Saturday Night (USA) Diplo Game - Page 5

Frank Johnson · February 25, 2002, 00:11

The difference was, to my understanding correct me if Im wrong, that you never signed a formal peace treaty with the atlantians, but did have a formal peace agreement with the americans. I mean, even in a diplo game wouldn't you want treaties to protect you if your lacking of units couldn't?

OzzyKP · February 25, 2002, 13:19

Quote:

Originally posted by CANNON FODDER

Well...I have been in as many "diplogames "as any of you and I never knew that having an undefended city was a cassus belli.

Hey Cannon, what name did you use before this one?

Berzerker · February 26, 2002, 18:08

Hey Ozzy, what do you mean by roleplaying? I'm playing my role quite well - South Americans get invaded by bearded white guys from the east and get killed without putting up a fight, quite historical if you ask me...

OzzyKP · February 26, 2002, 19:13

Wouldn't they be dark skinned Africans who are killing you without a fight?

Rasputin · February 28, 2002, 01:17

seems to me that a few people have forgotten diplo games ar enot about winning. this was forgotten in HOTW2 and definatly happened here. Diplo is all about the stories not the actual winning of the game, but from what i read here, many civs just used their usual rapid expansion plans used in MP to win. No setting of agreeemnts with no-alliances. once the alliances in this game occured it became tribal. at least in HOTW 2 allainces broke and changed to keep world balnced.

i hope HOTW3 does not follow this route .

I belive civ3 when eventually a mp version appear swill suite diplo games far more ,

Makeo · March 4, 2002, 11:18

Proud is the city of Tenochtitlan.
Here no one fears to die in war.
Have this in mind, oh Princes.

Who could shake the foundations of Heaven?

The people of the sun rejoice. The blood of our enemies runs freely and sustains the sun in its journey across the sky. The great Huitzilopochitli grows fat from the sacrifice of his Jaguar and Eagle knights as they embrace the flowery death.

A new day is dawning. The day of the Tenocha, the Aztec and even the lowly Indian. Those who oppose Huitzilopochitli and his earthly manifestation Makeozacoatl will bend over the sacrificial alter and watch as their hearts are fed to the fires.

Long have we watched our weak and impotent neighbors. Their false gods, their petty civilizations, bickering and whining. Watched their attacks on our people, our land, little realizing that the Tenocha welcome the xochiyaoyotl, welcome the battle, welcome the chance to rule the world.

Beware the Jaguar, Beware the Eagle, for they are death.

Huitzilopochtli, the warrior,
He who acts on high
Follows his own path...
O marvellous dweller among the clouds...
O dweller in the region of the frozen wings....
He causes the walls of fire to fall down
Where the feathers are gathered.
Thus he wages war
And subdues the peoples...
Eager for war, the Flaming One descends,
He rages where the whirling dust arises.
Come to our aid!
There is war, there is burning.

deity · March 4, 2002, 21:18

Those drugs Raz gave you are cool. I might try them out

My post to follow soon... at work at the moment and the site's been down.

deity · March 5, 2002, 17:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Makeo
Proud is the city of Tenochtitlan.
Here no one fears to die in war.
Have this in mind, oh Princes.

Who could shake the foundations of Heaven?

The people of the sun rejoice. The blood of our enemies runs freely and sustains the sun in its journey across the sky. The great Huitzilopochitli grows fat from the sacrifice of his Jaguar and Eagle knights as they embrace the flowery death.

A new day is dawning. The day of the Tenocha, the Aztec and even the lowly Indian. Those who oppose Huitzilopochitli and his earthly manifestation Makeozacoatl will bend over the sacrificial alter and watch as their hearts are fed to the fires.

Long have we watched our weak and impotent neighbors. Their false gods, their petty civilizations, bickering and whining. Watched their attacks on our people, our land, little realizing that the Tenocha welcome the xochiyaoyotl, welcome the battle, welcome the chance to rule the world.

Beware the Jaguar, Beware the Eagle, for they are death.

Huitzilopochtli, the warrior,
He who acts on high
Follows his own path...
O marvellous dweller among the clouds...
O dweller in the region of the frozen wings....
He causes the walls of fire to fall down
Where the feathers are gathered.
Thus he wages war
And subdues the peoples...
Eager for war, the Flaming One descends,
He rages where the whirling dust arises.
Come to our aid!
There is war, there is burning.

LOL!

I guess the true war monger has been awakened!

little realizing that the Tenocha welcome the xochiyaoyotl, welcome the battle, welcome the chance to rule the world.

The Aztecs always wanted war. Makeozacoatl is THE universal war monger and along with his running dogs and louts they clearly plan world domination...

deity · March 5, 2002, 18:00

deity was not impressed.

