Should I automate?

Mariakles · January 11, 2002, 20:14

I have only been platying Civ 3 for a little while and I have this question :

When you place a mine on a tile, it increases shields right?

If you place irrigation it increases food and roads increase commerce?

This question is this: should I alternate a place irrigation, shield, road or do say 3 irrigation, 3 roads, 3 shields. Or even do all shields then remove and do irrigation and so on...

For that matter should I automate 'cause all an automated worker seems to do is roads, never mines and rarely irrigation?

I am finding the learning curve for this game hard

Velociryx · January 11, 2002, 20:46

Right you are....mines for shields, irrigation for food. Roads can be plopped down "on top of" the other two though, so you can put them anywhere, regardless of other terraforming.

As to exactly how to go about it....two things to consider:

1) How fast do you want a given city to grow and, can you control the population WHEN it grows? (The faster you want a given city to grow, simply ratchet up the number of irrigated tiles). Likewise with production:

2) How much production do I (realistically) NEED at a given city? (ie- let's say you're playing the Aztec, and you've got a city that's dedicated to building Jaguars (you've just finished a Barracks there)....well, Jags cost all of ten shields, and shields don't "carry over" (ie - if you have a city producing 12 shields, you simply lose 2 shields when your jag finishes). Thus, plan your shield outputs around what sorts of things you plan on doing with the city in question.

-=Vel=-
PS: And never automate anything! Automated anythings do a half-baked job for you....more tedious, but better by far to control them yourself!

-V.

Mariakles · January 11, 2002, 22:21

Thanks for your help Vel. I will follow your advice.

I know from scanning the forum that your one of the experts at Civ but most of the strategies I am reading about are way over my present understanding of the game (for now anyway).

Willem · January 11, 2002, 23:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx

-=Vel=-
PS: And never automate anything! Automated anythings do a half-baked job for you....more tedious, but better by far to control them yourself!

-V.

A couple of exceptions I've found are CTRL-N (build trade roads) and Shift-J (Clear Jungle) They're about the only automated commands where they don't end up doing something stupid. Like cutting down a forest that I just finished planting for the extra shields. If only I could throttle those guys once in awhile, I'd feel much better.

Shaka II · January 12, 2002, 00:21

Well, I use automation quite a bit, but not in the early game. I certainly wouldn't argue with Vel that automated workers can't match a good players worker assignment, but it's a concession I make to speed game play. They are infinitely better than in civ2. I generally have a handful under my control to perform critical functions.

Some other tips:

Before improving tiles, check the city screen to see the potential of various tiles and which tiles to start on first, realizing that a city can only utilize as many tiles as the current population (don't over cultivate). Keep a balance of production and growth. You generally want at least +2 food/turn to promote fast growth. If you grow too fast and are getting unhappy, well you can pop a settler or worker out and knock the population down, or reduce the excess food by selecting a tile that is high in production, but has little or no food.

To maximize the efficiency of worker movements, build roads (+1 gold) on improved tiles before you move on (saving a turn later). Start building roads leading to your new cities even before they are built to give your settler a head start.

Every map has different challenges. I have been on small continents more than once with no rivers (no Hoover Dam

) or lake sources to irrigate with, so irrigation is sometimes not an option (until electricity).

Paddy · January 12, 2002, 04:58

Howdy,

I have found that it is good to keep your workers under your control for the first few thousand years. When you have a very good city sructure created, go ahead a set a few free. I have seen them do some stupid things, but mainly they free me up for more complex situations. Like where the next pub will be built....

Good luck, hope you enjoy the game as much as I do.

notyoueither · January 12, 2002, 05:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
If only I could throttle those guys once in awhile, I'd feel much better.

Ideas to bring up with Jeff...

Subject: Furtherance of Civer satisfaction...

New Military Unit Ability: Whip Workers.

Note to art dept: Can we get animated shots of this?

Salve

Paddy · January 12, 2002, 05:23

what colour do you want the slaver shirts to be?

slime green appropriate

notyoueither · January 12, 2002, 05:27

No. Imperial purple would be good.

Salve

Harovan · January 12, 2002, 10:13

I automate workers mostly in the medieval and early industrial ages and keep only a small group "for my purposes only". I won't argue, that it may be not so efficient like hand-tuned workers and I won't win a game on deity this way.

