Worst Leader choice

Earendil · December 12, 2001, 22:49

I think that Cleopatra is the worst choice of a leader. She is a Greek not even an Egyptian. She is part of the Greek ruling class that was installed by Alexander the great. They ruled Egypt until the romans took over. What make Cleo popular was that she converted to their(the people of Egypt) religion. This is equal to have King Henry V ruler of France. Sure he did rule France but he was an English king that was an occupying ruler, just like Cleo. I cant believe they chose her don't they know anything about history. well that was a little out of order but it realy is a bad choice.

ntyatecafe · December 13, 2001, 15:47

Who would you suggest for Egypt? King Tut? Nefertiti? Or someone else (my knowledge of Egyptian history is pretty vague)

BanastreTa · December 13, 2001, 16:51

I think that Ramses the Great (Ramses II) would be the slam-dunk choice for egyptian leader. Great leader, monumental builder, and there is some evidence to suggest that he is the Biblical Pharaoh. Beyond that, the other best suggestions might be Khufu (Cheops), because his tomb is the Great Pyramid, or Tutankhamen, who was a mediocre leader at best, but is probably the best known pre-ptolemaic pharaoh to the general public.

Joan d'Arc, however, is my submission for the worst choice as a civ leader. Apparently, they tried to shoehorn in some younger women at the expense of historical accuracy...

BT

Panzer · December 14, 2001, 09:50

If you want a female Egyptian leader you should definitely have Hashepsut (sp?), who was better han Cleopatra anyway AND a native Egyptian.

And I agree that Jeanne d'Arc is the worst choice.

Ecowiz Returns · December 14, 2001, 10:05

Jeanne D'Arc is definetelly the Worse Choice for a Leader.

She would be a good French Heroe and lead an army, but she was never the ruler of France.

All other Leader's are former rulers. Among them, I agree, Cleapatra is a lousy choice too. But at least she was a ruler.

History Guy · December 15, 2001, 00:10

Ramses II or Tuthmosis the Conqueror were probably the two best choices, I think. But none of them were near half as pretty as Cleopatra.

Fresno · December 15, 2001, 15:12

Well, Caesar doesn't look like the real one, so i bet they could make a Ramses which will satisfy History Guy completely

Mongoloid Cow · December 15, 2001, 20:33

Hatshepsut was the first of only three women to ever rule Egypt alone (the other two being Arsinoe IV (for 30 minutes at most) and Cleopatra VII) but it would be ugly to have a woman with a beard! Ramesses II (the Great) would be the only other contender (after all he was the Egyptian ruler in Civ 1)

Vandle_Savage · December 16, 2001, 04:59

As far as historical accuracy goes, Joan is hands down the worst choice due to her not even being the leader of France.

I agree with Ramses being the better choice.

But what bugs me most of all is the fact Ole Abe is the American choice. Sure, he was a great man (unless you are confederate) and a great pres, but to me the obvious choice is George Washington. Or as was said in another thread, Richard Nixon, when accused of some wrongdoing in the game he could pop out, and shout "I am NOT a crook!"

Mongoloid Cow · December 16, 2001, 19:19

Richard Nixon

Agreed, Jeanne d'Arc is the worst choice for a leader.

Aeris · December 21, 2001, 19:59

I actually think Mao Zedong as a representative leader of China is mediocre at best. Yes, he totally revolutionized their economy, but in terms of China throughout history, I regretfully do not know as much as I should, but there are surely much better people and much greater rulers of China than Mao.

Vlad Antlerkov · December 22, 2001, 14:36

Agreed. Napoleon or de Gaulle would have been a much better leader-- though I admit, Jeanne d'Arc is better to look at

Though if military leaders could be leaders of civs in this game... why not make Patton the American leader?

It'd make for some interesting diplomacy sessions with the Germans...

DarkCloud · December 22, 2001, 21:04

Yes, Joan of Arc should never have been the French Leader

I vote Napoleon, he conquered most of Europe.
-
For the Egyptians- what about Neferteri or Ramses II... They should have 2 rulers nevertheless... One female and one male... This would clear most of the complaints about leaders!

Mongoloid Cow · December 22, 2001, 22:18

For Egyptian female leaders, here are the only contenders:

Nefertiti:
Nefertiti was the wife of Pharoah Akheton, the most hated Pharoah in Egypts history, and the mother of Tutankhamun and his sister-wife Ahkesemimut (I think) When Akheton moved Egypt's capital from Itjtawy or Thebes (Waset) to Akhenaten between Abydos (Abjedu) and Lycopolis (Sauty), he rejected her for a younger wife. She is only known for her many busts (the statue kind).

