponry and science, I want do add just one idea: don't forget Russia is the biggest country of the world, with huge resources and a lot of talented people. If they really want to do something, they can do it, no matter what type of government they have. So the simple fact that some fields of sovjet science was well developed, is not because of communist science, but because of the russians ambition to be the world's biggest power.

quote:

there is no such thing as "working in theory". Either it works, or it doesn't. Communism does not work. Can not work. Will not work.
Well said. It's very, very true. Sad, but true.

quote:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
That's nothing wrong with this idea, just nobody figured it out how you can do this. The communists said they did it, but that was all a lie. In the name of a statement, they throwed this part of the world at least 50 years back in history. You must come here and see this wounded society to see how right I am saying this (unfortunately).

Hopefully, CIV3 will come out with a new type of goverment, which will make all our citizens happy, along with great economics, science, and all the others. Just don't call it communism!

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Old May 22, 2000, 02:29   #70
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quote:

Show me one good argument that it shouldn't work.

No, you show me HOW it could work. I gave you one counterexample because the others dissapeired. Vanished. Communism collapsed. And like a said before, if you want to try it, than try it on yourself, but not again on me, because I'm sick of communism.

quote:

There are huge numbers of democracies that aren't working out as well. So why should I think that democracy is better?

But at least there are several democracies that work. Tell me at least one country where communism works or worked. And I don't have to demonstrate to you the superiority of democracy, because milions of people did it when choused democracy instead of communism in 1989.
And who said democracy is the best goverment form? Unfortunately we don't know a better one (yet).

quote:

An interesting fact: in Russia, the Communist Party remains one of the most popular

And that is because ... Go on, tell me, I see you know it very well. Probably because of the great life they had it under communism, I presume.

quote:

You have a great theoritical basis for your argument, Tiberius.

I gave the example of George Orwell's book, because you have no idea how communism was. So, reading the book you can imagine it, at least. But if you like communism so much, please tell me, how do you imagine a communist country?
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Old May 22, 2000, 02:40   #71
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As a person who has lived in the Soviet Union and still maintain ties with my relatives who still live there I think I can provide several insights on the strenghs and weaknesses of Communist governments.

First of all Communism can derive greater scientific output then democratic countries due to the easy concentration of resources in one particular area. An example is the nuclear program in the Soviet Union. They developed the atomic bomb 4 years after the Americans (and with espionage to help them), but the hydrogen bomb came only 8 months after a similar detonation in the U.S.

Furthermore many of the statements that were made about the Russian technology are incorrect. The Mir space station has exceeded its limit by many years, lasted longer than anything that the Americans put in space and still continues to transmit scientific information.
The Syrian and Iraqi tanks that were destroyed by the Israelis and the Americans were the machines made at Vietnam war level and of course could not stand up to the new NATO technology. Despite its economic projects Russia still has a full fledged production of the T-90 tank (the most advanced tank in the world) and still has newer T models in the works. Also the Russian rocket cruiser "Peter the Great" stationed in St.Petersburg is the most advanced vessel of its class currently in operation.

However communists govermnets do have many weaknesses the main one of which should be its appaling inefficiency. Therefore I would propose the following model for the communist governments.

+10 % research rate (able to focus resources)
-30 % military production cost
no additional cost for unit prototypes (SMAC Spartan model)
-30 % tax revenue (widespread theft)
no luxury tax possible (government not people oriented)
10 % chance of defection for spies/diplomats
cities and units inside own territory immune to bribery

------------------
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Old May 22, 2000, 03:10   #72
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quote:

First of all Communism can derive greater scientific output then democratic countries due to the easy concentration of resources in one particular area.

I agree that communism can easily concentrate resources in one particular area, but overall cannot derive greater scientific output than democracies. Maybe when you choose coomunism as the goverment form, you must pick one domain in which you want greater scientific development. You will have bonus for that domain and penalties for the others. In the same way, the AI will pick the scientific domain accordingly to its personality (if it is aggresive, than it will have an increased military research, but penalties in other scientific domains).
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Old May 22, 2000, 18:48   #73
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quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 05-22-2000 01:33 AM
Venger,

"If it cannot be implemented, doesn't that kinda mean it doesn't work?"

Hot fusion hasn't been implemented either, does it mean there is no such thing?


It has been implemented. Just not by man.

quote:

Dispite the fact that this process is taking place in all the stars?


