For those that want a different, better Civ3

[XPav]

www.freeciv.org

That's right folks, if you want to be one of the people that makes the game that puts Civ3 to shame, go to the website, help them with the project, and show Firaxis and Infogrames the game that you wanted in the first place.

Its all open source, requires no monetary investment for tools, and gives you the unlimited freedom to make the game however you want.

[LaRusso]

isn't that phalanx killing tank in the corner?

[redstar1]

It should however be mentioned that Freeciv is primarily being developed for Unix and I have found the Windows version to be 'confusing' in some places to set up.

Anyone want to set up a 'Program your own Civ' group for a laugh and a bit of learning-game-programming-together?

Dave

[ACooper]

You've got to be kidding, right?

[redstar1]

What do you think?

Dave

[CapTVK]

Did someone say.....Freeciv?


I'm more or less the local Freeciv advocate here so if you have any question I'll try and answer as good as i can. Before you start experimenting with Freeciv I'll give you some quick tips:

First off, Freeciv can now be played without too much hassle. Just use Andreas Kamenade's native windows client. You can get it here:
http://home.t-online.de/home/akemnade/civhome.html

Second, there's one fundamental thing you should know about Freeciv: "The client-server model". Freeciv was designed with MP in so the server part of Freeciv is really that. The client is nothing more than a user interface to connect to the server, nothing more. In SP the Freeciv server will be running on your own pc, but you can also connect to other Freeciv servers on the internet. Check www.freeciv.org for details.

Third, Freeciv is open source, meaning people can look up the code and make improvements (bugfixes). You don't have to be a programmer to help out with Freeciv. Graphic artists, bughunters and manual/documentation volunteers are very welcome!


P.S
There's another open sourc(ish) windows clone of Civ called Civ Evolution. The graphics are very good and it plays like civ but the AI isn't finished yet. However, the AI modules are open source, so programmers can create their own AI routines!

Check out:

www.c-evo.org

[CapTVK]

To avoid confusion I'll refer you to the native windows client. It isn't finished yet but it works quite well nonetheless.


You can get it here:
http://home.t-online.de/home/akemnad...iv-win-cvs.zip


P.S
quickstart instructions

start the server
type: "set aifill 6" for six players (max is around 40 civs I believe)
start the client (you'll see a notice appear in the server)
type "start" in the server


There are far more options to choose, but I'll leave with that for the moment.


Keep on Civ'ing

[redstar1]

So the server and client are still noticably seperate then?

Are there any plans to integrate them within a single user interface to appear like other Windows programs?

Dave

[Mark_Everson]

Hi redstar1:

There are already a raft of "Program your own Civ" projects. Please check out the Alternative Civs Forum right here on Apolyton.

[pulls out soapbox, strides atop]
Please consider what is available in existing projects before you start a new project. There are few enough people really willing to work to make alterative civ games happen, so IMO its important they band together to work on relatively few projects to attain critical mass. That way some can actually become mature. The alternative is lots of projects that use up time and effort, and never even get to the stage of putting out a demo.
[gets off soapbox, looking somewhat sheepish]

There are projects going in each of several directions from the original Civilization in Alt Civs, including FreeCiv. Please check it out! I bet you can figure out which one I'm partial to...

-Mark

[rid102]

Mark, you make a good point, but...

1) A lot of people merely have ideas without the skills (or even ability) to back them up and turn them into something half-beta. I think this is the case for around 90%-95% of the people who post stuff along the lines of "I've got an idea! ". Fair enough, these people can contribute in other ways, but essentially it is just a pipe-dream for them, which leads onto point two...

2) No group of people is going to 100% agree on what should go into the "perfect" civ game, as everyone has their own ideas. E.g. you want Clash to be primarily simulation-oriented and I don't, so I don't want to work on it. (I'm not criticising Clash here, rather it's a case of horses for courses and simulation just doesn't interested me and I wouldn't feel as though I'm giving Clash what it deserves).

Many people have big, high-level ideas that are simply juxtaposed to others, so there is little you can do about it.

I had discussions with Steffen G (of Civ-Evo fame) a while back when I was considering working on civ-evo; basically it just came down to him saying "Well, this is the type of game I want" even though I disagreed with him (c-evo is a slight exception as there is the "Well, you can code AI" catch-all, but I'm not an AI coder... ). So, what is to be done? Of course, it's his game and so he has the ultimate decision, but I feel as though my ideas were wasted because of that.

And this is how people start coding their own "Civ" clones. Basically, because they think they can do it better than the others...

I think you are right in that people should look around, most certainly, and see if something catches their eye, but I don't think that people should be discouraged from starting their own projects if they don't find what they're looking for in Clash, FreeCiv, C-Evo et al (as ultimately, all of these appeal to a niche of a niche market anyway...).

[HalfLotus]

XPAV, Good luck with the project. And good luck pleasing everyone.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by redstar1
So the server and client are still noticably seperate then?

Are there any plans to integrate them within a single user interface to appear like other Windows programs?

Dave

The client-server model is fundamental to the design of Freeciv. If they were 'integrated' into one it would be far more difficult to change or improve the code. As for user interface, there are a few interfaces available for the server. But they mostly work under Linux. But I think you want to know about the interface used in the windows version...

I've playtested several versions of Freeciv under Linux (Suse) and windows (X-windows, GTK-version and native version). And I'm happy to say that the native windows will give you the best experience if you're used to windows as it employs the normal windows 'style' menus, checkboxes etc..