Hatshepsut:
Hatshepsut was the first woman to be Pharoah, because women were not allowed to rule back then. When her husband died and he had only one son, a 3 year-old, she announced herself regent. When he was 7, she took the throne for herself. She led conquests into Nubia and Sinai, and built many monuments, particularly obelisks, all over Egypt. Later she co-ruled with her son, but he soon killed her, took the throne for himself. He had most traces of her existance destroyed except for her huge, hidden tomb south of Dier el-Medina.

Cleopatra VII:
Cleopatra was the daughter of Ptolemy XII and Cleopatra V. She had other siblings, Ptolemy XIII, Ptolemy XIV, Cleopatra VI, Arsinoe IV, Berenice IV, and one cousin, Ptolemy XI. When her father died, her oldest brother (a 13 year-old) was forced to chose a sister to marry. Eventually a civil war ensued, and in the Alexandrian War, her sister Arsinoe IV was proclaimed Pharoah and Cleopatra VI was killed, but Cleopatra with help from Julius Ceasar was declared Pharoah, and had to marry her other brother Ptolemy XIV. She bore Ceasar a son, Ceasarion (Ptoelmy XIV) and ruled with him after having Ptolemy killed. She tried to help Octavian and Antony in their war against Brutus and Crassus (I'm not sure) but a storm held her up. Henceforth when Antony and Octavian won, Marc Antony travelled to Egypt to here why Cleopatra had not helped. He fell in love with her, and Cleopatra gave him a twins - Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene, and another son, Ptolemy Philadelphus. Octavian was outraged at this, and decalred war on Egypt, killed Ceasarion and Antony, and Cleopatra killed herself to avoid being a prisoner. Her children to Antony were raised by Octavian's sister Octavia, who already had 7 children to him.

dissent · December 23, 2001, 01:59

Joan is by far the most inappropriate leader, but there are many other Civs that had better alternatives, most notably the Persians. Cyrus the Great was without question the greatest Persian leader. I can understand (although not necessarily agree with) the other poor choices, but why Xerxes was chosen instead confounds me.

DarkCloud · December 23, 2001, 13:29

I think they chose Xerxes because Xerxes conquered more territory than Cyrus... I would have prefered Cyrus, however!

Fresno · December 24, 2001, 11:52

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I think they chose Xerxes because Xerxes conquered more territory than Cyrus... I would have prefered Cyrus, however!

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought Xerxes was the one who was defeated by Alexander. Or is that another one?

HolyWarrior · December 24, 2001, 20:36

Nah, Joan and Napoleon were military leaders, so they shouldn't be considered as ruler.
The best bet for France would've been Louis XIV.

And for the Greeks, wouldn't Alexander be better suited as a military hero? Pericles would make a great Greek leader.

Vlad Antlerkov · December 25, 2001, 22:31

Actually, Alexander defeated Darius III.

Xerxes was the one who got wiped by the Greeks, though Darius I started Persia's invasion of Greece.

Fresno · January 5, 2002, 10:50

Thanks, Vlad.

JamesJKirk · January 5, 2002, 15:16

Nobody's commented that Ghandi is India's leader while he never technically led the country, and I think he's the best choice.
I'm okay with Joan of Arc because she's a heroine to the French people, and correct me if I'm wrong, but most French people wouldn't have a problem either, although they, like me would probably have to prefer Napoleon, since he was a far more infamous choice. Although then France's trait would have to be switched to Militarist/Something to make more sense.

What bugs me though is that she's called "Joan d'Arc"! Stick to one language people!

I wouldn't call her Jeanne of Arc, and you wouldn't call Frederick the Great Frederick the Grosse or whatever

Fresno · January 5, 2002, 15:45

Gandhi technically never led India, but he did led the country in a moral way. You don't have to be a politician or a general to be a leader. So I agree with you: he is the best choice (so he is better as Indira Gandhi or Nehru).

Sava · January 12, 2002, 10:20

Joan of Arc is the worst leader choice in the game. Napoleon should have been France's leader.

I also think the American leader should have been FDR. He is hands down the best president the US ever had. He also was in power longer than anyone else. Although, I don't think Abe is a bad choice. George Washington would be a bad choice. He was only made the first president for two reasons 1. His reputation after the Revolution... 2. All the other so called founding fathers were too much involved in party politics. Another reason GW shouldn't be the American leader is that he didn't have a lasting impression on anything. In his farewell address, he advised against party politics (yeah that worked), he advised against class division (yeah that worked), and he advised against messing with other peoples business (cough Israel cough).