Has communism worked ANYWHERE?

quote:

From a *** Laude graduate of the UT-Dallas school of Government and Politics, there is no such thing as "working in theory". Either it works, or it doesn't. Communism does not work. Can not work. Will not work.

Your alleged qualification doesn't impress me.


As if your taking some class was impressive? Let's remember who offered their credentials here...

quote:

Please don't resort to this "Appeal to Authority" fallacy. If you want to make a assertion, please back it up with an argument.


Soviet Union
China
North Korea
Bulgaria
East Germany
Cuba
South Yemen
Mongolia
Poland
Romania
Albania
Czechoslovakia
Hungary

All communist countries which where communism either collapsed or is in such present disarray to establish those retaining the form of government as third world nations.

quote:

"How hard can you try to make a pig fly?"

I see that rhetorical questions really make great rebuttals.


But they make great posits? PLEASE! Examine your own rhetorical statements there Mr. Wright Brothers and light bulb.

Venger
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Old May 22, 2000, 18:59   #74
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quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 05-22-2000 01:36 AM
There is a fallacy called "Sweeping Generalization."


Oh look, someone found an Intro to Philospophy book from a college campus! Be prepared for "Poisoning the Well", "Occam's Razor" and other neophytic analysis. Life is more than what you learned last semester.

quote:

The viewpoint of one person who allegedly used to live in a communist country can hardly be used to substantiate any general theory on government forms.


Is he the only person you've ever met from a former communist country? His story mirrors every damn story from every ex-citizen of every ex-Communist country I've ever heard. Care to regale us with tales of wine and roses you've heard from former Communist citizens?

And is he not damn sure more qualified to testify on life in a communist country then either you or I?

quote:

I am sure you know that, given your education.


Hmmm...you bring alot of attention to that, despite being the one who originally brought academic achievement or experience to the fore.

quote:

An interesting fact: in Russia, the Communist Party remains one of the most popular. This should give people some food for thoughts.


An interesting fact: my dog like to eat cat **** out of the litter box. Does that make it a tasty treat? Only to the dog...

Let's do this. Get in power, bleed the country dry of it's gold reserves, destroy it's infrastructure and industrial heart, and make it a net importer of food. Then when it collapses, and there is no food, no money, no jobs, and no future, we can claim it's because we aren't in power anymore!

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Old May 22, 2000, 19:40   #75
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It seems I have a sort of in-between position in this discussion. And I think its a shame some people are to lazy to use independent statistics when handed on a plate.

quote:


All communist countries which were communist either collapsed or is in such present disarray to establish those retaining the form of government as third world nations.



Expectation of life at birth ~1900, ~1950, ~1980
West Eur: 47 / 67 / ??
Sweden: ?? / 71.5 / 76
Engl+Wal: ?? / 68.5 / 73
France: ?? / 66.5 / 74
United St: 48 / 68.5 / 74
Japan: ?? / 58 / 76
Russia: 32 / 64 / 69
Mexico: ?? / 49.5 / 65
Brazil: ?? / 54 / 59.5
China: ?? / 46 / 64
India: 23 / 41.5 / 45.5
Iran: ?? / 42.5 / 57.5
Nigeria: ?? / 34.5 / 47.5

These figures clearly show that while less prosperous than the 'first' world, a communist regime as a rule scores more points than a poor democracy like India. The current figures for Russia undoubtedly will be worse, but for China they have improved. And in 80 years life expectation in Russia has doubled. The current chaos in Russia is only partly caused by communism. It is also the result of desintegration of empire, anarchy and almost thousand years of arbitrary government. Since the subjection of Rus by the Vikings Russia has always been ruled as if it was a conquered nation -like a colony- which it actually was.
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Old May 22, 2000, 19:57   #76
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quote:

Originally posted by Napoleon I on 05-22-2000 02:40 AM
As a person who has lived in the Soviet Union and still maintain ties with my relatives who still live there I think I can provide several insights on the strenghs and weaknesses of Communist governments.


Were you a Soviet citizen? I am understandably curious...

quote:

First of all Communism can derive greater scientific output then democratic countries due to the easy concentration of resources in one particular area.


Ack hack cough...greater scientfic output? My God, what on earth could you possibly be referring to? Medicine, Computers, Agriculture, Manufacturing, what?

quote:

An example is the nuclear program in the Soviet Union. They developed the atomic bomb 4 years after the Americans (and with espionage to help them)


Damn near totally taken from espionage.

quote:

but the hydrogen bomb came only 8 months after a similar detonation in the U.S.


