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Old August 26, 2000, 03:06   #61
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Let's get something straight, there is a difference between a CIVILIZATION and a COUNTRY which may or may not have any power.

A CIVILIZATION has a lot of history and it is quite different from other civilizations. Some examples of civilizations are the greek civilization, chinese civilization, Jewish civilization,arabic civilization, native american civilization, egyptian civilization etc.

A COUNTRY is a body of people and a government. The USA is a country, so is Canada, Australia, Germany, China, Saudi Arabia, Isreal etc.

The only civilization to arise in the last century or two is the western civilization (Which spans all the western capitalist countries including America, Canada, Australia, Modern Japan, England and the rest of NATO etc.)

Even though the USA is not a civilization I think that it should be included because it is so powerful right now. It has had a major effect on the present world. However, Canada and Australia should not be included. They have not had a major effect on the world.


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Old August 26, 2000, 03:36   #62
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And there are major and minor civilisations.
To be qualified as major civ it should have/had been majorcultural source for surrouding regions with distinctiveness in style as Indian or Chinese civilisations had/have been.(only few are truely qualified major civs)

Major civilisations have thier own influential spheres and sometimes they overlap.

Indian orbit:Burmese,Siamese(Thai)
Chinese orbit:Korean,Japanese,Vietnamese
Indo-Chinese orbit:Tibetan,Khmer,Malay
Greek orbit:Roman
Greco-Roman orbit:Western Europe
English orbit:Australian,Canadian,New Zealander,American
American orbit:Most of developed part of world

Intersting to see some of the cultural satelites creat their own sphere.
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Old August 26, 2000, 09:12   #63
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If the game should be historically accurate, it would be boring. In 4000BC there wasn't that many civs around, so if I'd like to play as the frenh I'd have to wait until around 800 AD.
After all the game is about creating a new history, not replaying the old one.
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Old August 26, 2000, 09:17   #64
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If the game should be historically accurate, it would be boring. In 4000BC there wasn't that many civs around, so if I'd like to play as the frenh I'd have to wait until around 800 AD.
After all the game is about creating a new history, not replaying the old one.

For those historians around, it ahould be possible to exclude civs/states/nation from the default list.
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Old August 26, 2000, 09:21   #65
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If the game should be historically accurate, it would be boring. In 4000BC there wasn't that many civs around, so if I'd like to play as the frenh I'd have to wait until around 800 AD.
After all the game is about creating a new history, not replaying the old one.

For those historians around, it ahould be possible to exclude civs/states/nation from the default list.
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Old August 26, 2000, 09:56   #66
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If the game should be historically accurate, it would be boring. In 4000BC there wasn't that many civs around, so if I'd like to play as the frenh I'd have to wait until around 800 AD.
After all the game is about creating a new history, not replaying the old one.

For those historians around, it ahould be possible to exclude civs/states/nation from the default list.
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Old August 26, 2000, 13:49   #67
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*sigh*... I give up. No sence in reasoning with you... However, I wish to hear your reaction when Canada and Israel are left out of the game.

Oh, and Poland was a powerful nation, especially as part of Poland-Lithuania in the 1500s (?). Of course they were destroyed by the Russian and Swedish conquests of Polish land.
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Old August 26, 2000, 14:29   #68
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Imran-

I agree that Poland or Lithuania should be included.

Corn Master-

Those were NOT Canadian forces. In the War of 1812 the BRITISH burned washington D.C. and captured Washington D.C.

If anything was done to the United States by canada which was owned by Britain it was only in Maine or one of the lesser-populated Northern states such as Ohio, which I know was attacked in the War of 1812, but in Ohio the only cities were forts and outposts and even then I believe only two were conquered and those were conquered by British solders.

General Winfield Scott defeated the BRITISH around Vancouver and Quebec, not the CANADIANS canada, was not a country then, it was more of a commonwealth, subject to the rule of the british.

And the USA won the war of 1812 even though we were idiots to start it. We did regain washington D.C. and beat up on Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver etc.

However since we never set foot in England the war can only be called a stalemate, but America held off the British.

-NOTE: When I was in grade-school you will not believe the trash they taught us. For some reason they told us that the British declared war on the US when It was the other way around.

Well, it just goes to show what national pride can do to history.
-American or Canadian

In World War II canada's troops helped, but do you really believe that they turned the tide of the war. America's troops did so.

The Canadians entered the war before America and when we entered the British/Canadians were still stalemated/losing against the Germans. After we entered the war began to turn for the better for the allies.