Captain Deiticus had held back on him. His direct orders were to strike the yellow menace in 1700AD but now his ally, the Cantonese, bore the full brunt of the Aztec invasion and had now lost several key cities. But Deiticus was foolishly planning other missions, pre-occupied with this new menace in Africa. This was a foe not seen before by deity – a skilful and apparently peaceful opponent who had fallen to the dark side. Things were looking pretty grim for the Pacific Alliance.

You must strike before they all bear down on you!

Deiticus felt alone but was spurred on by the courageous Marshal Dangime and by the plight of the South Americans who are so clever and inventive. Deity’s old enemy was gaining the upper hand. Makeozacoatl, the master of attack had, even against the superbly defended Cantonese, still pushed through. Damn him.

And damn that Scipio. He’s got destroyers in the Indian Ocean thwarting advances there and he’d also tricked Hydey as a puppet in his master plan. The poor Americans have to now suffer the ravages of these uncouth Northerners. However, certain plans were now futile for Scipio had run back to the safety of his native Africa.

In all this Deiticus saw a shaft of light. He had an advantage with superior technology – a benefit for just a short period but it may be enough. He must stick to his plans, hold firm and be courageous. He would show deity that he was of the calibre of Captain Morant of old!! Yes, deity had told him more than he realised about this foe. He knew him. He knew how he thought. He hated him! Death to the evil alliance or martyrdom or indeed, deitification.

Was it possible for the Antarctic mission to succeed? Was their target Patagonia or Madagascar? Could the balance of world power shift to allow negotiations?

Would Hydey show his peaceful intent and cede South America back to the noble Berzerker?

What deals can be struck in this diplomatic world gone mad with war?

Berzerker · March 5, 2002, 23:17

Hey Raz, since when are dip games supposed to be about "stories"? It seems some people have tried to introduce that aspect into these games even telling others they need to play along with their agenda. I thought dip games were about trying to reduce warfare to enhance diplomacy, but that is more illusory that reality. I think the only way to achieve this is by limiting the territory that can be taken in 1 -3 turns and requiring people to cancel alliances with aggressors. Even if they don't attack the aggressor, not allowing free movement thru allied territory would be a deterrant. And we could further dis-allow gifting of money, units and cities to the aggressor by former allies forced to nullify the alliances. These restrictions could be removed once peace is made...

As long as aggressors are not penalized for attacking people, nothing of relevance has changed between a dip game and normal games.

Ozzy, the Carts were an offshoot of the Phoenicians, not black Africans.

To all - I can't seem to connect to ICQ so can Hydey or someone post the IP here for saturday? Hopefully ICQ will be back up by then, but who knows what's going on.

Frank Johnson · March 5, 2002, 23:39

Looking at the situation, even Lord Dangime temporarily seemed less than his confedant self. However he was quick to point out to us that this wasn't a war just about Canton, or we would have never joined it..........

"In my many years of ruling this nation, I could image a hundred situations worse than this one. While the losses we have taken are painful, they are on the greater scale, insignifigant. Canton has always had this cruel fate to deal with. We can only rest assured in the fact that we have done the right thing. The enemy has taken up a task that can never be finished, and time will prove this to be so. Remember that we are not alone and why we are doing this."

deity · March 8, 2002, 06:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Looking at the situation, even Lord Dangime temporarily seemed less than his confedant self. However he was quick to point out to us that this wasn't a war just about Canton, or we would have never joined it..........

"In my many years of ruling this nation, I could image a hundred situations worse than this one. While the losses we have taken are painful, they are on the greater scale, insignifigant. Canton has always had this cruel fate to deal with. We can only rest assured in the fact that we have done the right thing. The enemy has taken up a task that can never be finished, and time will prove this to be so. Remember that we are not alone and why we are doing this."

My dear allies, in this, our darkest hour we shall not despair. We will fight to the death. The Pacific Alliance is not yet dead. The war-mongering hordes of the Western Alliance will find their match on the field of battle. They created this war through their diplomatic failings. The true intent of the Aztecs is now very clear and their Northern running dogs are almost certainly falling dutifully into line.... As for the Carts, well, they are a most unpredictable and unstable race - pretending peaceful intentions yet nearly wiping out the most peaceful nation on Earth! This will be their downfall. Their decision making is confused.

The clear and decisive resolve of the Pacific Alliance will prevail, lest the world end in total destruction.

Hydey · March 9, 2002, 19:41

I am posting this from a mates house, my cable got taken out on Friday evening by a removal van and they still have not fixed it. I will therefore be unable to play this week. Feel free to get a sub if you can but I ask that the sub take instruction from Makeo and Cannon Fodder.

Sorry if this stuffs you guys up but believe me it is stuffing me up more, no internet, no phone, no cable TV.

deity · March 9, 2002, 19:58

... at least till Dang's trurn in the current year, if the sub thing doesn't work.

My turn could be a long one, if I'm lucky, so may as well keep moving.