The H-Bomb was developed largely in house, without nearly the amount of stolen material. A good book on the subject is "Stalin and the Bomb".

quote:

Furthermore many of the statements that were made about the Russian technology are incorrect. The Mir space station has exceeded its limit by many years, lasted longer than anything that the Americans put in space and still continues to transmit scientific information.


That is incorrect. Pioneer 10 still transmits data, as do Voyager 1 and 2.

Wanna read the latest mission ops reports? Click me.

But it doesn't still provide scientfic data does it? Sure does comrade! Click me.

So that would be, how do we say, uh, WRONG there buddy...

quote:

Despite its economic projects Russia still has a full fledged production of the T-90 tank (the most advanced tank in the world) and still has newer T models in the works.


ACK HACK...based on what precisely? Look, I appreciate national pride too. The T-90 is a decent tank. But I've not see one person compare a M1A2 to a T-90 and come away thinking the T-90 ends up anything but aflame.

quote:

Also the Russian rocket cruiser "Peter the Great" stationed in St.Petersburg is the most advanced vessel of its class currently in operation.


The Kirov class I beleive is what you refer to. Large indeed. Advanced...well, I'd say the AEGIS system pretty much holds that distinction. Note the problems the Kirovs have had with propulsion - only two are in active service. And let's be honest, toe to toe, which do you bet on? USS Iowa or the Pyotr Velikiy?

quote:

However communists govermnets do have many weaknesses the main one of which should be its appaling inefficiency.


Indeed. The central planning and control which allows massive resource allocation and marshalling for single project successes (hydrogen bomb) are ridiculously inefficient viewed at the macro level.

quote:

Therefore I would propose the following model for the communist governments.

+10 % research rate (able to focus resources)
-30 % military production cost
no additional cost for unit prototypes (SMAC Spartan model)
-30 % tax revenue (widespread theft)
no luxury tax possible (government not people oriented)
10 % chance of defection for spies/diplomats
cities and units inside own territory immune to bribery



Some interesting things! I concur with the reduced military production costs. I wouldn't reduce the tax rate, the lack of the Rep/Dem trade arrow bonus does that. Interesting defection model too...

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Old May 22, 2000, 20:06   #77
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quote:

Originally posted by S. Kroeze on 05-22-2000 07:40 PM
These figures clearly show that while less prosperous than the 'first' world, a communist regime as a rule scores more points than a poor democracy like India.


Democracy? In name only! Like the German Democratic Republic.

And I'd suggest we view more than a single statistic. Just one is kinda hazy. Compare Mexico and Russia. LE is very close. I've seen the abject poverty at the US/Mexico border, that's third freaking world. But Mexico never produced an aircraft than flew Mach 2.7 either...

quote:

The current figures for Russia doubtedly will be worse, but for China they have improved. And in 80 years life expectation in Russia has doubled. The current chaos in Russia is only partly caused by communism. It is also the result of desintegration of empire, anarchy and almost thousand years of arbitrary government. Since the subjection of Rus by the Vikings Russia has always been ruled as if it was a conquered nation -like a colony- which it actually was.


The most overlooked point of Russian society is the utter lack at any point in history of any self determination in government. No concepts of individual liberty.

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Old May 23, 2000, 00:42   #78
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DAMN! There is so much great stuff here that I want to comment on!

But I have an important exam the day after tomorrow and I really need to study.

See you wednestay!
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Old May 23, 2000, 01:43   #79
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Venger:
Let me clear up several misconceptions that you might have about the communist government systems. Excuse me in advance for the abundance of technical details in my message but that is the only way that we can make this discussion argumentative. Now for the substance.

1. You wondered whether I was a Soviet citizen. I was born in the Soviet Union but I never got to be a citizen because I left the country when I was 12 years old.