NOTES on General Montgomery and other generals.

Most British and American Generals were pretty bad generals. Patton was so so but most of our generals were below average. General Montgomery stank, he lost many,many,many men but because he won his battles he was heralded as a national hero.

The real reason we won the war in Africa was Rommel ran out of supplies.

Mexico may still be a country but we did 'conquer' it. In the Mexican-American war we attacked and took Mexico City. Afterwards we signed an agreement and acquired California, etc. We could have asked for more but the cost of life had been too great.

Technically the US conquered the Phillipines, but later set them free from the bonds of American Rule because that was why the Phillipines supported us in the war against their previous occupiers.
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Old August 26, 2000, 16:08   #69
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quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud on 08-26-2000 02:29 PM
Well, it just goes to show what national pride can do to history.
-American or Canadian



I couldn't agree more!!


quote:

And the USA won the war of 1812 even though we were idiots to start it. We did regain washington D.C. and beat up on Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver etc.

Just because a country regains lost territory, doesn't mean they won the war!
quote:

Those were NOT Canadian forces. In the War of 1812 the BRITISH burned washington D.C. and captured Washington D.C.

The soldiers were living in Upper and Lower Canada at the time, while Canada wasn't independent at the time these were still Canadian soldiers. If Britian brought soldiers over from Britian and they attacked through Canada well that would be a different story.



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Old August 26, 2000, 16:52   #70
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No... they were still BRITISH! In the French and Indian War (7 years war), the British fought battle not Americans (even though forces from the 13 British colonies participated. In the War of 1812, those people in the Dominion of Canada were British and refered to themselves as such.
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Old August 26, 2000, 18:10   #71
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Just wondering, how do you do the quotes in the text.

I am just about to give up arguing this topic because to quote an old song "I'm so tired..."
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Old August 26, 2000, 18:43   #72
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Quotes -

-Quote-Message-/Quote-

Replace the "-" with "[" and "]"
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Old August 26, 2000, 21:02   #73
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Iman, for someone who refers to New Jersy as "Heaven", you sem to have a inflated sense of shelf-importence(like me).


The Israelites deserve to be in the game, their influence on history dwarfs that of the others, whether Muslims, Germans
, or the bloody Canucks.

But hey, as long as we're debating whether or little piddly-**** nations (Canada) should be included, I cast my vote for the Texans.




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Old August 27, 2000, 05:24   #74
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This is a great discussion! Thought versus stupidity!

Lonestar:

quote:


The Israelites deserve to be in the game, their influence on history dwarfs that of the others, whether Muslims, Germans
, or the bloody Canucks.



Are you crazy? How can you say such a thing??!?

quote:


But hey, as long as we're debating whether or little piddly-**** nations (Canada) should be included, I cast my vote for the Texans.





That's what I'm saying. Let's hope they include the Texans, the New Yorkans, the Californians, the Washington DC'ers, the Canadians, the Australians.........

And those pathetic Romans or Babylonians? Well, they're LOSERS! They didn't make it, they collapsed. So throw them all away! We don't want any loser civs in the game!

Long live stupidity!
Long live narrowmindness!
Long live Canada!

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Old August 27, 2000, 13:36   #75
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quote:

The Israelites deserve to be in the game, their influence on history dwarfs that of the others, whether Muslims, Germans
, or the bloody Canucks.


I want to support Lonestar, though it is absolutely impossible to prove such a statement in any verifiable way. The point is that the Hebrews (not the Israelites) produced a rather diverse collection of writings, which partly by accident were put together and given the name Bible(=the BOOK). A second part of it, like a serial story, was not liked by all followers but became in combination with the first volume (like a sales offer) the greatest bestseller of all times. A competing version of this story, using many elements and ideas from this edition, became the second greatest bestseller of all time.

Especially in less developed countries like the United States, people constantly refer to this book, though they have as a rule only very superficial knowledge and understanding of its contents. Though this book has for centuries restrained technological and scientific progress, it also teached mankind some positive lessons like morality and the protection of the weak. The two competing books caused more wars and were used as a reason to kill more people than any other range of thought.

One might call these books rather a mixed blessing, but their influence and indirectly the influence of the Hebrews can assumed to have been huge. The question how history would have turned out without the Hebrews and these books will never be answered.

It will probably be obvious that I am neither a Jew, nor a Christian or Muslim. It is not my intention to offend people deliberately.