The first point is: I already got a job and after a day of hard labor I don't want another hard work. I want fun, it's just a game for me, and both levels beyond Monarch are a tough job, if you want to win. So I play at Monarch or Regent and my games are the more fun, the less I have to care about the tedious part of Civ3.

The second point is, I love to play at large or huge maps. That means a lot of land, at least 30 cities, 30 native workers and minimum 30-50 captured workers. If I would manage all cities and all workers myself, I would need about an hour per turn to make it right, and my games would last a month or more.

So for the sake of fun I leave most of the workers automated for at least a certain period of time. And if I notice one to make nonsense like cutting a forest I just planted, well, I override the automation, send him anywhere else and automate him again and the forest is safe. For a while

.

Vel: About shield planning (the Jag example)... If you can make something else useful with the citizen, lige adding more gold or food, I agree. But simply put him from shielded (or mined) to simple grassland, just not to waste 1 shield, is nonsense.

Willem · January 12, 2002, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I automate workers mostly in the medieval and early industrial ages and keep only a small group "for my purposes only". I won't argue, that it may be not so efficient like hand-tuned workers and I won't win a game on deity this way.

The first point is: I already got a job and after a day of hard labor I don't want another hard work. I want fun, it's just a game for me, and both levels beyond Monarch are a tough job, if you want to win. So I play at Monarch or Regent and my games are the more fun, the less I have to care about the tedious part of Civ3.

The second point is, I love to play at large or huge maps. That means a lot of land, at least 30 cities, 30 native workers and minimum 30-50 captured workers. If I would manage all cities and all workers myself, I would need about an hour per turn to make it right, and my games would last a month or more.

So for the sake of fun I leave most of the workers automated for at least a certain period of time. And if I notice one to make nonsense like cutting a forest I just planted, well, I override the automation, send him anywhere else and automate him again and the forest is safe. For a while

.

Vel: About shield planning (the Jag example)... If you can make something else useful with the citizen, lige adding more gold or food, I agree. But simply put him from shielded (or mined) to simple grassland, just not to waste 1 shield, is nonsense.

One thing I've been meaning to try is creating another Worker unit, and setting it's automated tasks in the Editor to only those I really want him to do. You could even have specialists if you create a few of them. Have one that only irrigates, another that only mines, etc. Just use the default Worker for special tasks. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, to busy creating new improvements and Small Wonders.

kmill25 · January 12, 2002, 11:57

I agree with Sir Ralph. I automate most of my workers except for a small band of special project workers. That way most of the work I need to get done get's done and for the pressing issues;conecting cities, resources, ect. I do myself.

Darth Sidious · January 13, 2002, 06:28

automate is good for playing on a non competetive diff level where you don't have to bother about what they do to much.
I tried it once, and the AI starts clearing a damn jungle while there were plenty good squares to use that needed irrigation or mines.

To start, i always try to build my cities so that each (or as many as possible) has either a weed or a cattle resource so that it will have 4 surplus. when i irrigate it (or more if it is on a flood plane)

In early game it is useless to irrigate grasslands since despotism makes the 3 food 2 anyway. so for the first 3-4 citisens, i will either mine a grassland or irrigate a plains.

For the cities that have a food bonus as mentioned, i simply keep doing this forever so that all the squares basically give 2 food and that one square gives it enough surpluss.

For the ones that don't have the bonus, i will irrigate 2-3 grasslands as soon as i have a governemt that makes it usefull.

Also do i later irrigate grasslands to even up the food shortage when working hills/mountains.

I just try to keep my surpluss at 4-5.

Harovan · January 13, 2002, 09:50

Darth Sidious:

I agree with you, in the ancient ages automation isn't useful, except for a Ctrl-N (trade network) for a couple of workers, not to bother myself. And an irrigated grassland+cattle tile plus a mined grassland+shield make a kickass settler farm (a settler every 10 turns without caring about shields or food, assumed there's no corruption loss). But when you switch to the medieval ages, the territory rush is over and, heck, I don't need a 4+ food surplus anymore. The cities grow fast enough to the 12 limit with 2 surplus. So I let my workers do an automated "basic improvement" of the land and fine tune it later by hand. Maximal fun with minimal work. I don't seek the perfect game, but just a few hours of entertainment... so what?

