ULTRA basic (yet effective) industrial war strategy

[MrWhereItsAt]

Now here's a strat that has worked wonders for me.

I have found that cavalry are next to shite when facing cities with riflemen in them. Hunh! So much for "is cavalry overpowered"!

I drew my first war against the French this way. The second war I tried with a large number of artillery stationed with infantry. Rarely if ever was anyhting of mine killed and the artillery took but a few turns to fully soften up the cities' defense enough (1 HP) for the cavalry to have a chance at killing them.

Probably intuitive and obvious to all, but I just wanted to post my support for just how damn effective such a real life (kinda) sort of siege warfare solution is.

And thanks to that - "We'll always have Paris" "Yes, Paris"
(Ok bad misquote, but, there you go. First Monday back at work.)

[Alexander's Horse]

In the industrial age, I use large stacks of artillery protected by infantry to soften up cities and then attack with cavalry when all the defenders are in the red. This approach also has the advantage of reducing population to manageable levels before conquest, though I tend to raze cities rather than take them.

[Skeletal Dragon]

Riflemen aren't much of a problem early on in the industrial age; they can still be taken out quite easily when they're inside a size 12 city. When Infantry comes along, then Cavalry rushes don't work anymore since Infantry have a defense of 10 and easily gains extra defense inside 6+ cities. (50% for size 6 and 100% for metro size i believe) In those times, you usually use artillery or airplanes to take down the city size so you can actually get a few hits in.

One interesting thing to note: Marines have an attack of 7 or 8 (pretty sure its 8, but i could be wrong), which is -higher- than Cavalry. Infantry ties Cavalry with an attack of 6. Of course, they both lack movement, but they have a higher defense. However, Marines needs a dead end tech and is right next to Motorized Transportation, so Tanks usually overshadow marines. (That is, if you already Atomic Theory -> Electronics).

[Aeson]

With the way the tech tree is, Military tradition can be researched only 7 advances into the Middle ages (usually will be 9 though, as its best to get Knights with the 2 extra early advances). This is why they are overpowered, as Riflemen take all 15 Middle age advances (if I remember correctly, Free Artistry, Democracy, Printing Press, Music Theory, Economics, Navigation, Military Tradition are the non-required ones), plus Nationalism. That means if you head straight for Military tradition, you have at least 24 to 32 turns (6 or 8 techs times 4 turns per tech, assuming a scientific opponent who gets Nationalism free) of rampaging Calvary with nothing that can hope to stop them. Very often this is enough time to make sure the AI never has a chance to get to Nationalism. That is why Calvary are overpowered.

I do agree that Riflemen, in the hands of a competent military leader (certainly not the AI), and supported by Calvary and bombardment units, are a good defense vs. Calvary. Too often the AI will only use conscript Riflemen for defense, conscript Riflemen get beaten quite easily by elite Calvary. They only seem to build the Riflemen after their Spearmen/Pikemen/Musketmen are killed in any given city anyways though. Why they don't upgrade is beyond me. Or rather, why the AI will give away all its gold in per turn gold agreements so that it cant upgrade.

[Didymus]

Originally posted by Aeson
With the way the tech tree is, Military tradition can be researched only 7 advances into the Middle ages (usually will be 9 though, as its best to get Knights with the 2 extra early advances). This is why they are overpowered, as Riflemen take all 15 Middle age advances (if I remember correctly, Free Artistry, Democracy, Printing Press, Music Theory, Economics, Navigation, Military Tradition are the non-required ones), plus Nationalism.

I think Economics is required. In any case, I always beeline to it, hoping to snag Smith's.

If you think cavalry are overpowered, just reduce their movement to 2. I think their power is in their 3 movement, at least as much so as their 6 attack.

It would help if the AI upgraded, I agree.

[chiren]

what difficulty-play are you talking about ?

[Skeletal Dragon]

Originally posted by Aeson
With the way the tech tree is, Military tradition can be researched only 7 advances into the Middle ages (usually will be 9 though, as its best to get Knights with the 2 extra early advances). This is why they are overpowered, as Riflemen take all 15 Middle age advances (if I remember correctly, Free Artistry, Democracy, Printing Press, Music Theory, Economics, Navigation, Military Tradition are the non-required ones), plus Nationalism. That means if you head straight for Military tradition, you have at least 24 to 32 turns (6 or 8 techs times 4 turns per tech, assuming a scientific opponent who gets Nationalism free) of rampaging Calvary with nothing that can hope to stop them. Very often this is enough time to make sure the AI never has a chance to get to Nationalism. That is why Calvary are overpowered.

I do agree that Riflemen, in the hands of a competent military leader (certainly not the AI), and supported by Calvary and bombardment units, are a good defense vs. Calvary. Too often the AI will only use conscript Riflemen for defense, conscript Riflemen get beaten quite easily by elite Calvary. They only seem to build the Riflemen after their Spearmen/Pikemen/Musketmen are killed in any given city anyways though. Why they don't upgrade is beyond me. Or rather, why the AI will give away all its gold in per turn gold agreements so that it cant upgrade.