Rasputin · March 9, 2002, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey

Sorry if this stuffs you guys up but believe me it is stuffing me up more, no internet, no phone, no cable TV.

No smut downlaods !!!

Hey what time day this planned for maybe I can sub !!

deity · March 10, 2002, 00:28

OOC - a longer post later, but...

Year 1710 AD

Southern Aztec empire in ruins.

Offer of peace made to return Aztec empire IF all of SA was returned to Berzerker along with other reparations. No replies...

1720 AD

Aztecs and Carts reply with a counter offensive. Much better than expected. Makeozacitl is a brilliant fighter but not so good on defending his poor citizens.

Some military mistakes were made on both sides but THE DEITIANS recovered the old Aztec capital and look set to sweep across Europe with artillery and Infantry... unless peace accords are discussed...

CANNON FODDER · March 11, 2002, 12:33

In our last 2 sessions, Makeo and Deity have demonstated remarkable prowess with their Civ2 offensive tactics. Kudos to both! Next session will be very interesting, our alliance has basically 3 choices:

1) Throw the dice 1 more time

2)Surrender

3)Negotiate a settlement

I have no idea at this time what course our alliance will take. I will admit that my global strategy has failed ( although it was not excecuted exactly as I had planned) primarily because I severely underestimated the speed and efficiency of Deity's mobilization.

I think that the outcome of this game was almost pre-destined from the both the map and our starting locations. I also agree with Berzerkers ideas regarding restrictions on alliances so I thought that I might post a few suggestions to perhaps enhance future diplogames ( or even MP games in general).

1)Large Map...a larger map inhibits the effects of military options as distances become greater. A large map also allows building of more cities for each civ. Most of us only had 13-14 cities this game so the loss of 2 or 3 cities becomes catastrophic. If we each had 20-25 cities losing a city would not nearly be so critical.

2) Use a random or non-world map. Everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of geography knows where all the land masses extend to and where the chokepoints are. I was basically boxed into my current location by 3850 BC. I knew at that time who my probable allies and enemies would be. The game unfolded almost exactly as I had expected. Their was very little diplomatic decision making to be had. Besides, almost no one is using historical city names so why have a known map.

3)Restrictions on alliances....Berz had some good ideas

4) Restictions on tech trading...this is probably more important than #3. The whole world divided into 2 tribes/alliances or probably better stated...2 tech trading groups. Each group was racing for tech superiority/Nukes/AC. My suggestion...each player could trade 1 tech with every other player once every 1000 years(or maybe 2000 years). This alone would reduce the advantages/effectiveness of alliances and force players to explore the world, meet all the other players, and do business with those they would normally not do business with or they would also be hurting themselves.

5)Restrictions On DoW's. This was tried in earlier diplogames, where a player needed to declare war on the turn before they actually attacked.

Frank Johnson · March 12, 2002, 03:22

Yeah these things are true, but the idea behind the smaller map was to avoid alot of the lag, long turns, etc. That plauge the larger games. A none world map might help, but if you rely on the AI to place civs, then you can get the horrible starting locations too and have to keep restarting untill there's a "clean start" with no techs or bonus settlers.

The main thing I'd do to my map is disconnect spain with africa enitrely

deity · March 13, 2002, 01:59

Hey, thanks fodder!

Now, when are you going to answer ozzy's question?!!

Actually, Makeo is my old sparring partner. I played my first online game with him and learnt heaps about war. He still needs to work on his defence

You guys really shouldn't throw in the towel though.
Even as a diplo game gone slightly off the rails it's an incredibly interesting game and worth perservering. Berzerker has hung in there with limited cities; and you can never know when a game is really won. The previous week there were rumblings that the Pacific Alliance was cactus in 1710 AD and now in 1720 AD the Western Alliance are considering surrender as an option!! I know one thing about this wonderful game and that is it's not over till it's over!! I've made comebacks and seen others make comebacks from hopeless situations; but yours is strong and your strategic planning may yet prove to be sound. Besides, Makeo hasn't seen the Loser Video yet!

I don't think the game outcome was pre-destined BTW.
Berz and Winz may have formed their own alliance and betrayals are always possible, but unlikely I guess.

----

I agree with Dang. This pak was well set up to allow for a relatively quick game. Even my longest turns are 20 mins or so. In HOTW2 my turns could take an hour with up to 300 units and 50+ cities... This modpak keeps city numbers down and thus unit numbers. Maybe the next game could allow about 20 cities each but any more would bog us down again I think.

Makeo · March 16, 2002, 15:20

i'm going out to dinner tonight so unlikely to be able to make it.

Frank Johnson · March 16, 2002, 16:32

After a turn or so it won't make that much of a difference.

deity · March 16, 2002, 17:06

It starts on Makeo's turn so it would be good to get a sub but maybe not critical since his civ is on the verge of collapse. The AI could play his remaining turns I guess.