EDITed PS: By the way, in the medieval age even automated workers usually make more than your beloved 4-5 surplus, because they irrigate half of the grassland (if possible) and you are probably not a despot anymore, are you?

lawren8 · January 15, 2002, 20:19

I might be silly but,
One of the reasons I prefer to play industrius civs is that
by mideval, you don't have to micromanage your workers
(with 2x efficiency you can afford waste) and the game
is more fun

MrWhereItsAt · January 16, 2002, 05:27

We all know Vels' word is divine, but I feel I have a confession.

Forgive me Vel, for I have sinned against your sublime word! I have Automated!!!

But I have a good reason - I automate ONLY in the "don't delete existing improvements" capacity, in the late industrial era, when I have tonnes of RRs to make. With this button, my army of workers (that outnumbers my military) can get on with their messy spaghetti trails w/out me having to move, Shift-R repeat etc. I have already customized my land to the point where I no longer care what happens to the remaining unimproved terrain (hils and Mts where there is only mines anyway, and endless RRs to build), so I have found that this automation works well.

Sure I could get maybe an extra shield or three - but it is only where you have an empire with resources enough so that one or two extra wouldn't even be noticeable that automation is necessary for avoiding part of the LGT.

Shaka II · January 16, 2002, 22:43

One problem I have with automated workers is that they go to sleep without orders to do so, apparently when there is nothing else to do or during war time, when it is not safe to be out past city walls, they fortify.

A number of times, usually later in the game after railroads have been laid, I notice all my workers disappear (fortified). This isn't too bad although I would prefer to be in the loop to decide if I should forify them or perhaps add them as population to appropriate cities.

Then shortly after, when pollution strikes they don't wake up automatically and start cleaning pollution. To make matters worse, when you try to activate them, usually it says that the turn has ended, requiring you to wait until next turn before the worker can begin work.

I like Sir Ralph's view point here on automation, although I get by (barely) on emperor level (normal size maps), not really using automation until pretty well developed. I think on a large or huge map, automation would be almost a necessity. So, maybe it will cost about a half level in difficulty, but it's a good trade off.

Skanky Burns · January 17, 2002, 02:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaka II
Then shortly after, when pollution strikes they don't wake up automatically and start cleaning pollution. To make matters worse, when you try to activate them, usually it says that the turn has ended, requiring you to wait until next turn before the worker can begin work...

Actually, they DO wake up and clean pollution. Unfortunately the patch changed the maximum number of workers the AI (which controls your automated workers) will put in a single square to 2 for some strange reason. I think it was to stop the AI workers from being as easily mass-captured by the human player. This is great if your a Democratic, industrius nation with pollution on flat terrain as the pollution will be cleaned immediately by the 2 workers, but otherwise you are out of luck. They will either take forever or you will have to manually (find and) send in the workers.

vmxa1 · January 17, 2002, 03:26

At the point that the RR's are done and workers are going to the city to sleep. I disband them and only keep what is needed. This means disbanding scores, a real pain. Why pay up keep for sleeping.

Harovan · January 17, 2002, 11:57

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
At the point that the RR's are done and workers are going to the city to sleep. I disband them and only keep what is needed. This means disbanding scores, a real pain. Why pay up keep for sleeping.

Why disband them and not add to the cities? Unless they are captured workers, but those don't cost upkeep.

vmxa1 · January 17, 2002, 12:41

Why not add to cities? Because you do not need to, the game is over, except for the shouting and most of the cities are loaded, it is just easier to disband. If you want to add them go ahead. it does not matter.

Willem · January 17, 2002, 12:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Why disband them and not add to the cities? Unless they are captured workers, but those don't cost upkeep.

Especially if you have a few conquered cities in your empire. Adding a few of your Workers can help prevent reversions. I like the fact that I can capture swarms of Workers, it helps me build up the populations of my own cities. I had a game where I was capturing up to 4 Workers with every town I captured, and adding them to my own cities went a long way to building up my population base.

pchang · January 17, 2002, 15:10

I add captured workers back to the captured cities and then sacrifice them to build instant military units which then go out and conquer more enemy cities.

DilithiumDad · January 17, 2002, 18:04

AI terraforming is vastly improved in Civ3 over SMAC. In SMAC, cities captured from the AI would need complete re-terraforming. If you automated your workers, your land would just as ugly and deformed as the AI's. In Civ3, I have yet to have to undo any AI civ's terrain improvements.

