War Weariness Prob: Bug or real?

cocodrylo · December 15, 2001, 01:03

I am minding my own business in my democracy, when all of the sudden, the egyptians attack me. All of the sudden, all of my cities go into disorder! I thought that war weariness was only supposed to happen when your units enter their territory. I don't think I should get punished for someone elses declaration. Note this wasn't a problem in Civ II when your units didn't leave cities.

wapamingo · December 15, 2001, 02:32

The way War Weariness works is:

You cannot:

1. Stay with your own troop on enemy soil for more than 1 turn
2. Allow enemy troops to stay in your land for more than 1 turn

You can sustain democracy if:
1. You manage to destroy every single enemy unit in your territory without them staying more than 1 turn in your land
2. Do not make an offensive

I believe this is how it works..Hope it helps.

Moraelin · December 15, 2001, 05:57

You can also wage a war as a democracy if you make enough people happy, to compensate the war wearines. If you have a ton of cathedrals, plus police stations, maybe universal suffrage, and a lot of luxuries, then your people may not be unhappy with war after all. The problem happens more often when you keep your cities at the very limit of still not revolting in the first place. Then the first war that comes pushes them into open revolt. But even then, you can still keep them happy by jacking up luxury spending and making entertainers in those cities for a while.

Or you can always fall back to Monarchy or Communism when you're having a jolly good war. Especially for Religious civilizations it's extremely easy to switch governments at the drop of a hat.

Skanky Burns · December 15, 2001, 06:50

Were you getting luxuries from Egypt. Once war is declared, these trades stop which could be the reason for your instant upset population.

cocodrylo · December 15, 2001, 23:05

I guess it happened because they were in my territory for a while. They have those friggin knights (15-20!) and they would always retreat.

Venger · December 15, 2001, 23:17

I guess everyone thinks I'm just kidding about war weariness taking down an insanely popular govermnent -

I had access to ALL EIGHT LUXURIES.

I had ZERO cities in disorder.

I had 40% luxuries (and boosted it on reloads to test higher rates - no diff)

I had WLTPD in numerous cities.

I had the #1 Civ in approval rating.

And my Democracy still fell. This is not a function of unhappiness due to war weariness, this has to do with war weariness, period. The manual makes it clear this isn't a function of unhappiness, but of the weariness itself.

I bet it's simply a watermark of X where every citizen that is unhappy due to it for 1 turns adds to the numbers toward X. So a very large Civ at war will collapse far faster than a smaller one.

That sucks.

Venger

Jaybe · December 16, 2001, 00:31

I have had moderate-term wars (well, at least one) while under Democracy and had NO war weariness.

It was an offensive war, and it really puzzled me. My people were mostly all happy before the war began and any subsequent unhappiness was not from the war. I had 3-4 Luxuries and 10% Entertainment.

Babylonians, Regent, Large World

Dadeo · December 17, 2001, 14:32

War weariness is another one of the 'features' that was not very thought out before the code writers got to work. Defensive wars should never result in war weariness....makes no logical sense at all. This feature seems to reward short tactical strikes; but wait...the AI will not speak to you in these wars and will only negotiate peace if you have wiped out half his empire. The tactical option is therefore not on the table.

Makes you wonder how the designers come up with these features that seem to contradict each other.

bahoo · December 17, 2001, 15:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger
I guess everyone thinks I'm just kidding about war weariness taking down an insanely popular govermnent -

I had access to ALL EIGHT LUXURIES.

I had ZERO cities in disorder.

I had 40% luxuries (and boosted it on reloads to test higher rates - no diff)

I had WLTPD in numerous cities.

I had the #1 Civ in approval rating.

And my Democracy still fell. This is not a function of unhappiness due to war weariness, this has to do with war weariness, period. The manual makes it clear this isn't a function of unhappiness, but of the weariness itself.

I bet it's simply a watermark of X where every citizen that is unhappy due to it for 1 turns adds to the numbers toward X. So a very large Civ at war will collapse far faster than a smaller one.

That sucks.

Venger

I hear ya Venger.

I had the same problem. I was in a perpetual state of war for quite some time as a Democracy, but I kept everyone happy. Then up and one turn my government collapsed with no cities in disorder.

During the disorder I negotiated peace with everyone and became a Democracy again. A few turns later a mutual protection pact forced me into war again (I couldn't figure out how to cancel it), and bam, instant collapse. It was almost as if I had accumulated the max weariness for a Democracy and as long as I went to war, my government would instantly collapse, the fact that the old government had collapsed and a whole new government was in control didn't seem to matter. I spent the whole 20th century in almost a perpetual state of anarchy....

On a side note, what's the advantages of a Democracy over a Republic? Republic seems way superior in terms of going to war.

dainbramaged13 · December 17, 2001, 16:04

I hear none of you.

I was an extremely huge democracy, constantly fighting wars, and on about the tenth turn of a really big war, my biggest city finally went into disorder. I put an entertainer to work, and it was cured. A few turns later, som more cities disordered, bop bop bop and i ws on the road again with some entertainers.. its really not that bad

dac · December 17, 2001, 16:18

I've seen the same thing as Venger and bahoo have. When we say long war, we mean LONG war. I had been fighting the Greeks for 30 years (turns) or more. I had over 20 years of NO CITIES being unhappy. Nab some luxuries, crank up the percentage of commerce applied to happiness, and people are celebrating.

The problem seems to be that underneath, even if your cities are "happy", the citizens are getting war weary, and it is apparently a separate calculation. So, no warning, no meter, no hint of any kind that trouble is coming and boom, your Democracy falls.

I could stomach that if I had some kind of warning. I naively thought that because my populace was happy, I didn't have a problem.

Why was I fighting such a long war? The stupid Greeks kept stationing troops in my territory (ok , it had been theirs just a while ago) and I told them to leave. The declared war (not me) and after a razed a couple of cities (I couldn't hold them for culture reasons) they refused to talk to me. Every Turn. For 30 turns. I took 3 to 4 cities a turn. I sacked capitol after capitol. They refused to talk to me. So, since I couldn't make peace, I had to exterminate them. Just happens it took me too long and my government fell. I only missed by two turns, so, by the time the anarchy period was over, the Greeks were but an entry in the history books.

Cypselus · December 17, 2001, 17:45

I'm with Venger, too. Too many times, defensive or MPP wars have dragged my cities into disorder. No total anarchy yet, since at that point I just overthrow the government and switch to monarchy or communism, but even if you don't even set foot on the enemy's territory, you still suffer from it. It's maddening. And of course you can't fight long enough to force your opponent to parley without overthrowing your government. Lame lame lame.

cocodrylo · December 18, 2001, 20:49

My government finally fell, but it was after I started to get aggressive. I really think that defensive wars should not be penalized. Look at how patriotism works for wars. The US in WWII and WWI, especially since we were attacked. Vietnam was instigated mostly by us, and that is when people got mad.

Control Freak · December 18, 2001, 21:37

Perhaps I have been rather lucky as I have little difficulty waging wars while in Democracy. The key I believe is keeping the wars short (no more than 20 turns) and of course having a ton of luxuries. Also I have found that in the Forign Advisor screen that if his dialogue box indicates that the other civ has betrayed another civ then War Weariness is greatly reduced. Is this a type of just war?

simwiz2 · December 18, 2001, 22:47

the biggest problem with war weariness is that the other civ can hold your deomcracy hostage. they just dont talk to you, and your govt falls. happens all the time in rl too

fortunately the AI isnt smart enough to intentionaly kill your govt, but just think when MP comes out, someone in communism makes war, then watches as all the great democracies fall