The new WoW section

May 17, 2000, 22:56

Ok as some of you may know I am pushing for the wonder system to stay where it is as far as number of wonders. But it is clear that not a lot of people are happy with the current system of what a WoW does for your civ. So I decided to start a new thread.

First I decided to label each wonder with a category that represents what it should deal with in Civ 3 (all of these are open for comment and are in no way final).

Categories -
(Religious)Happiness, Political, Economic, Environment, Diplomatic, Units, Trade, Scientific, City

Pyramids - Happiness(Religion)
Colossus - Trade, Happiness(Religion)
Hanging Gardens - Happiness, City
Oracle - Political, Scientific
Great Library - Science(City)
Lighthouse - Naval
Great Wall - Units

Marco Polo's Embassy - Diplomatic, Science
Copernicus' Obeervatory - Science, Naval
Sun Tzu's War Academy - Units, City
Shakesphere's Theatre - Happiness
Magellan's Expedition - Naval
King Richard's Crusade - Units
Michelangelo's Chapel - Happiness

Leonardo's Workshop - Units, City
Eiffel Tower - Trade, Political
Adam Smith's Trading Company - Economic, Trade
Statue of Liberty - Happiness, Political
JS Bach's Cathedral - Happiness
Darwin's Voyage - Science
Issac Newton's College - Science

Women's Sufferage - Happiness, Political
United Nations - Political, Diplomatic
Apollo Program - Science
SETI Program - Science
Cure for Cancer - Science, Happiness
Manhattan Project - City, Units
Hoover Dam - Environmental, City

Ancient

Pyramids - Doubles effect of all temples

Colossus - Adds one trade arrow to every square in city radius, increases happiness by 1 per 5 citizens (+ 20% happiness in city)

Hanging Gardens - Makes all citizens content in city, counts as Granary in every city.

Oracle - Increases science rate by 25%. Civs you are currently in contact with increase 25pts (if using pt scale) happiness with your civ

Great Library - Counts as a library in all cities.

Lighthouse - Sea Units can not be lost at sea (I don't think Trieme's should be able to move off shore at all, but other units should have a chance of being lost at sea before Lighthouse), increase movement by 1.

Great Wall - Barbarians can not enter your borders. Double defense for units stationed in Fortresses.

Medivel

Marco Polo's Embassy - Gives an embassy with two random Civs. You recieve any knowledge possessed by these two civs.

Copernicus' Observatory - Doubles science output of city. Added movement for ships.

Sun Tzu's War Academy - All new units recieves veteran status (all units win battle recieve vet status) Free support for a unit?

Michelangelo's Chapel - Counts as cathedral in all cities

Shakesphere's Theatre - No unrest in city.

Magellan's Expedition - All ships with an explorer recieve +4 movement rate. Explorers recieve +1 walking (+3 because treats all squares as road)

King Richard's Crusade - Free support for Crusaders. Crusaders recieve +50% attack/defense

Industrial

Leonardo's Workshop - Creates a city improvement in all cities which upgrades units (e.g. dragoons to Calvary).

Eiffel Tower - One extra trade arrow in city. Other Civ's Citizens that are below a certain happiness with your civ are shifted to an above average likeness towards your civ.

Adam Smith's Trading Company (Wall St. instead? ~ Christantine) - Pays for all improvements that cost 1 gold (or unit) +50% luxury output. +1 Trade arrow in city.

Statue of Liberty - Under a Democracy/Republic + 1 happiness in every city. Allows switching of governments without unrest.

J.S. Bach's Cathedral - +2 happy people on every city within certain area of city.

Darwin's Voyage - Triples Science output of city. (IMHO the extra 2 advances made this WoW to powerful)

Issac Newton's College - Counts as University in all cities

Modern

Women's Sufferage - Counts as 2 extra happy person in every city. Other Civ's people shift view of you to "cordial" or Civ 3 equivalent

United Nations - Embassy with every Civ. Able to declare war as democracy at any time if Allied wtih a nation. Other Civs view of you increases

*Apollo Program - View of entire map. Counts as a research lab in every city. (No spaceship, we built Apollo in 60s and still no talk of spaceship. I felt this was inaccurate in civ2)

SETI Program - Triple's Science output of city (for all of you Area 51 supporters)

*Cure for Cancer - Double Science output of city, +1 happy citizen in every city.

Hoover Dam - Decreases pollution caused by factories and population by 50% in all cities.