2. I might have misworded my ideas a little bit when I was talking about the Mir space station. When I said that it has lasted longer than anything that the Americans put in space, I was reffering to objects of even similar complexity. You are absolutely right, Pioneer 10 and both Voyagers are still transmitting scientific data to us and will be for a long time. However let us take a look at the technical characteristics of these vessels compared to Mir. Pioneer 10 measures 9 1/2 by 9 feet, while the Voyagers are 43 feet long with the antennas fully extended. Meanwhile Mir measures at least 102 feet without the antennas and features at least 4 indemendent modules plus core module. For more information on the Mir space station check out this link:
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/mir.html

3. Now for your icredibly smug and equally ridiculous statement that "The T-90 is a decent tank. But I've not see one person compare a M1A2 to a T-90 and come away thinking the T-90 ends up anything but aflame."
It would behoove you well to keep in mind that T-90 features a stronger primary armament, similar machine gun, and greater cruising range than the M1A2. The T-90 also features a 12.7 mm anti-aircraft defence gun, and an additional anti-tank missile system (9M119 Refleks) that M1A2 has no trace of. The M1A2 does have a greater hp/ton ratio than the T-90 but the incresed cruising range and the fact that the T-90 is much lighter should fully equalize that factor. If you have any doubts about the information I provided above or wish to explore this matter further you can look at
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90/

for the T-90 and at
http://www.gdls.com/programs/m1a2.html

for the M1A2 Abrams.

P.S. Please do not incur from the comments that I made above that I am a supporter of a Communist regime. In fact I am consider it to be as inhuman as the Nazi regime in Germany and I know that it ruined the lives of several generations of my immediate ancestors. Nevertheless, I feel that it is imperative to understand the strenghs that that regime was able to marshall and to adapt them if possible into our society so that we do not make the same mistakes.

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Old May 23, 2000, 01:49   #80
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S.Kroeze:

I deeply respect your opinion and I usually agree with them as they are both logical and argumentative. However, your statement that "Since the subjection of Rus by the Vikings Russia has always been ruled as if it was a conquered nation -like a colony- which it actually was." is entirely incorrect and in fact obviously absurd to anyone who has studied Russian history in detail. I have and I could discuss the various reasons why it is not so but I don't really feel that this thread is the appropriate place to do so. Therefore if you are interested in this issue please let me know and leave an e-mail address where I could reach you with more information on this issue.

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Old May 23, 2000, 07:15   #81
Marcel I
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Just 2 cents of my part
In WW2 the communist system could gear up for war very quickly
The T34 was the best armor (reliable, firepower and armour) of its time. The Soviet Union kept this supremacy in tankbuilding for several years. The Russians were the first to apply the use of fully mechanised Guard divisions. They did surprise the Germans very much by adopting a more thorough blitzkrieg than the germans themselves.
In the korean war Migs 15 beat the crap out of anything western forces could throw at them until the development of the Supersabre.
In Vietnam US fighters were theoretically the most advanced. They got however one hell of a difficulty with sturdy Migs 21 (no gun in the f4).
So Venger the commies did produce SOME good things and the suggestions for a communist government to represent this (good MILITARY production and cheaper units) could reflect this.
In general I do agree with your and Tiberius’ description of the defficiency of a communist government After all I don’t play ‘em even in Civ2 
On the discussion on WW2. Germany did hit Russia in the most vulnerable year (’41) only a month too late (because of the balkan war). Hitler made a few decisive ‘mistakes’:
1 He underestimated the number of divisions the Soviets had and the enormous stretches of terrain he had to cover.
2 He diverted Guderians army to the south to assist in taking Kiev and seeing that the time was to short to get to Moscow to seize it before the winter refused to dig in and prepare for the next year . Maybe that extra month the balkan war cost him, prevented the Germans from victory.
3 He declared war on the US. If he hadn’t Roosevelt would have no choice than to adopt a “Japan First” strategy. It would at least have POSTPONED a war on 2 fronts for the Germans. Venger was right in saying that it would be inevitable though.
4 The Germans hadn’t planned for anything else than their Blitzkrieg. There were no successors for their early Panzers and airplanes ready for production. So when they ran into bad luck it cost them to much time to gear their production to weapons equivalent or superior to their opponents. Only under Speer they regained a production capacity up to the best they could. Luckily (for us) the war was lost by then for them.

As for Dunkirk: The surviving troops had saved hardly any equipment. In the months after Dunkirk the british coastguard would have been a doddle for the experienced German panzers and stormtroopers. They would however have suffered heavy casualties in getting to their destinations as proven by the interceptions by the Navy during Weserübung (invasion of Norway). The british navy would likely have been annihilated by Stuka’s however. That was one hell of a tactical bomber

As for the atomic bomb: It surely would have been dropped over Germany (Berlin first I hope). I don’t know if it would have been decisive though. Hitler was a madman, desperately trying to hold on to his power. Even the annihilation of Dresden didn’t convince the Germans to stop the war, so one or two nuclears wouldn’t IMHO have made that much difference unless he got killed in the attack. You must know there was just enough nuclear material to produce just a few bombs