I think Civ 3 should have had a random leader system. With each revolution, the leader should change. For instance, Russia should be led by Stalin or Lenin when they become Commies. Also, their could be an entire list of leaders that could change certain Civ's traits. Hitler should be in the game. Yes, he was a very bad man, but come on, I'd like to kill him. Germany could be hostile to democracies as a fascist state ruled by Hitler, and then friendly to democracies as ruled by Schroeder.

This leads me to another alternative in war. Instead of just conquering a civ, maybe installing a government could be an option. That way, people under democratic govt's wouldn't get all pissed off when you go to war with a bunch of fascists. Then when the war ends, you grant them indepedence and install a certain form of govt. Maybe for Civ 4.

The Egypt situation is also bad. Ramses ][ should have been the leader.

Oerdin · January 15, 2002, 03:33

The worst choice for a General/war leader was definitely making William Wallace an ENGLISH(!?!) leader. Jesus, I can't even see the apologists making excuses for that one.

King of Rasslin · January 17, 2002, 01:15

King Tut for Eygpt, all the way. And Charlemagne for France, Napoleon would be like making Hitler for Germany.

Rosacrux · January 17, 2002, 06:07

Alright, Jean D'arc is not only a poor choice for France, but also a completely ridiculous one (a half-crazed peasant girl used by the upcoming French aristocracy and the church to gather support and then delivered to the English... well, whatever, very poor choice).

But, why bickering about Cleo? I mean, she is the most recognisible Egyptian (more on that later) figure, she was a quite succesful ruler if you take into account that her country was not really strong at time and facing the almighty Roman Empire, and she played politics game (mixed with sex in good proportions) to the point that she almost got away with it.

Agreed, she was Greek. But... check out todays Kings-Queens. How many of them are actually not native to the nation they rule. Sure, probably the Spanish royal family are considered Spaniards now, but they derive from Austrian/Danish ancestry. So do most "houses" of Europe.

And mind you, Cleo was the first of the Greek rulers of Egypt that took the time to learn Egyptian (yes, the first in 300 years of Ptolemaic rule that bothered to learn Egyptian!!!) and the first that adopted their subjects faith.

I think you are being harsh with Cleo. On one thing you have right though: She was a uuuuugly *****

johncmcleod · January 19, 2002, 02:00

The reason they have to do Joan d'Arc, Cleo, and Katharine is because girls would complain if they didn't have leaders in they game. Katharine for the Russians? Give me a break! Stalin was a terrible person and a tyrrant, but he should have been the Russian leader. Hitler probably should be the German leader, though Bismarck was a pretty good selection. Joan d'Arc was a great military leader and a great saint, but she never lead France. Napoleon was one of the greatest military leaders of all time, but he also didn't lead France. I definitely think Charles de Gaulle! (though I didn't agree with him pulling France out of NATO) Cleo shouldn't be one. How about Ramses II? And Ghandi never lead his country for very long, though he was a great man. And, it is kind of dumb the way some of the leaders act. I have been backstabbed by Ghandi a ton. Like Ghandi would gang up on someone. Come on. Well, that's my two cents. And if anyone disagrees, post your feelings. I love
debate.

John

Drake Tungsten · January 19, 2002, 03:42

Quote:

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Napoleon was one of the greatest military leaders of all time, but he also didn't lead France.

I've noticed a couple folks say that Napoleon didn't rule France and it just isn't true. Napoleon was definitely the leader of France for many years. That's what being an Emperor usually entails.

Fresno · January 24, 2002, 11:34

johncmcleod: I'm affraid you're focussing too much on the last century. Instead of Charles de Gaulle, I would want Louis XIV back. Instead of Hitler (Hitler a good leader?

) I think Frederick is fine.

It would be very boring to have only 20th century leaders.

Arrian · January 24, 2002, 16:18

My thoughts on the Civ leaders:

I agree about Joan - she should one of France's "great leaders." The overall leader should be either Louis or Napoleon.

China - well, tons of choices here, but I'd go with Chin Chir Yuan Di (I've seen that spelled many different ways, so I apologize if my version is wrong).

Russia - Peter the Great

Egypt - Ramses II

United States - I find it amusing that no one really considers Washington, our first president (myself included). Lincoln is fine, but you could argue for FDR.

Persian - I agree - Cyrus.

Greece - Well, think about it... Alex was a Macedonian, not a Greek. I might go with Solon. The problem is that the actual Greeks were fond of city-states, not empires, so finding one leader for them is hard. Hence, Alexander.

-Arrian