Manhattan Project - counts as Nuke missle factory in every city (if that is in Civ 3). Gives you knowledge of Nuclear Warfare, gives other civs the right to research Nuclear Warfare. (someone suggested this, I'm not taking credit for it)

Future

NORAD - Allows vision of all air units

Human Genome Project - 0% Disease, 50% boost in city's science production

Space Elevator - Decrease in cost of Spaceship parts/or/increase in Spaceship speed.

Damn that was a lot of writing. Ok I'm dying to make changes to this and I'm sure you all have some. I just wanted to combine all of our ideas into one big thread. I'll check back and update tomorrow if any changes are suggested...

* Can be placed in the "future" epoch.

(5/22 - I updated this to show the suggestions for future epoch wonders...)
(Updated 5/23 to include space elevator)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 22, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 23, 2000).]

Napoleon I · May 17, 2000, 23:28

OrangeSfwr:

I don't really see why we should keep the number of wonders the same as in the previous versions. First of all, if we are going to expand the tech tree then it would make sence to expand the wonders also.

Besides, there is one more reason why I would support greatly enlarging the number of wonders. Under the current system, if a civilization gets really powerful early on then they could build all the wonders for themselves and never relinquish their lead. For example, before Italy was unified in the nineteenth century the Italian states were very weak compared to the other European states. Therefore, in game conditions Leonardo's Workshop would have been built by China or France and not by Italy. So I think that if we are trying to stay historical about things, I think that we should enlarge the number of wonders and make sure that the little guys always have something to work on and catch up.

Aside from that your wonder descriptions sound pretty reasonable. Thanks for all the typing that you had to do to bring that to us.

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Napoleon I

May 18, 2000, 16:15

Napoleon - I agree about the expanded Tech tree. But by adding more wonders we are dominating the production with Wonders and not on other things of importance. And just because there are more wonders doesn't mean that the most powerful nations can not build them all. I see it in the opposite way. The more wonders, the more powerful the larger, dominant civs become. Mostly because they can build wonders faster and cheaper than the little civs can.

My other gripe with new wonders is that we're comparing the Pyarmids(Big WoW) to something like The Wright Brother's first flight (no offense intended to whoever suggested that). I was upset that Women's Sufferage and Darwin's Voyage were so powerful in the game, but now I'm used to them. I don't see room for any other WoWs. I know a lot of people are against me.

But back to the topic...

For the current wonders, what should be added/changed/deleted from my list...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Christantine · May 18, 2000, 16:49

I don't understand??? : confused:

[This message has been edited by Christantine (edited May 18, 2000).]

Venger · May 18, 2000, 17:49

Orangewhatever: (what does the Sfwr stand for anyways?)

I appreciate your argument on the expansion of the wonder list leading to a game where everyone just produces wonders - good thinking in advance. Maybe we should keep the same number of major wonders, and introduce a like number of minor wonders. These wonders produce significant effects, but not on the scale of the Pyramids or Mike's Chapel, and cost half of major wonders.

For instance, to build aircraft, someone must research flight AND build the Wright Brothers Flight. No air units for anyone until one person builds it. Side effects for the builder would be a free air unit and 10% reduced build cost for aircraft until Stealth. What do you think?

Damn, I know I could build a kick ass Civ-style game in my spare time...if I had any...

Venger

May 18, 2000, 18:21

Christatine - I noticed that there were a lot of threads talking about Wonders recently so I decided to start a new thread...this one. I listed all changes to wonder's I feel are important for Civ3. Than I asked for comment...

Venger - I understand what you're saying about minor wonders. But it still results in an enormous amount of time spent building wonders. If we have 28 Major wonders and 16 minor ones (just an estimate, I assumed 4 for each epoch) than there will be 44 wonders that will be built by the end of the game. This requires production, time, and/or money (Gold). I don't think this is realistic.

In Civ 2, I almost always had a city working on a wonder, and I didn't like it. Plus the fact that other civs worked on wonders as well. I'm suggesting that something change about this. That's all.

I like your ideas for the wright brothers flight. But as a WoW (Or minor wonder) it makes production focus on Wonders when I don't think this is the point of Civ at all.

Furthermore, I like the idea of enabling techs. It makes perfect sense to me to have the first Civ to discover flight to recieve a message talking about the Wright Brothers and their first flight. Than you can add the things you spoke of. Why should you have to build something? That's my argument against your proposed "minor wonders". Another example would be the first people to Monotheism with Printing Press (or some relevant tech) would get a message about Gutenberg (sp) publishing the Bible (or other Holy Book. This is assuming religion is implemented in Civ 3)

I hope I have cleared a lot up.

I look forward to hearing more comments. Also, bring up ideas listed in other threads about Wonders. I created this thread in order to have a centerplace of WoW discussion.