I certainly think that such a 'Holy Book' should be included among the Wonders of the World. Parts of it, especially the Song of Songs, are magnificent poetry; some stories, like the tale of Joseph and his eleven brothers, will pass every literary criticism. The book did certainly contribute to the dominance of the Europeans.

The discussion about the historical importance and cultural/political independence of the Great Civilizations of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Namibia, Jamaica and Greenland during six millennia of human history is too silly to participate in.
The Joker has a point here: Texas and California have at least some traits of national identity. All southern American states once had an aristocratic culture distinct from the north. They also fought a real war trying to defend their 'regional' identity, one of the bloodiest wars in history(1861-1865). There is not one Canadian nation, there are at least two: the English and the French speaking Canadians, separated by religion, language and culture. As far as I know they do not have much sympathy for one another...
Lets create a Civ game with only one civilization: the Canadians!!! (who else?)

Someone else thought that a more (or less) historically correct game would inevitably be boring. Please explain why?? I do not understand such reasoning. As the game is now I enjoy the start much more than the end game. So far to my knowledge no one has suggested that civilizations cannot begin before their historically correct starting date. I only advocated the idea of not letting all civilizations at the same time. I still think it would be interesting when some start later than others. I still hope the Rise and Fall idea will be used.

And when the following idea of me will be used the game would be a fierce competion from the very beginning:

quote:

My proposal would be to let a particular Civilization start with several small towns -only one of them ruled by you- that are not politically united. So you would be forced to aim for supremacy within your own Civilization before outward expansion became a realistic possibility. This would result in fierce competition from the start, being also more in accordance with historical reality.

Just one example: in Antiquity there never was one united Greek empire. For a short period Mykene acquired a kind of overlordship. Centuries of intense competition and war between the poleis followed, the most important being Athenai, Sparta, Thebai, Korinthos, Miletos and Syrakousai. In the end Philippos and Alexander subjected most Greeks, but they were Macedonians, speaking another language and considered to be barbarians. The Byzantine Empire was the first more or less unified Greek empire.


Its a shame all newcomers seem to have missed the ideas of colonies, protectorates and diverse levels of political influence in a region: interest, influence, protectorates, military occupation, annexation, some without military control, but established by diplomatic and/or trade relations. Read SE MODELS v3.0, a rather long but very interesting thread, when you realize the great possibilities of such ideas!
[This message has been edited by S. Kroeze (edited August 27, 2000).]
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Old August 27, 2000, 18:53   #76
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When I said the game would be boring if it was historically accurate, I meant that (as an example) that if the only way the french civilization should emerge, is as a split of the Frankish state.
As S. Kroeze stated
quote:

So far to my knowledge no one has suggested that civilizations cannot begin before their historically correct starting date

my impression was wrong.

I find it quite amusing that people are arguing about a problem that can easily be solved. Include Canada (and the rest of the nations mentioned), but make it possible to dissable civs. This way some can play with Canada in the game, while others can play happily with only the ancient civs.
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Old August 28, 2000, 06:06   #77
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Actually the Isrealites spawned three of the worlds major religons (Judaism, Chrisianity and Islam).

Judaism
This was formed when Abraham listened to god and headed for Canaan, the promised land. It's story is told in the Old Testament of the bible, (I don't know what the Jewish equivalent of these books are called) and other holy texts. The Jewish people spread throughout the world. They were the target of mltiple atempts to wipe them out (e.g. The Holocaust, but this isn't the only example).

Chrisianity
This is a splinter group of Judaism that was founded when Jesus Christ started his teachings around 1AD (hmmm, I wonder if our calendar is based on this event). After it's death the christians were persecuted until the Roman Emporer Constantine was converted. Christianity spread throughout Europe and it became the dominant force there (even Kings deffered to the church, well most of the time). When the Muslims occupied Jerusalem, the European Christian kingdoms luanched multiple crusades in an attempt to free the city.

Islam
Islam dates back to the time of Abraham as well. Abraham had 2 sons. One went on to lead the Israelites while the other (Ishmael I think) went off and became the Arabic people. Around 600AD The prophet Mohammed began what we know as Islam. If it hadn't been for this the Arabic people would have never become organised. Islam spread from Mecca to as far as West Africa and the Phillipines.

I would say that the Israelites had quite an effect on history.


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Old August 28, 2000, 14:53   #78
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Seriously Kroeze, that was the funniest post you have made so far! I laughed out loud several times while reading it.