Mark,

Good point about concentrating your efforts. Far too many projects end up taking a nosedive right at the start. I've heard countless tales of people trying to create their own civ clone on their own instead of working together on an existing project. All that energy and effort...it could have been put to good use


As the current situation stands there are three major projects which are worthwhile:
[list=1][*]Freeciv (My personal choice)[*]Civ evolution[*]Clash of Civilizations (it's starting to to shape up well ) [/list=1]


So to anyone reading this, if you want to help or do something creative in your spare time. Please do, even seemingly trivial things will help.

Plus, you'll always have the satisfaction that you did something useful, no matter how small.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi rid102:

I don't think I disagree with anything you said!

I think you took me to be more strident on the subject than I really am... I really just want to make sure people who are serious look around a bit first.

On second thought, the only thing I disagree with you on is your implication that one should be 100% in agreement on a project before one works on it. That is a way to ensure virtually nothing gets finished unless one person is willing to stick with it for a decade. I hope most people will be happy in the 70-90% range!

BTW the 'simulation' aspects of Clash are fairly low on our list of priorities. Much more important are reducing micromanagement, and innovative things like our economics, government, and tech approaches. If you can suspend disbelief, try a demo every now and then. You might be pleasantly surprised!

Hey CapTVK:

Oh, and here I was hoping that Clash would be your first choice!

I have to agree with your rankings, and thanks for the mention. But keep an eye in the rear-view mirror, because we are coming up, er, not as quickly as we'd prefer...

Clash Demo 6 will be out in a day or two BTW

[Ka Shima]

To those who are coding a civ type game...
Please look at improving naval movement. I'd like to see ocean travel zone based, rather than grid/hex based. Up until the advent of aircraft moving at sea was the preferred choice for quickly navigating large distances. Even after the railroad was finished in the U.S. it was often more convenient or cheaper to take an ocean voyage from New York to San Francisco, than a transcontinental train ride.
I made another comment about this in a naval movement thread. If anyone's really interested in hearing my idea, I'd be more than happy to share it.

[Fayadi]

FreeCiv graphics need major reworking of graphics thats my idea!

[redstar1]

Originally posted by CapTVK


The client-server model is fundamental to the design of Freeciv. If they were 'integrated' into one it would be far more difficult to change or improve the code. As for user interface, there are a few interfaces available for the server. But they mostly work under Linux. But I think you want to know about the interface used in the windows version...

I've playtested several versions of Freeciv under Linux (Suse) and windows (X-windows, GTK-version and native version). And I'm happy to say that the native windows will give you the best experience if you're used to windows as it employs the normal windows 'style' menus, checkboxes etc..

I think you missed what i was trying to say....

Of course the client-server model i sfundamental to the design of Freeciv, thats the way Freeciv works. User Interface was perhaps the wrong term to use. The point I'm making is that in order to appeal to a wider community it will likely as not be necessary to integrate the interfaces for both client and server into one interface. So Jonny Public can click 'Start a new game', select the number of civs and away he goes without starting a separate server and client program himself.

In saying, I haven't played Freeciv for a while, on Windows or Linux. I'll maybe see what has changed in the meantime....


Mark:

Once upon a time I emailed (not sure if it was yourself) about helping out with CoC. I wasn't too keen on the Freeciv 'look' at the time. I never received a reply though I'm sure there could be any number of reasons for that. I'll have to check up on how things have been progressing.

Dave

[sophist]

Originally posted by rid102

2) No group of people is going to 100% agree on what should go into the "perfect" civ game, as everyone has their own ideas. E.g. you want Clash to be primarily simulation-oriented and I don't, so I don't want to work on it. (I'm not criticising Clash here, rather it's a case of horses for courses and simulation just doesn't interested me and I wouldn't feel as though I'm giving Clash what it deserves).

Disclaimer: I know nothing about these projects besides what's on the front pages of their websites

Well, if I were in charge of one of these projects and had an ample supply of labor, there would be two things to address this:

1) a clear and well-understood built-in scripting language. Something like Python or Guile that's easily integrated and relatively easy to get into for making small modifications to the ruleset and behavior. Probably Guile because it would make programming the AI easier and more powerful

2) An easy way to integrate different rulesets simultaneously. So when starting a game, there would be an option to choose between civ1 rules, civ2 rules, SMAC rules, and so forth. The hardest part (one of them) would be to code the initial capabilities into the game and then make the AI aware of how to use them. Then all you'd have to do is flip them on and off for the various different game types. And those would just be the standard distribution; presumably then people could work from those and distribute "Civ3 the way it should be!" rules or something like that. Yes, that's a fair amount of work to make the game do what you want, but as an open source project with limited (if any?) funding and manpower, the best they can do is meet people halfway.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi redstar1/Dave:

I pretty much always respond to the Clash email, but obviously sh*t happens... Sorry I missed you previously. Hopefully contact will work better this time!


Hi sophist, I expected fallacious reasoning out of you

(lest people think I'm trying to start a flame war, my comment is Solely based on sophist's nick)

Clash has had a lot of discussion on a scripting language, but it has stopped quite a while ago. It all comes back to resources. If you are not making the progress you'd like in coding the main game engine, there ain't much time left for scripting language stuff. We are committed to doing it eventually because of the Many advantages. But frankly Clash V1.0 will probably be without one.

On varying rulesets pretty much the same resource constraints apply. Rules variations where two types are coded to discern which way a project wants to go will probably remain. But the overhead to make a 'universal' game of the civ genre is too high, at least for Clash since its so different from the rest. As for an engine that could handle all the Civ/SMAC games, that just Might be achievable, but I doubt it'll happen just because of all the extra work needed.

Sorry to be such a downer, but that's just the world as I see it.