About Industrial/Modern combat

[Solver]

I am not whining about the combat system or AI bonuses in combat. I'm whining about my fighting skills, probably. Just can't fight in Civ3.

My current game. I have by far the best economy, large territory. My army is the biggest in the world. There are two other countries, small England - 7 cities, has Infantry and Cavalry and the Iroquois - big nation, same tech level as me, that is Tanks, Infantry, Mech Inf and Bombers.

I decide I don't quite need England, and send three Transports full of Tanks to them, should be enough to take 7 cities fortified with Infantry or Riflemen. Additional forces include 4 Bombers, 5 Ironclads, Destroyer, Battleship, 5 Cavalry and about 10 Immortals. I declare war on English and start hitting them. In the first turn I raze two of their cities, sink several ships and do damage to infrastructure.

Next turn, Iroquois declare war on me. Why the hell, I've checked, they had NO Mutual Protection. But OK now, they're huge, but my army is bigger than theirs.

Now, I have disorders everywhere, I go into Anarchy and start losing things. Some of my escorted Transports are getting killed, but that's OK. Some of English Cavalry defeats my Tanks, but that's OK by me too, as I have just killed 2 English Ironclads on defense with my Galleons. Thus, battle oddities are equal.

Annoying this is that the Iroquois won't attack my size 20 cities, fortified with 5 Mech.Inf. and 6 Infantry, it will attack that small size 3 colony city only fortified by two Riflemen. I know it knows where are my weakest protected cities, but I think the AI should sometimes bypass them and try attacks on large cities that would be very important for me (damn, I got a size 26 city with 3 wonders, doesn't he want it?). I do, of course, attack weakest cities of him as well. I did even regain some cities by Propaganda (I've cheapened espionage in the Editor).

Two things now that really take the heck out of me. First, my artillery bombardments of land fail 75% of the time. Second, the AI doesn't use Bombers vs. cities that have Jet Fighters in them, it attacks cities without them, even though attacking the cities with them is more strategically important.

I guess I'd need some tips on what to do in Industrial/Modern wars... never was good military wise, but this is just embarassing. And another thing I'm pointing out is that the AI wouldn't win those fights if it attacked important targets.

[Harovan]

[First, my artillery bombardments of land fail 75% of the time.]

So do mine. Take it like a man.

[Second, the AI doesn't use Bombers vs. cities that have Jet Fighters in them, it attacks cities without them, even though attacking the cities with them is more strategically important.]

The AI is very good in finding your weak spots. It's not important if it cheats or this is some kind of "strategy". Don't garrison your "good" cities, because they usually are in the center of your empire and the enemy needs first to get there! Garrison the smallish colonies at your borders, because they will be attacked first in 99% of the cases. Garrison them heavily also prevents them from defecting.

Generally, you should make a better mix of your invasion force. You actually take only attackers. Mix them of attackers+defenders+artillery in equal parts, of after flight, only attackers+defenders (no artillery, use bombers). This will make a refugium for your wounded tanks after attacking and they are a formidable garrison for conquered cities, a MUCH better one than your (down to 1 hp ) tanks are. So take Cav./Tanks/Modern Armor AND Riflemen/Inf./Mech Inf., when you invade a foreign country.

[Harovan]

Sorry for doubling, there were "database problems" and I reposted it.

Uhm... and yes: With "Don't garrison good cities" I meant don't garrison them with more than, say, 2 infs or so... 11 defenders for a city in the center is fairly overdosed, this ain't Civ II anymore where the enemy could use your RR net

[vmxa1]

It seems to me that if they attack small cities, that is to your benefit. You should at least have RR to all cities. If so I would run as many units as needed to whack the invasion and start laughing as I reduce the size of their army. I would then start sacking their cities near my borders so they can not use the roads to get around and take the war to them. If I can see any large group of units that would be a priority. I would increase my production of modern armour to make it easier. Typically they will have a fraction of the total units in modern stuff and once you bust those they will have large numbers of junk. I would have nothing but upgraded units, so it will be a cake walk very soon. You see things like if they have 150 units, it will be 10-15 of the latest one and massive numbers of pikemen or spearmen or horsemen or UU. I love it if the UU is an acient one, they will have a tons and they are worthless against tanks. The best way to avoid this problem would have been to thin them out a long time ago. I like to take all civs down a peg or two by the time I am near the top of heap. You can get others to war with them if need be or join in one that is going on. If they lose a few cities early that will keep them from being on equal footing with you.