P.S. Venger - "OrangeSfwr" is a long and irrelevant story so I'll spare you

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

May 19, 2000, 17:36

I wanted to transfer this idea here. Wanna know what everyone thinks. I'm sorta on the fence even though I suggested it.

~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~
I would replace Hoover Dam with "Three gorges dam" (Yangtze River - China, estimated completion 2014)

Going to be the largest manmade dam ever. Creates a giant resivior in mid china causing the relocation of over 2 million people. Anyone hear of this? I think this should replace Hoover Dam because Hoover Dam, although very important, is no where near as Ginormous as the Yangtze River Dam (Three Gorges Dam).

I think it should reduce factory/manufacturing polluition by half. (In real life, by 20% but that's not very good in the game)
~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~~

Christatine brought up the fact that it hasn't been built yet and may be a failure or may never be finished so maybe it shouldn't be in the game. She thinks we should stick to Hoover Dam because it is more well known to Americans.

I don't quite have an opinion yet, any thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

tniem · May 20, 2000, 23:16

Don't change it the Three Gorge Dam in China. It is not finished to this date and so it would have to be a future wonder (maybe there should be a few to go along with future tech). There is talk that the Dam may not even work when it is complete. While it may become the largest dam it is not here yet.

If there is going to be a change from Hoover to something, make it the Aswan High Dam. That is world famous, complete, and working.

May 21, 2000, 14:07

Ok I see the point now against the 3GD so I'm willing to let that idea go. But about keeping the wonders the same...

How about for NORAD, make it for the first person to develop radar. This enabling tech idea can really go places and reduce micromanagement a LOT.

I thought of another idea today about the list I made. Someone talked about how Leo's workshop is to powerful in the game. I see it more as a science booster in real life than a unit upgrade wonder. So how about givnig you a boost in science? Thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Christantine · May 21, 2000, 15:40

Constantine - Cons + Christopher-topher = Christantine

I am male, thank you.

Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

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I came, I saw, I conquered...my allies!!

May 21, 2000, 19:16

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
Constantine - Cons + Christopher-topher = Christantine

I am male, thank you.

Whoops, sorry about that. I assumed it was your name. I guess I made an "ass" out of "ume"

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

I do to, but as a bonus for first to discover radar (or similar tech) or as a wonder? I'm in favor of less wonders and more enabling techs so I think the it should be part of an enabling tech for radar.

quote:

Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM
BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

Difference: Your thread focuses on the Pax wonder, mine was not started to discuss that wonder. Plus, my starting post on this thread is about what changes I see in WoWs and states my feeling on the number of them. Where in your thread is this discusses in detail?

BTW: Still looking for more comments on that

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Father Beast · May 21, 2000, 21:54

The ideas for wonders always fascinate me. it must be a heck of a chore to try and balance them so that they're not so powerful for the cost.
I personally think there should be an age of wonders for the future age,which could begin with the Apollo program.
some wonders could be:
Apollo Program
Norad (good idea)
Space Elevator (my personal favorite)
First Man On The Moon (happiness, reputation)

Maybe others. I'm thinking that there would be 7 major wonders per age, making a total of 35.
on the subject of minor wonders. I ran across a good idea in THE LIST that hasn't received much talk was that there would be "mini wonders" which would be neccesary to each civilization, but could only be built once by each civ. That could be the basis for minor wonders.
Also, if there is a future age, I would like to see a third form of each of the "support" units, diplomat, caravan, settler. How about a technospy (I haven't thought of its abilities), trader (able to move across land and water alike to make its destination), and the terraformer, actually able to rearrange coastlines by raising seabeds to land, or lowering to create more seas.

May 21, 2000, 23:08

I neglected the set of wonders for the "future" epoch in my list. Maybe we should discuss this in detail as well. As for "first man on the moon" how does that bring happiness? I mean, real happiness like in the game, not just "oh wow, we landed on the moon". I agree it gives you a good reputation with space programs, but how does it change what other nations think of you? That's my problem with it.

Any thoughts on other "future wonders"? I have one (and yes I know it has been discussed)...also possible as a 'prize' for the first to discover a certain tech (can you tell I'm really pushing this enabling tech idea?)