Hydey is a worry though - not seen him online for over a week becuase of that truck that drove through his Cable connection! We may need a sub for him too. Prom, will you be around since you so kindly subbed for Hydey last week?

Prometheus · March 16, 2002, 18:08

I should be around if you need a sub for Hydey.

CANNON FODDER · March 16, 2002, 19:07

No Makeo.....No Hydey.....stick a fork in this game...its done. Your alliance won (as we all knew you would 5000 years ago). Congrats......

Its a good thing anyway...Im going on vacation and I will be out of town the next 2 weekends. I will be online today at the normal time....maybe we can discuss how we want to set the next game up(assuming everyone wants to start another game). But Makeo has a good idea...Im going out to dinner tonight too!

Frank Johnson · March 16, 2002, 19:24

I dont know about you, but when my capital was burning, I didnt feel so confedant in victory......needless to mention SA burning to the ground.......ugggggg.

deity · March 16, 2002, 19:40

Quote:

Originally posted by CANNON FODDER
No Makeo.....No Hydey.....stick a fork in this game...its done. Your alliance won (as we all knew you would 5000 years ago). Congrats......

Its a good thing anyway...Im going on vacation and I will be out of town the next 2 weekends. I will be online today at the normal time....maybe we can discuss how we want to set the next game up(assuming everyone wants to start another game). But Makeo has a good idea...Im going out to dinner tonight too!

What's the point in living?

This really spoils the fun. I would NEVER surrender. Why would one of the strongest alliances at Apolyton surrender??
[Fodder (Nappy...?) + Makeo + Hydey]

Why did you all know 5000 years ago that you would lose?
I didn't. Until my turn in 1710 everyone thought that our Pacific Alliance was toast. Berz was crippled, Dang was about to be gang banged and Winz was no 7 in the game...

Why are we analysing this as one side versus the other?

This is simply a phase in a diplo game where World War has erupted in the 16/1700's.... things can change as they have in other games.

There is much more to civ than this!

I guess it's just a few more scalps for the drake nursery

j/j

deity · March 16, 2002, 22:54

Sorry, you are a really nice guy Nappy (fodder) but I still need to speak my mind on this matter. I'm really disappointed in the extreme.

You might get a bit annoyed but I'm going to quote a few icq's you sent me

Quote:

"Deity....u cant be serious....drop all the rhetoric and propaganda for just a sec....Makeo is destoyed, Hydey deserted us, and Im still re-building from the sneak attack on me.....what would be the point of continuing the game other than to rub it in our faces???????????????"

It's all ultimately in good fun and remember the thing about me is that I'm a complete character player - I assume a part in a play when I'm online, not just IN the civ game.... eg, I drop comments in icq as strategic mis-information related to a game but you can still glean my real personalty, of course.

deity · March 16, 2002, 23:04

Quote:

he quit?* its still evenly balanced game. i think i'm done for but hydey and africans are still a force. i can't play today though

* code for Nappy surrendered

You all know the game should have gone on, even if Makeo had gotten wiped out.

I think many MP players are missing out on the braod spectrum of challenges that civ offers. It's not just super growth, super trade, strong alliances or perfect land. It's about everything that's been factored into the game and like history ANYTHING can and does happen.

What if Berzerker quit, or Dang quit in 1700?
You would never have known about 1710AD!

I rest my case....

deity · March 16, 2002, 23:05

In fact, why don't we play on each others side Nappy?

I'll take over the Carts, you take over THE DEITIANS?

How about that?

OzzyKP · March 17, 2002, 22:28

My respect to Deity for trying to inject some diplo into this game. I hope it works, but I am not holding my breath. Everyone has their own criteria for what makes a diplogame a success. In my mind what makes or breaks a game is the players in it. This game had some players with Diplo experience: Deity, Berz, and Frank. But the rest (to my knowledge) haven't played diplo and are very used to the super growth then destroy model.

Newbies are always good to bring into the game, but they shouldn't be the majority, nor should they just be dropped in the game without a proper explanation of how exactly a diplogame is unique.

I know I have been rather critical about this game, and I swear it has nothing to do with my getting kicked out. No sweat. It just never gave me that feel, from the first session I never got a diplo-feel, and by looking at the player list pre-game I didn't expect it to show much promise.

But my critique aside, I do suggest that if people want to give diplogaming an honest chance then don't walk away from this game. Put your faith in the vets, let them guide you. What Deity says is true. Diplo games are fun because things are never clear. There is always the uncertainty of real life and real situations. (Wouldn't the world be surprized if Deity's conquering army turns on Frank?)

Ah well. Good luck guys. I hope things work out. Keep an eye on HOTW3, i hope our game works out too. I'm waiting for our 3rd session to start right now.