Civilization: cultures or nations?

[Beren]

There's a problem with assigning civilizations to cultures:
You might give the suggestion that the countries were cooperating.

Also: how are you going to put corruption problems if a civilization is actually ment to represent several countries who formed a single culture?

[Fresno]

Originally posted by dunk999


Why not? This is just a game, not some ultimate award for a civilization. Yay, the Greeks were included, that means they finally made it.

Don't you think there should be criteria to choose which civs to include and which not? I guess most people want to see civs which have some historic importance. The Zulus were important for only a short period.

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Beren
There's a problem with assigning civilizations to cultures:
You might give the suggestion that the countries were cooperating.

Also: how are you going to put corruption problems if a civilization is actually ment to represent several countries who formed a single culture?

That's my problem with this culture thing too.

[Big Fish]

The Germans are influenced by Catholic and Protestant views.

Just as a small note Catholic and Protestant are both Christian religions.

Don't you think there should be criteria to choose which civs to include and which not?

The way they chose who to include or who to not include was just what they felt like. They could have included any nation they wanted too.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Big Fish
The way they chose who to include or who to not include was just what they felt like. They could have included any nation they wanted too.

Right... Imagine they had chosen Liechtenstein, Monaco and Andorra instead of England, France and Russia...

[GeneralTacticus]

Right... Imagine they had chosen Liechtenstein, Monaco and Andorra instead of England, France and Russia...

They could have if they wanted to. Whether itm would have been a good idea is another matter.

[Beren]

Originally posted by Big Fish
The way they chose who to include or who to not include was just what they felt like. They could have included any nation they wanted too.

Of course they could, but they had to make sales, so they really couldn't sell a game which was about: Who will dominate the world: Liechtenstein, Monaco or San Marino.
They really had to include civs like Rome, Egypt, Russia, America, England and Germany

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Beren
Who will dominate the world: Liechtenstein, Monaco or San Marino.

Don't know, sounds not even that bad... But where is the Pope and his state?

[Beren]

Originally posted by Oligarf
Don't know, sounds not even that bad... But where is the Pope and his state?

Well he was once a major power.

[lorddread]

A main problem here is that the while the nation still exists, its culture doesn't. Examples of this are the Egyptians no longer believe in the old gods, nor do they build pyramids or statues. Yet their nation still exists. BTY The national boards of Egypt have NOT fundementally changed in the last 1000 years.

China has a really old HISTORY but a new culture. Its culture changed in the 1940's and 50's to something completely different from what it used to be. Is it a new country gamewise or old?

England formed in the dark ages into a nation. Before that the Romans and Pics owned it. While it has maintained its history and some of its culture, can anyone truly say it is the same as it was 300 years ago?

I have said it before and will say it again, Frixaxis needs to get rid of the idea of using real nations and have something like Alph Centauri. This would cure the problems it causes.

Just a thought


Let me know what you guys thing


Lord Dread
KATN

[lorddread]

Let me know what you guys think.

Got Fat Finger syndrome


LD

KATN

[tandeetaylor]

I think it's a hard question, especially in modern times. In ancient, I would say cultures, because there are cultures that exist in many nations, even today. But in modern times, look at the US. There are many cultures, would you say that America is not a civilization?

[Beren]

To save us all the trouble: I would go for nations. (Please remember, that nations means a group of people who feel their a unity, thanks to their common background in the following aspects: history, language and religion (not all are necessary))

[Oligarf]

LD: I don't think I can identify with such in CIV.

Beren: We even may say to a certain extent that the Pope is still powerful in South-America.

[Fresno]

Oligarf: The pope never leaded a culture; there often was a mighty emperor to counter-balance his power. That's why they fought several battles against each other.

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Fresno
Oligarf: The pope never leaded a culture; there often was a mighty emperor to counter-balance his power. That's why they fought several battles against each other.

Actually this is not correct. In 339 2 years after the Emperor Constatine's death, a letter was "found" from him granting the Roman Catholic Church absolute powers over itself. It took over 1000 years to show this document was a fraud, but by that time it was too late. It was the Middle Ages and the church held almost absolute power by this time. It would hold this power until the Protestant Reformation (Martin Luther et al)

[Ned]

Originally posted by lorddread


Actually this is not correct. In 339 2 years after the Emperor Constatine's death, a letter was "found" from him granting the Roman Catholic Church absolute powers over itself. It took over 1000 years to show this document was a fraud, but by that time it was too late. It was the Middle Ages and the church held almost absolute power by this time. It would hold this power until the Protestant Reformation (Martin Luther et al)

Lord Dread, I believe the current thinking on the "Donation of Constantine" was that it was forged in the mid 700's to justify ("legalize") the Pope's appointment of Pepin as King of the Franks.