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Old May 23, 2000, 13:17   #82
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*sighs*
I think I'm sticking to my thread from now on. I've been reading more in it, and it's just sad to see how bad have gotten things mixed up with Communism. It really does make me sad, and I don't believe it's worth my feelings to try to convince people who are so anti-learning. I am not talking about all of you, just a few people in particular who seem to be unwilling to believe that Communism is anything but evil.
'1984' certainly is NOT the goal of Communism. Communism is an opposite, wherein the people have the power, and worldwide peae and equality are promoted moreso than under any other system we know of today. Goodness, people, if you have never read ANYTHING from the source, then all you have read is propaganda.
However Civ3 comes out as a game, and however your anti-Communist ideas come out in this world, just please do remember that we're all people who want to be happy, and none of us knows everything.
Goodday and thank you. I'm sorry.
I won't try to change anyone's ideas, and I ask that if you respect my feelings, you would keep severely contrary posts off of my thread, which is the only one I will read from now on. Thank you. *hugs*



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Old May 23, 2000, 14:15   #83
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well using an SE system instead of a government system then you could have both types of communism

with authoritarian (maybe totalitarian) state government choice and socialist economics you could have your Soviet Union or the North Koreans...using democratic (maybe populist) state government choice and socialist economics you could have your marxist state...

this is just my observation but it seemed that Marx was afraid that massive amounts of wealth concentrated in the hands of the few would subvert the democratic process, and that wealth would defeat the ballot box...so in order to prevent this and use the wealth to help everybody he came up with his notions of communism

with the soviets instead of ruling from the bottom up (kinda like a massive grassroots movement) they ruled from the top down...instead of trying to make everyone have a happy life they tried to use the power of the people support one of the largest military machines ever

also with marxism even with everybody reaping rewards from participating in economic activity i think the loss of incentive would erode productivity over time and that unless highly productive manufactoring processes could be used to replace incentives for working harder that marxism would fail or would have to adapt and if it adapted then it would adapt to more capitalist system

with the soviet system the people never benefited ever...just the state

but those are only my opinions

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Old May 23, 2000, 19:13   #84
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Wow, my internet wasn't working for a day. I come back and lOOK how much I miss!! Ok well I wrote down what I wanted to say so I wouldn't forget it. So here it is...

quote:

Originally posted by Napoleon I on 05-22-2000 02:40 AM
+10 % research rate (able to focus resources)
-30 % military production cost
no additional cost for unit prototypes (SMAC Spartan model)
-30 % tax revenue (widespread theft)
no luxury tax possible (government not people oriented)
10 % chance of defection for spies/diplomats
cities and units inside own territory immune to bribery



What about resource production. Increase/Decrease/Same?

P.S. to the people who continue to discuss how Communism could/couldn't will/won't work. Take this point into consideration...

True communism has never, ever been implemented on the earth as a form of government. The reason is simple - human greed. All Communist governments are in essence SOCIALIST DICTATORSHIPS

True Communism (Marxism) requires no leader. Just a figurehead who has no power.
Stalin - Dictator
Castro - Dictator
Mao - Dictator

Cuba - Socialist Dictatorship
Former USSR (Stalin) - Socialist Dictatorship
China under Mao - Socialist Dictatorship (not I see it more as a Socialist Republic)

Same with Democracy, simply does not exist

US - Democratic Republic
Ancient Greece - Democratic Republic

Democracy = Every citizen gets one vote and votes on EVERY issue addressed by the state.
This obviously will not work.

There are two factors that determine what you can categorize your country as...

Economy and Government style
Socialism + Dictatorship = "Communism" (Stalinism)
Marxist Socialism + Anarchy = COMMUNISM

People have to be perfect, not one person can be Greedy or powerhappy. Everyone must accept there place in society and work exactly the same amount as everyone else in the society.

S. Kroze - Yes Communism is meant for the good of the people, but it never turns out that way. And my theory is - it never will...

That's the way I see it so really, your argument should be that Socialist Dictatorships are failures. Not that Communism doesn't work.

Sorry about that Philosophical tirade. I know I've brought this up in two other threds now, but I'm trying to reinforce it.

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Old May 23, 2000, 19:34   #85
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quote:

Originally posted by Napoleon I on 05-23-2000 01:43 AM
Venger:
Let me clear up several misconceptions that you might have about the communist government systems. Excuse me in advance for the abundance of technical details in my message but that is the only way that we can make this discussion argumentative. Now for the substance.