Actually, I disagree with the statement that Cavalry are overpowered because it takes less tech. Any smart player would go the Education->Banking->Democracy route first because it allows faster research and is near Astronomy and Navigation (which is crucial for trade). Going to the Invention->Cavalry route first is less favorable because research would take so much more time and your core cities won't be as developed as they would be in Democracy. And besides, without factories that are obtained in the Industrial age, you won't be able to produce a sizeable cavalry army since they take so much shields to produce. And by the time you do produce a few cavalry, they'll have caught up already. So either way, by the time you have a cavalry army, you would be in the Industrial age anyways!

And cavalry isn't overpowering at all; its the general war concept of concentrating all of your offenses on a specific point of a person's defenses, eventually overwhelming them. All of your offense against a small portion of their defenses. You win.

[Aeson]

When talking about the power of Calvary, of course they aren't overpowered if you aren't going to use them (peaceful buildup). My point is that you can beat the AI before they get Nationalism, which introduces the first real defense against Calvary. Switching to Democracy is akin to saying "so endeth the conquest" anyways, and further military action is going to be limited.

To say any smart player would go for democracy first isn't taking more than one game scenario into account. In a peaceful game, it often is the best approach, though there isnt enough of a boost in efficiency in Democracy over Republic in many cases for non-religious Civs to make the switch. In peaceful games I'm often already researching techs in 4 turns, and have more gold than I really need by that point anyways. Add in the large number of Knights playing defense (from earlier horsemen), and upgrading makes world conquest just a matter of a few turns in many cases. It doesn't mean I have to, just that I can. If/When multiplayer comes out (rumored to be in the expansion), anyone waiting for calvary (if games actually ever get that far) will lose in multiplayer.

From a production standpoint, I very rarely build any Calvary. It's all done by upgrading. Assuming military equality the turn before Military Tradition is aquired, imagine the imbalance the next turn as one side upgrades 50 - 100 Horsemen to Calvary, while the other just switched to a government that will collapse eventually in extended warfare. Remember, because of beelining, no one has Knights yet in this scenario. It is your Pikemen, Swordsmen, and Horsemen against their Calvary and Musketmen.

Democracy takes 6 advances (one which could be free for scientific Civs), and a period of anarchy of 1 to 8 turns. Going for Democracy will mean that there will be 21-32 turns of Calvary before they can be matched with your own. Also, for 12-24 turns you won't even have Gunpowder, and if the Calvary haven't taken out your saltpeter supplies by the time you can see it, they weren't used right. Meaning you never will have Calvary or Musketmen unless they let you.

Concentration of forces is all well and good, but with Calvary against Pikemen, it isn't needed. Even against Musketmen, Calvary are very effective in small numbers. Thats why Calvary coming so long before Riflemen is the main factor in their power. Even with a reduced movement rate (6.3.2 for example), they will have the highest attack rating of any unit available, and their defense is good enough that most available attackers (other than Knights and Immortals which would be 4a vs 3d) will be at a disadvantage. With Calvary being able to retreat, only Knights have a real chance of killing them in any circumstances. In many cases this means Calvary aren't only the best offensive units, but the best defensive units (with the Knight) as well.

The higher the difficulty level, the more important military conquest becomes. You can get away with playing Civ2 research on Cheiftain, Warlord, and sometimes Regent, but try a Deity game without military conquest...

[Nakar Gabab]

One strategy I had considered... Cavalry is nice because it moves rather quickly, but given how quickly one can get to replacable parts in the early Industrial age, to say nothing of nationalism, I thought a different war paradigm might work. The basic idea is to shoot for replacable parts ASAP, then use a combined force of infantry and artillery (and ONLY those two - maybe with a few surviving cavalry from earlier wars) to inch across an opponent's empire. By fortifying every turn (and yes, you can fortify a unit after it moves if you select it with a right-click or use the Military Advisor), you create a wall of infantry, their 10 defense (15 if you count the 50% fortification bonus - and you should) capable of weathering countless assaults. The artillery opens up on targets while the army itself conducts a scorched earth advance, settlers streaming behind with workers in tow to resettle the cleared-away land. Best of all, you can do this much faster than you think - by drafting. Yeah, they have 2hp, but since nothing can attack at greater than 6 (cavalry and infantry - until marines and/or tanks come on the scene, nothing else hits hard enough), it is QUITE likely the draftees will survive to gain experience. Season in Battlefield Medicine if you can acquire it, and you can just march across the landscape.

I'll try it when I get back home on Sunday - if I let any civs live 'til the Industrial age.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Nail hit on head, Nakar!

This (except for your lack of Cavalry use) quite well describes what I use - with one difference.

I decided ages ago to use the Stacking Mod, where all units can build armies. I thought it would help, but no, armies are crap. I have found, however, that I can quickly re-culture my captured cities - by building swordsmen (1 per turn in my factory cities), I rush them into the conquered city with my extensive automated RR network, make an army and disband for 100 shields!

A cheat? Maybe. But I didn't intend it.

But I still ain't getting rid of it.