What it not a forgery though is that the Pope Leo the Great was made the Roman Pontifex Maximus by Valentinian III and the Senate in 445. The Pope's official title still 'til this day is Supreme Pontiff. In his official capacity as Pontifex Maximus, the Pope probably does have the power to appoint kings and emperors. The last time this was done was when the pope appointed Napoleon emperor.

Had Germany won WWII, Hitler probably would have sought the blessing of the Pope to confirm his legal right to rule Europe. I don't know what the Pope would have done in face of such a request, but past precedent (Pepin (only King), Charlemagne, Otto and Napoleon) indicates that he may just have appointed him Emperor.

Ned

[dervish]

To be honest I don't know the answer to this question. But, hey!!! Who cares??? (I edited to put it mildly - that cultures, nations and civilizations are so intertwined)

[Oligarf]

I do think there is some difference, a nation is not the same as an culture and otherwise. So where a civilization stands is an interesting question.

[lorddread]

Oligarph, I am not sure of the Latin phrase you have in your footer. "Pecunia non olet" He smells not of her money? Pecunia is female version of money. non is not and olet is he smells. Is it supposed to be "he smells not of money"?

If this is indeed the translation then I believe it should not be attributed to Vespasian. He gave a huge gift of 400,000 sesterces to a woman because she lusted after him. He was quite vain for a man who was 60 years old when he took the throne. Though he did tax public urinals.

[Oligarf]

'Money doesn't stink'
Yes, Vespasianus is behind that one.
http://www.xrefer.com/entry/249757

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Oligarf
'Money doesn't stink'
Yes, Vespasianus is behind that one.
http://www.xrefer.com/entry/249757

Is this in reference to what he said to his son, when he complained about the emperor taxing of the toilets?

[Oligarf]

Can't quite remember, choose him because I have Latin at school and liked the Dutch version. I knew it in Dutch before I even knew it was Latin.

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Oligarf
Can't quite remember, choose him because I have Latin at school and liked the Dutch version. I knew it in Dutch before I even knew it was Latin.

About 3 years ago I began to collect Roman Imperial coins. I have expanded that into Roman Republic. The earliest coins I have are from 121 BC. A pair of silver denari (although they weren't called denari back then). That got me interested in the Roman empire and the emperors.

Here's a bit of trivia for you. Did you know that the average reign of a Roman Emperor (not Byzatine) was only 3 years. OVer half were killed by the praetorian guard (emperial guard).

[Oligarf]

Good work, good to see someone interested in Rome. I suppose such coins aren't that cheap. And no, I didn't know that about that reign period, I'll try to remember it though. But it is purely about the Emperors, no Consuls or so?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


We have lots of other names for Germans. Normally used in a derogatory sense though.

[GeneralTacticus]

Originally posted by Oligarf
I'll try to remember it though. But it is purely about the Emperors, no Consuls or so?

Yes, the Consuls were only allowed to rule for one year each before leaving office.

[lorddread]

I think with the exception of Domitian (81-96) the period from 69 AD when Vespasian was crowned till 180 when Commodus when cowned was the high point of the empire. Even Pertinax who came after Commodus was a good emperor (although he reigned for less than a year). Immediately following Septimius Severus came Caracalla and Geta which began the decline of the Roman Empire. This decline would be halted by great emperors to come, such Aurelian (270-275), Constatine (307-337), but never rise to its former glory.

[Ned]

Actually, the Empire seemed to reach a high point under Severus. He conquered the ME and extended Rome's borders to their maximum extent.

The problem with Severus was he took power by force of arms and left the empire to his sons. If you look at Rome's history, there is not one example of a son of an emperor doing well. Mostly the sons were self-indulgent tyrants that were themselves eventually assassinated.

[lorddread]

The sad fact is that most emperors were assassinated, usually by men they trusted, secretaries, preatorian guards, even their own soldiers. Very few died of natural causes.