[Arrian]

A couple of suggestions:

1) It sounds like you have too many defending troops and not enough attackers. What I mean is that you say you've got 5 mech inf and 6 inf in one city. Way, way too much. First off, get those troops to the front lines. Put them in border cities or on good defensive terrain such that they impede the enemy's troops - forcing them onto nice flat ground where you can kill them. Build Tanks, and LOTS of them, instead of mech inf. Attack, attack, attack, even if the "attacks" are picking off units until you can mass enough troops to take down a couple of cities at once. The fact is, static defense (putting lots of good defensive units in your cities) sucks in Civ III. The AI will just pillage the hell out of you, and not attack. It knows when it has no chance of success, and will not pick those fights. So you need offensive defenders to go out and kill the AI's pillaging force.

2) Artillery misses often, so use it in bunches. I don't really use it on the attack anymore, because my Tanks/Modern Armor (and Cavalry before that) can move much faster. Plus, Bombers can do the job. However, if you have arty lying around, move it up to the areas where the enemy is attacking you, and use it to soften the AI's attackers. Then use your attackers to kill his. This will increase your chances of success in battle, and therefore your chances of promotion/great leaders (not to mention lower casualties).

3) Finish the English (or make peace) and concentrate on the Iroquois. Are there any other civs out there that you could convince to join you vs. Mr. Hiawatha? The AI has serious problems with two front wars.

4) Use the AI's quirks against it. You know it will only bomb cities w/o fighters. Ok, move you fighters such that he can only bomb unimportant cities. Or better yet, attack and destroy his bombers on the ground by taking the cities they're based in. You will often find that the AI, like you, will mass a bunch of bombers in one place. Nail that city, and *poof* there goes half (or more) of his airforce.

5) When you invade, put your troops on good defensive ground (mountains if possible, otherwise hills, jungle, forest...), as the AI stupidly leaves these squares vacant. Move fast, hit hard. If possible, strike at the enemy's core cities. If you have to, put together a naval task force and go whack his capitol (burn it to the ground). That will hurt him badly.

Good luck.

-Arrian

[Viriato]

Ask the other leaders what they want to join you in the war against your opponent. If you don't he will.

[Admiral PJ]

Don't forget the tactic about using allies to help you, sign a mutual protection pact (cheaper than alliances) or alliances with a neighbour and give them a Right of Passage, so they can attack your enemy with you.. sometimes they'll take to much of your enemy and you'll not be left with many cities (no point losing all the spoils of war).

This is good if your enemies nearer your ally too, conquered cities will be less corrupt , being nearer their capitals.

I've not had experience with Air power, but maybe if you can gain air superiority its an advantage..

These marines look pretty useful too.

Don't forget to naval bombard the enemies coasts repeatedly to destroy any coast line resource links.

Artillery can fire with a range of 2 also, which can help.. you can soften up the enemy well without being in danger of being counterattacked.

BIG HINT: the computer loves capturing your units- artilerry, exploers, workers. You can sacrifice a cheap cannon or worker by putting it out in the open, so the enemy cavalry etc will take this and not be able to attack your main forces.. you can also draw the enemy into dangerous situations like this where you can easily slaugher them.

I'm hoping the germans will make good allies in my game.. i've kept them to a thin strip on my conquered continent, their Panzer tanks should help attack my enemies.. I keep them happy by giving them the resources which i've grabbed, and especially happy giving them the latest Technologies.

[Admiral PJ]

Ooops double post
where is my memory chip?

[vmxa1]

As was mentioned those arties can be brought up and make it real tough on attackers. That is why I RR all cities. If you have 8 or more art some place you send them in and drop the attackers HP to 1 and it is a feast for the defenders. Tanks and Meck Inf only late in the game. Mech from Infantry upgrades, no new ones, only tanks. I love it when they send a stack and i swing my atries over and punish them. If I see them in time I get them out in the open. Run the up close and bomb away. I also will have few bombers to call on. But like I said, do not let them get that strong.

[Solver]

I have been playing this on island maps. Now I'm playing on continents and then it's good to RR all the cities, then troops can be shifted around fast.

I'll try two of the suggestions, heavily garrisoning border cities and using defensive troops in attack. I have, though, sometimes tried Infantry. Great unit, it defends and can pillage that enemy empire very nice.

Good suggestions, guys.

[Skeletal Dragon]

The most important thing about Modern Warfare is to remove your opponent's capability of holding a counter-offensive. Find ways to pick off their troops that are en route to your cities. In one of my games, this one civ had just killed another civ, and had its troops all over the former civ's territory, which was covered in RR. I declared war on them, razed their newly captured cities (except for the ones that have access to oil or luxuries, so they can't get tanks), and proceeded to kill off their numerous cavalry units with my own tanks.

Needless to say, Bombardment will be the most useful tool in Modern Warfare. Despite what everyone says, getting the "Bombardment failed" message when using Artillery appears less often than it seems. The only time when you should be cursing to yourself is when it hits a city improvement other than barracks or misses entirely. In Modern Warfare, City combat is more about taking down the city size, since it can easily give Infantry units 50%-100% more defense, which is hard for Cavalry or even Tanks to punch through.