World Wide Web

Puts an "internet" improvement in every city. (Internet improvement, in conjunction with library/university/research lab, multiplies science output by 200%)

Or

Triple science output of city

Thoughts on this?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Par4 · May 22, 2000, 00:51

Oh common the 3 gorge dam can't replace the Hoover. First of all we have to help Firaxis in the selling department a little, all the mindless Americans aren't going to be happy to see the hoover replaced with some half built chinese dam. Second if{when} china attacks Taiwan, if we don't have a vietnam esque war, that dam will be down in a heart beat.

tomahawk-------------------------dam
----------------------tomahawk---dam
---------------------------------no more dam

A wonder I want to see after advanced radar or something is NORAD. Common everyone knows this is a god send, it tracks everything that flies in space and everything that flys near the western hemisphere and europe. It could give complete coverage of air units so you could see incoming nukes tradjectories(if we can't manuver(sp) nukes in civ3) and evac that city if it doesn't have SDI or move a mobile SDI in. You could see 1 turn in advance just for gameplays sake. It could also give 1/2 price for satelites and space stuff and maybe a radar station in each city.

Evacing cities for nuke alert. All citizens move into the suburb cities or neighboring cities for the time before the nuke hits then return with the nuke having not destroyed the pop just the infastructure.

Mobile SDI big planes with lasers can intercept ICBM coming within there flight range.

Radar station upgrades air units range while in that city and AAA capabilities of that city.

Don't keep the same number of wonders, I want more just make em a little easier to get or put a limit on the amount per turn you can build. Maybe 5 but you could always buy a wonder then replace it next turn. But I have no problem always building wonders in a few of my cities.

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Napoleon I · May 22, 2000, 02:02

A good future wonder would be the DNA Genome Map, with effects of eliminating disease, increasing population growth and decreasing unhappiness for a certain number of turns.

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Napoleon I

May 22, 2000, 15:59

Definitely, there was lost of talk about the Human Genome project when I first came to Apolyton, haven't seen much of late. But yes, definitely a future wonder candidtate. I hear it's 95% complete

Should the Cure for Cancer be a future wonder or a modern epoch wonder? I know at least a few people didn't like it as a wonder in the game b/c it hasn't been discovered yet.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Par4 · May 22, 2000, 19:37

Cure for Cancer has to come before the Human Genome Project because the Human Genome Project will find cures for all dieseases and make real time genetically engineering a reality, the HGP will also find answers to many hotly debated questions like if homosexuality is a choice or a chromosone(sp) and if some people are born evil. Really interesting stuff, I'm glad my{parents} tax money is going to good things like this and not just deadbeats living on welfare. For anyone who doesn't know(if there are any here) the Human Genome Project is a project coordinated in the US{mainly} to map and catalog all the chromosones of the human body so we can find out why some are immune to AIDS and cancer and ebola then transplant those genes(made in a lab) into others and change the DNA code of babies(if parents want) to have the body create those chromosones, which could change skin color, hair, personality, everything about a human, ever wanted your children to be as smart as stephen hawking and a buff as arnold, you can do it with the HGP. Of course there are those who say there is some moral problem with this, well Pfffff to you too when you die of cancer thats your problem. But seriously I see no reason why the DNA code is so hotly guarded and taboo to change, anyone care to inform me? Maybe we'll get human cloning too

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Don't ask for golf tips
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Father Beast · May 22, 2000, 20:16

Allright, I love these future wonders.
If there is a future age, the Human Genome Project could act as a defense against germ warfare. Your soldiers would be immune to biological attacks since it would be assumed that they've all been innoculated.
First Man On The Moon was just off the top of my head. and yeah, it was just a "hey we made it" thing. I basically remember that at the time of the moon landing, people all over were celebrating and congratulating the americans. I remember ccounts of over in England, they hated the us because of that vietnam business, but forgot all about it in the hoopla of the moon landing. Obviously it's scope must be very limited. how about no unhappy citizens in any of your cities for five turns?
The World Wide Web. Wish I'd thought of that. How about it acts as an internet improvement in each of your cities AND allows other civs to build internet improvements. I've always hated the wonders which you worked hard to build, then gave you no special advantage.
Space elevator. I picture this as being VERY expensive, but recouping the cost within the first few turns after completion. admittedly, I haven't thought this through, just figured that space travel would be made vastly cheaper. How about it halves the cost of your AC ship parts, due to the vastly reduced cost of lifting them to orbit before launch.
about the 3G dam vs hoover: why not both? specifically named wonders should be specific to the civilization. I always wondered how the japs managed to kidnap Leonardo and make him build that shop! so Sun Tzu's academy built by the greeks would be Alexander the great's academy, the hoover dam would only be called HOOVER if it were built by the americans.
About Norad, instead of being able to see all air moves (imagine the map jumping around to all those places) how about counts as SDI for all land within your borders (if we have borders)

Par4 · May 22, 2000, 20:41

Man I thought up the WWW idea for internet just not the internet improvement in all cities, its in the new tech concept thread. No but seriously I don't really care. The idea about the internet upgrade is really good but this is starting to conflict with internet provider corporations I imagine from the corporation thread, of course there could be both and the corporation increases happiness or something, but how exactly does the internet increase science output, I see it more as a tool to increase production or something because your people become more innovative, please clarify.