Apology not needed, detail always helps clarify the facts...

quote:

1. You wondered whether I was a Soviet citizen. I was born in the Soviet Union but I never got to be a citizen because I left the country when I was 12 years old.


Well, I'd say you were a citizen, maybe not under a legal term that is labeled "citizen" in the Soviet Union, but I'd say you'd have a feel for life there. Where did you live and what did your parents do?

quote:

2. I might have misworded my ideas a little bit when I was talking about the Mir space station. When I said that it has lasted longer than anything that the Americans put in space, I was reffering to objects of even similar complexity.


The shuttle is the most complex device ever placed into space. But, Mir and Columbia are very different beings. Mir holds longevity records for men in space and is a valuable piece of space exploration.

quote:

3. Now for your icredibly smug and equally ridiculous statement that "The T-90 is a decent tank. But I've not see one person compare a M1A2 to a T-90 and come away thinking the T-90 ends up anything but aflame."


Smug...mmm, maybe...

quote:

It would behoove you well to keep in mind that T-90 features a stronger primary armament


Stronger? 120mm vs. 125mm? And that's just looking at the barrel diameter. Compare US DU APFSDS rounds and their equivalent. And post-Gulf-war analysis showed US tanks outranging Iraqi T-72 by over 1000 meters.

quote:

, similar machine gun, and greater cruising range than the M1A2.


Not really pertinent really.

quote:

The T-90 also features a 12.7 mm anti-aircraft defence gun,


Might as well throw rocks at an A-10 or AH-64 with that. Why do Soviet/Russian designers insist on hanging weapons all over their equipment like Christmas ornaments?

quote:

and an additional anti-tank missile system (9M119 Refleks) that M1A2 has no trace of.


The AT missile likely would be effective against NATO light armor (Bradley), it wouldn't penetrate against a front line NATO tank (Challenger 2, M1A2).

quote:

The M1A2 does have a greater hp/ton ratio than the T-90 but the incresed cruising range and the fact that the T-90 is much lighter should fully equalize that factor.


In a situation where manueverability is key, high HP/weight ratio is key, especially in terrain that's not flat.

And I've been to army technology, it's a great site.

quote:

P.S. Please do not incur from the comments that I made above that I am a supporter of a Communist regime. In fact I am consider it to be as inhuman as the Nazi regime in Germany and I know that it ruined the lives of several generations of my immediate ancestors. Nevertheless, I feel that it is imperative to understand the strenghs that that regime was able to marshall and to adapt them if possible into our society so that we do not make the same mistakes.


Never thought that you were advocating it...

Venger

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Old May 23, 2000, 20:10   #86
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quote:

Originally posted by Marcel I on 05-23-2000 07:15 AM
Just 2 cents of my part
In WW2 the communist system could gear up for war very quickly
The T34 was the best armor (reliable, firepower and armour) of its time.


Sure enough, the only decent American tank of the war was the Pershing. They also developed some heavy hitting support fighters...those Tak's started whipping Nazi ass late in the war...

quote:

In Vietnam US fighters were theoretically the most advanced. They got however one hell of a difficulty with sturdy Migs 21 (no gun in the f4).


No gun and no leading edge slats!!

quote:

So Venger the commies did produce SOME good things and the suggestions for a communist government to represent this (good MILITARY production and cheaper units) could reflect this.


I suggest a 20% reduced cost for military unit production.

quote:

On the discussion on WW2. Germany did hit Russia in the most vulnerable year (’41) only a month too late (because of the balkan war). Hitler made a few decisive ‘mistakes’:
1 He underestimated the number of divisions the Soviets had and the enormous stretches of terrain he had to cover.


Damnably stupid, didn't they have a map?

quote:

2 He diverted Guderians army to the south to assist in taking Kiev and seeing that the time was to short to get to Moscow to seize it before the winter refused to dig in and prepare for the next year . Maybe that extra month the balkan war cost him, prevented the Germans from victory.


Who knows, the battle for Moscow was going to be ferocious, and there's no guarantee of a German victory.

quote:

3 He declared war on the US. If he hadn’t Roosevelt would have no choice than to adopt a “Japan First” strategy.


Disagree here. Roosevelt with LendLease had already committed to a Europe first strategy.

quote:

Luckily (for us) the war was lost by then for them.