The best Bombardment units in the Industrial Age (that's late enough in the game, right?) would have to be Battleship and Bomber. Simply put, Battleships aren't given enough credit. This unit is a powerhouse! I have never missed a bombardment with it, and seems to take down unit hit points much more than a destroyer or a bomber. A follow up with Marines is good too, since you can attack directly from the sea and is a good unit if you don't have tanks. (Actually, ignore the part about Marines. Amphibious Warfare is just a tech branch above Mass Production and right next to modern warfare and you should have Atomic Theory and Electronics at that point by trading techs. It's just better to go for Modern Warfare and get tanks, providing you have rubber, which seems to be one of the more common strategic resources.) In the Modern Age, well, there isn't really anything new there since the only useful units (that i've found in my experience) are Modern Tank and Mech Infantry. And my games usually don't go that much into the Modern tech in terms of warfare, since its much better to win the game at that point by Space Race or UN.

One more thing about modern warfare: more often than not, its better to raze a city than to capture it. Why? Because the cities at the edges or moderately inside enemy territory will have relatively low culture, so razing it won't have a difference in terms of strategic movement. And besides, later on in the game, its a waste of resources to try to hold an enemy city since the AI tends to attack the city relentlessly to liberate the city and you have to continually supply the city with more defenders when instead you could be using those shields to produce more tanks and kill more cities. If the city has a relatively high culture or of strategic importance (such as being between several larger cities), then you should capture the city instead, so you can have some extra movement along their RR network. And try to end the resistance as fast as possible and rush an Airport to start airlifting units in

I hope that helps.

[Solver]

Good post. Main point is, Battleship is a powerful unit. I also discovered its power, very formidable, with ranged powerful bombing, too.

[Blitzer]

I don't do a lot of attacking in my games, but I do a lot of defending. Usually I'll expand to the point where my palace and forbidden palace cover enough space to give me a good economy and then go to war over a resource if I have to.

I almost NEVER place more than ONE defender in each city on my island/continent unless it is on a border. I keep a decent sized navy (one per costal city, in port), and a decent number of fast attack units in the capitol, backed by artillery.

Assuming you control your entire landmass, this is more than enough to stop almost any attack. I've never seen the computer use marines, so once the enemy force lands I move my artillery into position and bomb away, followed by a charge from the massed fast attackers. You don't even need the tanks/cavalry, you can just conscript enough infantry or rifleman to take them out, providing you have enough artillery that is.

The main annoyance is the bombardment of your city tiles, which is easily combated by artillery/bombers followed by the one garrisoned destroyer/ironclad. I might consider using two defenders if I were in a communist government, but anything more than that is a waste of money.

Defending is easy. As for attacking, The above strategies are sound. You need a good mix of offensive and defensive. Take as many defenders as you did attackers, and add a defender for each city you are planning on taking.

As for ancient era fighting, I am a big proponent of swordsmen. I will generally attack with massed swordsmen/hopalites/catapults, and leave my horsemen garrisoned in border cities to combat counterattacks. I build plenty of warriors in the beginning and upgrade them for a hefty 8-10 unit shock force and back those up with 4-5 catapults, 5-6 hopalites and a few horsemen to guard against the counterattack.

Hope this helps.

[Harovan]

Good post, Blitzer, but doesn't work on large/huge maps with continents, or else you have to be an extreme war monger in the ancient/medieval eras, taking out all others, do you?

I use to take 2 defenders per city and upgrade them alternately: first 2 spearmen, then 1 to pikeman, the remaining spearman to musketman, the pikeman to rifleman and so on. This has the benefit that you can move 1 unit out if necessary (e.g. if there is war and shortage on the borders), increases your total unit count and the AI will consider your military strong, be mostly polite, and will not demand tribute or move forces over your territory without RoP. The upkeep money doesn't really matter, assuming you are a good resource/tech trader.

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by Blitzer
As for ancient era fighting, I am a big proponent of swordsmen. I will generally attack with massed swordsmen/hopalites/catapults, and leave my horsemen garrisoned in border cities to combat counterattacks. I build plenty of warriors in the beginning and upgrade them for a hefty 8-10 unit shock force and back those up with 4-5 catapults, 5-6 hopalites and a few horsemen to guard against the counterattack.

If you have enough catapults to get defenders hp down to 1 or 2 hp, swordsmen do just as well(actually better when attacking 1hp unit) as horsemen. However, moving a stack of catapults and swordsmen is very slow. I only make major use of swordsmen if I don't have horses, and then it is in a specific war to gain horses. Having a few swordsmen along with a horsemen army attacking can help crack a tough city if all your horsmen have to retreat and the city is just left with 1 or 2 weak defenders. This way your horseman+swordsman army could be a little smaller than your horseman army otherwise. It doesn't matter if you are trying to wipe everything out, but if your goals are limited this would be good.