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I use this email
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Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

May 23, 2000, 19:02

Basically I see it as a science improvement because it deals with knowledge and information. There was talk about having your Civ lose sciences during dark ages and if you don't maintain libraries and universities and such, so if this is implemented I would have it retain all of your civ's sciences. But I don't know if this will be in the game so I have it as a science booster.

Also, isn't "first man on the moon" the same as Apollo Program?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 23, 2000).]

Father Beast · May 24, 2000, 09:19

About the "Mini wonders" idea.
The Idea is that Mini wonders provide a neccesary bonus to each civ, but can only be built once by each civ.
We already have one in civ 2.
It's your palace, with its decrease of corruption effects.
I'm sure others are possible.
BTW, has anyone considered selling off their palace after becoming a democracy?
[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited May 24, 2000).]

May 24, 2000, 17:43

The palace can be built more than once, just only one city can house it. BTW: I never thought about selling the palce...how much Gold is it worth?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Father Beast · May 27, 2000, 05:44

About the www. I consider it a science boost because of the ability of diverse people to participate in research or development. a minor example which impressed me was when Firaxis asked for some suggestions here at apolyton and got 250 PAGES of SUMMARIES. get stuck on a problem? someone on the internet has good ideas, and probably several people.
I hadn't considered Apollo to be the same as the First Man On Moon, beause they're different effects. Apollo starts off the space race by putting a man (or maybe just a sattelite) in orbit, thus proving it can be done, and bringing back pictures in the process (reveal map). First man on moon would be a happiness thing.
I think the palace can be sold for 200.
Back to the WWW. I think that the internet improvement for cities increases science by getting their citizens involved in the internet. previously, they may have had good ideas, but not an effective way to voice them.

tniem · May 28, 2000, 00:41

Again, if civ specific names are used for wonders than there needs to be a Russian equivalent to the Apollo Program, especially if Apollo P is simply to show that satallites and space missions are possible. After all, the U.S.S.R. did get to space way before my home country.

May 28, 2000, 10:38

Vanishpoint came up with what I think is a great idea for the Statue of Liberty in another thread. I brought it here to be commented on.

quote:

how about modifying the statue of liberty's ability so that it draws people from all over the world to settle in your nation?

What do you think?
It makes sense for the Wonder and also deals with the migration issue.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Father Beast · May 28, 2000, 17:35

Orangesfwr, I am confused on the Statue Of Liberty's proposed function. Does it make sense for people to want to migrate to your civilization if you change to a fundamentalism? does this relate to a migration model that I haven't heard about? or would it just reduce the amount of food needed to grow? Would the need for the ability to change governments on the fly be outmoded by some other government model?
Explain please.

May 28, 2000, 17:44

Hnmmm, didn't think about how it would clash with Government/Religion (if it's in Civ 3). Maybe only as a Democracy it would work, but also have another function that way it wouldn't be a useless wonder for Republics or other forms of government? Any thoughts?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Hasdrubal · May 28, 2000, 21:39

The one change I would most like to see, is Civ III finally using the real, original seven wonders of the world.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

May 28, 2000, 21:51

I dunno, i thought that myself. But that would disclude (is that a word?) The Great Wall and Great Library. Plus, aren't some of them pretty much the same, just tombs of different leaders. I'd rather replace the statue of zeus with the GW.

BTW: I found an interesting fact about the Colossus...

"Let us first clear a misconception about the appearance of the Colossus. It has long been believed that the Colossus stood in front of the Mandraki harbor, one of many in the city of Rhodes, straddling its entrance. Given the height of the statue and the width of the harbor mouth, this picture is rather impossible than improbable. Moreover, the fallen Colossus would have blocked the harbor entrance. Recent studies suggest that it was erected either on the eastern promontory of the Mandraki harbor, or even further inland. Anyway, it did never straddle the harbor entrance."

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Az · May 29, 2000, 01:02

quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-28-2000 10:38 AM
Vanishpoint came up with what I think is a great idea for the Statue of Liberty in another thread. I brought it here to be commented on.

What do you think?
It makes sense for the Wonder and also deals with the migration issue.

hmmp I don't think that the statue was the thing that made all those ppl come to the US ..... I wonder what made a bigger influence , freedom of religion or some big piece of Bronze ( ohh did I say that ?!! ) . a very nice piece of bronze . a sculpture . but , making ppl migrate ? nop I don't think so . maybe it should boost tourism , or something ...

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