Harovan · January 17, 2002, 18:11

Quote:

Originally posted by DilithiumDad
AI terraforming is vastly improved in Civ3 over SMAC.

I guess you mean tile improvements like irrigating, mining and road building. In Civ2 (and CtP1/2), there was an extra terraforming, allowing to turn the Alps and the Himalaya into Grassland, provided you have enough engineers and time. I thank God and Firaxis, that this unrealistic crap has been removed. Bury it and don't let it as zombie out of the grave, please!

vmxa1 · January 17, 2002, 21:14

What is unrealistic about leveling hills, we do it all the time in California. Have you seen what Japan has done to the sea to make an airport? I do not mind that it was removed, but it is not that far fetched. It only takes time and money to do.

Thrawn05 · January 17, 2002, 21:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
PS: And never automate anything! Automated anythings do a half-baked job for you....more tedious, but better by far to control them yourself!

I respectfully disagree. I have all of my workers automated (shift+A only) and they do a hell of better job them me.

Dimension · February 6, 2002, 00:01

I find automated workers very useful. No AI control is going to do everything exactly like you want it, but automation definitely has its place.

If you could automate all your troops, you never would. If you ever got to the point that you said, "Man, I've got way to many military units," you would immediately start disbanding them, because they are of little use and cost you support. Workers are very different, though, especially when it comes to stolen workers. Slaves have no cost and require no support, so you might as well get as many as you can.

In general, I will make at most 5 or 6 workers. Once I have stolen about 20, I quickly add the originals back to cities. In the Industrial Age, I get Steam Power first, maybe Nationalization, then straight for Replaceable Parts. By the time I get Steam Power, I've got over 50 slaves, so I can put together rail lines in just a couple turns. When I get Replacable Parts, my workers get stuff done so fast that I have most of my size-12 cities fully improved (all the workable squares with RR + mine or irrigation).

Once you've got your core cities optimized, having a ton of workers can be a REAL drag. If you use Shift-A to automate them (they should make this more obvious with an actual button), they won't screw anything up, so just let them go crazy!

There are a couple places where Civ3 starts to drag. First is when you get Steam Power and have to move massive stacks of workers all around your empire. Second is the whole process of improving all the worked squares of your cities. If it wern't for automation, I would find the mid-to-late portion of the game VERY monotonous.

Later on, I keep 10-20 workers under manual control to improve future city sites. In my current game, I've got 120 automated captured workers milling about my empire. I would not want to be finding things for them all to do, and disbanding them would be a real waste. It's nice to see them trying to keep busy

I just can't help loving free labor. Even after I've got 100 workers, I'll still pay the AI the 20 gold for another one when I see them in the capital.

Of course, this only applies because I use 100% slave labor. If you were using your own workers (in which case you should be playing an Industrious civ), you don't need as many, and you definitely should be controlling them manually and adding them back to new cities when you run out of things for them to do.

Zachriel · February 6, 2002, 09:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
And if I notice one to make nonsense like cutting a forest I just planted, well, I override the automation,

shift-a, and they won't cut existing forests.

At the beginning, I improve tiles that are being used by the city, or that are soon to be used. Of course, irrigation of grasslands doesn't help under despotism, so mine instead. Build a road (ctrl-r) to connect your cities and don't forget to connect the resources. When I reach Republic, a few of those mined grasslands are changed to irrigation and a few hills and mountains are mined instead.

At the point when every used tile is already improved (each city can only use 12), then I automate the workers with (shift-a).

When steam power is invented, I produce more workers, about one per city, who then build a railroad to the capital. Once all the cities are connected, which only takes a few turns, automate (shift-a) again.

By the time you have hospitals built, the rest of your tiles are already mostly developed, so it does not require micromanaging in most cases, except perhaps around your biggest city producers.

Of course, you can always grab a couple if you have a special need.

Willem · February 6, 2002, 12:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

shift-a, and they won't cut existing forests.

No sorry, they will still cut down Forests. The only way I could get mine to stop was to add a mining bonus.

BTW, doing that also means that Railroads will increase production in Forest squares, which I understand they don't now. Almost 2 months now and I still haven't reached that point. Damn that editor!!