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Old August 28, 2000, 15:51   #79
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quote:

Originally posted by S. Kroeze on 08-27-2000 01:36 PM
Though this book has for centuries restrained technological and scientific progress, it also teached mankind some positive lessons like morality and the protection of the weak. The two competing books caused more wars and were used as a reason to kill more people than any other range of thought.

Even though off-topic, I couldn't agree more. Religion is what is holding mankind back. Less today in the past but The Bible's evil influence is still here.
quote:


There is not one Canadian nation, there are at least two: the English and the French speaking Canadians, separated by religion, language and culture. As far as I know they do not have much sympathy for one another...

You are totally right there too. SOME not all (And it's those some that bother me) French Canadians think they are special and aren't treated well in Canada!! There are more laws and regulations protecting the French than the Natives (Which is another arguement I'm not going to start here). If anything Canada needs to have the same rules for all it's citizens and not seperate them because of language, or culture!! (This topic of French and Native special status bugs me to the core and I just hat the idea!!!)


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Old August 28, 2000, 16:39   #80
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CornMaster & Vitmore

Canada should not be a civ, it's frankly ridiculous.

Now we have 2 Canadians for, 2 against, and 1 who says you non Canadians are being hostile.

Well, maybe defending an unreasonable position brought that reaction.

Anyway, please mock those holding the position, not the whole population of the country. Its a fine country, with more people in Ontario or Quebec than all of Denmark. Unlike Germany, which pseudo existed as a score of diverse squabbling tribes for centuries, before finally getting together to the chagrin of the rest of the world, which it tried to destroy no less than twice in 25 years. And to suggest that Germany has a unified culture is ridiculous, the north and south in Germany are very different, as are yankees and ex-confederates in the states...

Anyway enough sport. The US is not a civ either, but a split of the British Civ. It is silly to start with Americans in 4000 BCE.

The Hebrews are of course a Civ, although we can't expect support from a Muslim, can we Imran? They're maybe a little like a OCC in civ terms, perhaps a minor tribe in some respects, but of undeniable impact and guess what- the longest lasting civilization on the planet.

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Old August 28, 2000, 19:41   #81
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My religion has nothing to do with it... although you would try to use it against me.

If the Jews are in Civ... then Buddists should have their civ and don't forget about Islam or Christianity! So that means, Hebrews, Buddists, Islam, and Christianity.

Don't forget the others either.

I don't ****ing care if they had the biggest effect on history ever (actually the greatest effect came from Jesus and Christianity... I don't see them in the game), they aren't a civ. They aren't powerful enough, they aren't good enough.
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Old August 29, 2000, 08:36   #82
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quote:

Originally posted by Biddles on 08-28-2000 06:06 AM

Islam
Islam dates back to the time of Abraham as well. Abraham had 2 sons. One went on to lead the Israelites while the other (Ishmael I think) went off and became the Arabic people. Around 600AD The prophet Mohammed began what we know as Islam. If it hadn't been for this the Arabic people would have never become organised. Islam spread from Mecca to as far as West Africa and the Phillipines.





Well biddles , not exactly . before Mohammed , there is actually very little known about the Arabic religion , But from what is known they were Polytheistic ( that's the right spelling right ? )
Mohammed travelled to the Mediterranean , where he was introduced to Christianity and Judaism . from these religions the Islam deleveloped .