Germany did what Japan did - attack countries he could never hope to out produce.

quote:

The british navy would likely have been annihilated by Stuka’s however. That was one hell of a tactical bomber


But operating within range of British fighters, it would have been easy prey. A landing in Britain would have been opposed by the RAF and British Navy. I see...a catastrophe.

quote:

As for the atomic bomb: It surely would have been dropped over Germany (Berlin first I hope). I don’t know if it would have been decisive though. Hitler was a madman, desperately trying to hold on to his power. Even the annihilation of Dresden didn’t convince the Germans to stop the war, so one or two nuclears wouldn’t IMHO have made that much difference unless he got killed in the attack. You must know there was just enough nuclear material to produce just a few bombs


If Hitler survived the first bomb. Hitler was always in awe of super-weapons. The third atomic weapon was to be dropped on Tokyo tentatively planned for August 22. More would follow. One atomic a week would do it...

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Old May 23, 2000, 20:31   #87
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quote:

Originally posted by PrinceOfWeasels on 05-23-2000 12:59 PM
*blinks*
Reading through this all more, I'm a little unsettled. As a Communist/Marxist myself, it's always frightening to see how badly it is misunderstood by most people.


It's most misunderstood by Communists and Marxists...

quote:

Communism is about giving power to the workers.


Why would you want to?

quote:

Naturally, production and morale would increase this way.


Why? What does the line worker know about economies of scale? How does morale improve when you remove economic self determination and the rewards for risk and added work?

quote:

Marxism is giving control to the people.


Marxism removes personal incentive and allows reduces us all to share in being the lowest common denominator.

quote:

There are many different types of Marxism and Communism now, but in its true and right form, there are not Bolsheviks taking power as they did, and as you seem to believe is an integral part of Communism. If Communism were to occur in the United States, I believe that it could be the true example, a finally correct implementation of Marx's ideas.


Marx never thought of his ideas in developing nations, rather in advanced industrial nations.

quote:

That's beside the point of a game, but because of my feelings for Communism, when I read these sort of things, you must understand how I feel somewhat unsettled.


When I read someone still buys Marxism in any form I feel somewhat unsettled.

quote:

In a game, I believe that, sadly, it won't sell right unless you give people -- like the people here who speak negatively about Communism -- the type of Communism they have been lead to believe. But if game developers are wanting to go more with the real way, are wanting to tell the true way, please do read Marx.


Everyone should read Marx, Hobbes, etc...

quote:

But, seeing as they are Capitalist anyway, to be making games in the first place.. fat chance, huh? ;P


They will do neither - they'll make it as balanced as they can to make it at least feel like running the Soviet Union without making it too weak or too powerful.

quote:

Oh well. 8)
Please do not take personal offense at my philosophical and political outlook. I am only trying to express my side and my beliefs, and I do understand this mgiht not've been the best place to do so. 8) Thank you. 8)


Hey, no problem, all points are welcome here...comrade...

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Old May 24, 2000, 00:23   #88
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This place is just buzzin with activity! I like it.

I haven't got time to read through all this and comment on it untill tomorrow. I do, however, have time to make another quotation:

"...America is as a large nation about to loose the overview of what is actually within the limit's of it's power, and what is beyond ... power tend to mistake itself with justice, and a large nation is paticularly acceptable to the thought of it's power being a sign of the good will of God, so it ascribes itself a certain responsibility for other nations - to make them richer and happyer and wiser, to recreate them in it's own glorious image. Power that is mistaken with being justice tend to being seen as omnipotence - and have one once seen oneself as having a mission, then a large nation will easily assume that it does not only have the means, but the obligation to do gods deed."

- J. William Fullbright, chairman of the Committee of foreign politics of the american Senate, "The arrogance of power", 1966.
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Old May 24, 2000, 00:36   #89
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Hello! 8)
Seeing as the topic of this postings go on very much with what I have been talking about in my thread, I would appreciate it if you would please read mine, which I believe are posted just above this one, unless the boards change depending on what dates they are updated. I also briefly touch upon comments put forth in this thread. 8)

Thank you! 8)



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Old May 24, 2000, 00:39   #90
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Hello! 8)
Seeing as the topic of this postings go on very much with what I have been talking about in my thread, I would appreciate it if you would please read mine, which I believe are posted just above this one, unless the boards change depending on what dates they are updated. I also briefly touch upon comments put forth in this thread. 8)

Thank you! 8)

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