[Blitzer]

Good post, Blitzer, but doesn't work on large/huge maps with continents, or else you have to be an extreme war monger in the ancient/medieval eras, taking out all others, do you?

I play mainly on reg maps, continents. I rarely if ever leave a war-capable AI opponent on my continent. Once I left the romans alive (I had no iron, and those legionares are a beating). After 3000 years of peace and another 2000 or so years of a mutual protection pact during which we fought many wars together, they decided to backstab me over a patch of uranium. I lost a wonder city which was generating 80 culture per turn off the bat, but crushed them by mobilizing for war and using conscript infantry and my 8 garrison tanks to hold them off until the war machine whipped into gear. The end result was that I lost out on a cultural victory and was forced to win by yet another boring spaceship win.

Lesson learned... continental rivals are to be crushed at any cost regardless of their supposed loyalty. If you can drive a tank to my capitol, you are taken out, as early as possible.

If you have enough catapults to get defenders hp down to 1 or 2 hp, swordsmen do just as well(actually better when attacking 1hp unit) as horsemen. However, moving a stack of catapults and swordsmen is very slow. I only make major use of swordsmen if I don't have horses, and then it is in a specific war to gain horses. Having a few swordsmen along with a horsemen army attacking can help crack a tough city if all your horsmen have to retreat and the city is just left with 1 or 2 weak defenders. This way your horseman+swordsman army could be a little smaller than your horseman army otherwise. It doesn't matter if you are trying to wipe everything out, but if your goals are limited this would be good.

I disagree... but then again that's what makes the game great. Perhaps my liking of the greeks and their exceptional hopalite unit assists this strategy, but I prefer the slow moving mass of swordsmen as the main assault force. With hopalites defending, you ignore any attempt to chip away at your army with blitz units... horsemen are completely ineffective against hopalites and catapults.

If I were playing a civ with a blitzing UU, strategies change... Massed horsemen with defending jaguar warriors and/or Impi were effective, but not enough for me to want to play one of those civs. I've had success with War Chariot assaults, and although I've never played the Iriquois, I imagine a 3/1 fast unit is quite a beating. All things being equal however, I love the cheap, sturdy, and effective swordsman.

[Arrian]

I admire your patience - I don't use any bombard unit short of artillery... and usually all of my artillery is upgraded AI catapults/cannon that I've captured.

As for defenders in cities... my "core" cities get 1 unit. That's it. The border towns generally get... 1 defender, MAYBE two, and a bunch of attackers... note that, post-horsemen, the "attacker" 2-move units do have ok defense, knights in particular - a 3 defense in the middle ages is equal to the best defender. The AI rarely rushes you... they usually bring a lot of footsoldiers, which march slowly up to your town. During that time, you can mass your mobile troops. When their stack reaches the square next to your town, hit it with everything you have. Any of your troops that retreat will do so back into the city. Any that win will also end up back in the city, until the stack is destroyed. That way, you don't leave any units exposed. This is the most effective way of destroying the AI's army. If you have bombard units that can be used first, by all means use them too. Then attack. The AI will have very little left to counter you.

For me, the above scenario usually plays out in the first AI city (and sometimes several cities) I capture. I weather the counterattack, destroying most of his army, and then proceed.

-Arrian

p.s. I just want to throw in my 2 cents re: horsemen vs. hoplites. Sure, you need a bunch, but in numbers they do fine. How do I know? I've done it. I've beaten the Romans (3.3.1. legions) with horsemen. The difference is, of course, your use of catapults and the fact you are smarter than the AI.

[nibbles]

The AI has serious problems with two front wars.

i recently played a game where i as Chinese at war constantly with the Zulus , anyway the Zulus would send down a hell of a lot of troops, i.e. +100 anyway i got France on my side.

France was located on a couple of islands while the Zulus and me on the same continent (France did have some cities on this continent, most it founded some i gave to it ), anyway i eventually retired after 2 much of a beating looking on the reply i saw the Zulus managed to capture about 10 of the 15 French cities on our continent at the same time as it's war with me. France initially captured some of the Zulus cities.

The French cities on the whole where on the other side of the continent and i could not support it, and the French weren’t in the way of my cities so to speak. I also noticed that the Zulus seem to pull some of it troops from it attacks against me , about 20% of it troops i guess they went north to get the French.

The thing that impressed me but i didn’t know till i retired was that using the French was an effective measure, alright they didn’t do great but they where the smallest civ in the game and also there main cities where on islands and i don’t think they had access to modern ships/transports. But for the cities they had it seem it proved to be a good diversion and cause the Zulus some initial headaches, i did have to pay for the luxury of the French alliance though in the form of luxuries.

If i had continued the Zulus would off ejected the French from the continent and the french would off been unlikely to do much from it's main islands.