Imran :
in the ancient times the United Kingdom of Israel existed for about 150 years ruling Israel Syria Jordan The Gaza Strip the Philstine trade cities of Gaza Gat Ekron Ashdod and Ashkelon . but before that there is a period of the Israelite tribes living for about 500 years in Israel . after it's days of glory from app. 1000 BC to 1150 BC the Israeli Empire collapsed and split into 2 Kingdoms : Israel and Judea , Judea having the Negev Desert , Jerusalem, Hebron and some lands over the Jordan River ,and Israel having the Northen part of Israel : Samaria , the galilee the Golan heights and also some parts over the Jordan river . both were bordering Bnei Amon .a tribe the capital of which was Rabat-Bnei-Amon aka Amman .
in app 670 BC the Assyrian King Sanhariv conquers Israel and exiles it's whole population to be dispersed in their empire. the Egyptians' Army which have an alliance with Israel is also torn appart.
after the decline of the Assyrians the Babylonians arise. the Babylonian King with one complicated name conquers Jersalem in app. 586 BC and burns down the temple , taking the artifacts to his treasury . he too exiles the people to babylon where they live in a city called ... Tel Aviv . after the decline of Babylon the Persians came . the Persian King Cyrus let the Judeans Have their Gold ware and build the second temple in Jerusalem . During Alexander The Great the Judeans enjoyed full religious freedom ,because of which Alexander has become one of the Jewish names at the period . after the death of ATG his empire was split betweeen his Generals . His succesors were less tolerant to the Judeans.While resisting to the occupation and to the forced Helenisation during which the temple was desacrated , one of the Jewish prestigious families , which served in the temple , started a rebellion that quickly swept through MOST of the people and a liberation movement started . After defeating the 'greeks' and forcing them out , The Judean Kingdom was established once again . in app. 100 BC their allies from the previous war against the 'greeks' , the Romans , conquered Judea . forsing the local queen to be forced out . they placed a king of their own . in app. 60 BC a rebellion defeated the legion posted in Judea and the one posted in Syria . started a local wave of rebellions . in 67 BC the Romans quelled the Rebellion and then burned Jerusalem to the Ground having its riches paraded in Rome .The Roman Commander called the whole area Palestine after the ppl living in the area now known as the Gaza strip . in the 900's the first Jews begin to return to Israel.

in 1882 the Zionist movement begins in Russia .

ATG - Alexander the Great
App. approximately


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Old August 29, 2000, 19:15   #83
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Uh... thanks for the history lesson and all but what is your point?

After all, the Assyrians aren't in the game either. Or the Hittites.
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Old August 30, 2000, 14:39   #84
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Well that's wrong btw . assyrians must be in the game as one of the great empires of the ancient time . my point is that no civ was a superpower for too much time . babylon had a great culture . but it was a superpower only for about 200 years . and superpower only in regional meanings . It was uncomparabely weaker than the chinese kingdoms at the time .

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Old August 30, 2000, 14:40   #85
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Well that's wrong btw . assyrians must be in the game as one of the great empires of the ancient time .
the hitites (spell?) were the inventors of Iron Working

my point is that no civ was a superpower for too much time . babylon had a great culture . but it was a superpower only for about 200 years . and superpower only in regional meanings . It was uncomparabely weaker than the chinese kingdoms at the time .

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Old August 31, 2000, 11:53   #86
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interesting discussion you brought up here, fellows! go on!
 
Old August 31, 2000, 17:50   #87
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Well IF they have 64 civs in the game, then you can include the Hebrews, but I doubt that many will be added to the game...
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Old September 1, 2000, 13:18   #88
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I don't know if anyone has said this before because it is impossible for me to look through all of this but these groups of nations, I think, should not belong:

All MODERN American nations;
All MODERN Turkish nations;
All MODERN African nations except Ethopia;
Any MODERN small island nations;

Please, everyone, don't hate me.

P.S. No combo nations like Austria-Hungary and Byzantine Empire, too.


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Old September 1, 2000, 19:59   #89
Lonestar
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hhoooowwwdddyyy

I am astonished that this is even being discussed. Of Course the Hebrews should be represented in CivIII.

It existed as the superpower of Canaan for 150yrs. It remained a major player (though split) for about 300 yrs. In fact, a coalition of Caananite nations, led by Israel smashed the Babylonians in ancient times. Repeatably.

Imran~
I am getting the distinct feeling that you do not have a leg to stand on with your "no-Jews-allowed!" faction.

Jesus may have had a huge influence, but the fact that he was Jewish had a big part to do with that.

Also, the Hebrews have more or less managed to retain their cultural identity for the past 3000 years, while you can travel the world and find Christians with different cultures (damn frogs).

Even in modern times the Hebrews have proven themselves a force to be reckoned with. They have soundly whipped any enemy since the establishment of the state of Israel, and even though they have had the chance many times, they have not dismantled the Dome of The Rock and rebuilt the Temple .

Don't diss the Hebrews. They are a force to be reckoned with, and I wish them luck in crushing the so-called Palestinian State that Arafat's going to delcare on Sept. 13.

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Old September 1, 2000, 20:24   #90
wernazuma
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hey lonestar, come on

Although I favor israelites in Civ3 (if you read my posts here you saw that), I can't believe you say: "I hope they crush the palestineans"

I still hope the peace-process isn't dead and an agreement can be found, but I fully understand the wish of palestineans for an own state.

Anyway, we should exclude actual politics from here and statements like yours shouldn't have a place here.
 
 

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