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Old February 4, 2002, 19:33   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Pop rushing is when you get out your whip in despotism or communism, and trade population points for increased production. Each population point is worth up to 39 sheilds. This makes it very powerful in building up ancient era armies quickly. And it's a production method that corruption doesn't affect at all.
Sorry, but according to the editor you're wrong, it's only 20 shields.
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Old February 4, 2002, 19:43   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by WFHermans
I am certain it is a stupid question, but what is "pop rushing" units? And it is something the AI can't or doesn't use?
Right-click on any town and it will give you the option to rush-build, or hit the rush button in the city screen. If you are in despotism or communism, the price will be population fleeing the whip. It will tell you first, so you can decide.

I only use the whip near the beginning of the game to build temples, and only sacrifice one pop per town. Normally.
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Old February 4, 2002, 19:45   #123
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Well then the editor is wrong The first population point is worth up to 39 shields, then it switches to 20. You can use "step" rushing for larger builds, bypassing the production decrease. For example, to rush a Knight (70 shields), first rush a Longbowman (40 shields). Then switch to a Knight and rush the rest. Trying to rush a unit or improvement that has just been started (no current shields) doubles the population cost. This isn't a big deal as usually it takes a few turns for a city to grow again anyways, and at least a few shields will be ready before it is time to rush again.
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Old February 4, 2002, 20:47   #124
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It's powerful alright
I too have ammased about 200 units through pop rushing. But, I never do it on anything larger than a standard map. This is because it just gets too tedious. In fact, I pretty much limit my pop rushing games to small or tiny maps. (On tiny maps, I've conquered the world with about 60 units). In fact, to combat the worker tedium, I join them to my pop rushing cities to spped up the rate at which I'm cranking out units. Also, during the last part of the game when I know I'm going to win, I just automated workers. I don't care any more that they aren't being optimally used.

PS You cannot do step rushing. Once you rush, you are forced to build whatever was rushed.
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Last edited by pchang; February 4, 2002 at 20:59.
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Old February 5, 2002, 02:50   #125
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Step rushing works in all my games, the only thing that you can't switch to after rushing are wonders and the palace. It only works up to 39 shields for each population point, not 40. 40 shields will cost 2 population points. For improvements of multiples of 40 shields, just wait a turn inbetween each portion of the rush. At least 1 shield will be added each turn in any city, so that brings it within the 39 shield range.
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Old February 5, 2002, 06:52   #126
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Thanks so much all you generals for explaining this to poor sergeant me....I always got stuck with those faraway cities that had 1 shield production and were 6 large, forever in revolution.
Once I gave away a 6 population city in the middle of my empire to some almost destroyed Persian civ and it dwindled to a one population civ in a few turns. Now I finally understand why.

I also bring this subject up to show a rare event that I first considered another cool AI cheat (and I love them, don't you mes with them Firaxis) but proved to be a bug because it crashed the game (get rid of that, Firaxis!).

Here's what happened. After chasing the Persians all over the map (I play the game not to get "Victory Points" but as a role playing game, the Persians attacked me without provocation so I spent the rest of the Ancient period exterminating them) I finally took their last city, but the Persians were still in the Diplomacy Screen. The next thousand or so years they even made some money by trading maps. It is not clear WHY they were still around, and what units they still had.

Anyway after those 1,000 or so years someone else declared war on the Persians, or the other way round. The Persians were destroyed. Then after loading a saved game, it showed some message about "Cities not correct", AND EVERY CITY ON THE MAP HAD DISAPPEARED! The units were still standing there, costing huge amounts of gold with no support. What had happened....an invasion of UFOs that destroyed each and every city? A plague wiping out all cities? I considered it great fun....but at the end of the turn the game crashed.

So that's why I had to reload, give the Persians a city. After this city was conquered normally and the Persian civ was destroyed in a normal way I had no problems.

So my question, is it possible fo a civilization to live on when it doesn't have a city left? After all they also start the game with no city....
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Old February 5, 2002, 09:00   #127
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WFHermans: This has been discussed a lot elsewhere. After destroying the last Persian city, there must have been somewhere a Persian vessel with a settler. Once the Persians still have a settler, they remain in the game. This vessel seems never to move (I once had a Russian galley 2 tiles from my city for the whole game) and thus can nowhere settle. If the human player sinks that ship, the game is screwed. It's a proven bug in the game. There has been an opinion around, that the AI can sink the ship without crashing the game, but your post proves, that this is probably wrong. The solution - give them a city, sink the ship and take the city back - seems to be the only way out.
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Old February 5, 2002, 09:45   #128
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WFHermans, exactly the same thing happened to me, Japanese were dead finally, than "Failure to laod city blah blah", the savegame was broken. But then patch came out and it fixed it! Cities were back and I finished that game. Do you use a pre-patched version?
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Old February 5, 2002, 12:46   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I think this pretty much proves that the AI values a city based on unseen resources. Just open the save file, negotiate peace with the English. You should be able to get the cities Nothing and Mpondo, but Saltpeter and Aluminum are untradable. They both have unseen resources, there are no other resources on the map.
What do you mean by untradeable? If they have not discovered the tech for that resource, they will not be able to see it themselves. If they only have one of that item, they will not trade it.
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Old February 5, 2002, 12:54   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by WFHermans
I am certain it is a stupid question, but what is "pop rushing" units? And it is something the AI can't or doesn't use?
On the pop rush, it affects the attitude of the remaining pop for a long time. After all, would you want to stay where this is done?
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Old February 5, 2002, 13:09   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by kring


What do you mean by untradeable? If they have not discovered the tech for that resource, they will not be able to see it themselves. If they only have one of that item, they will not trade it.
If you download the save file, you'll see that the cities themselves are called Aluminum and Saltpeter. He named them that to make it obvious that the city had a hidden resource that the AI "shouldn't know" was there because they didn't have the tech. Since they are willing to trade the other cities that genuinely have no resources, but not the cities that have no resources YET, it proves that the AI "sees" resources before the tech is discovered.

It's to prove an "AI cheat" RE: "unseeable" resources; it's not about trading the actual resources.

Ben
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Old February 5, 2002, 13:16   #132
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By untradeable, I just meant that the AI wouldn't give that city up in exchange for a renewal of a peace treaty. I should have said "undemandable", but that just sounds weird
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Old February 5, 2002, 14:35   #133
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poprushing
Aeson,

I understand takin' it slow... that's how I approach my Marla Map game (which I haven't touched in a week).

Let me ask you this: once you're done beating on the AI (or are you never done w/that?), how in the WORLD are you going to keep all those oppressed cities happy ("Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help, I'm being repressed!")? The ones you've been poprushing horsemen and impi out of, I mean. The happiness penalty is cumulative, right? 20 turns of unhappiness per rush?

I think the most poprushing I've ever done was 3 or 4x in one town (temple, library, units, I think). And that town was pissed at me for a long time.

Do you intend to ever switch out of despotism, or no? Once you lose the martial law benifit of garrisons, won't half your cities go into disorder?

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Old February 5, 2002, 14:52   #134
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Yes, the unhappiness would last throughout the rest of the game in most of my pop rushing cities! I built 5 temporary cities that I pop rushed with, the rest were all conquests or demanded from the AI. Those cities needed to be moved anyways, so I'll just end up disbanding them later. No happiness problems after that. I've already disbanded and rebuilt about 2/3rds of the cities, as my army is large enough now to finish the conquest.

I plan on making the switch to republic as soon as the conquest is finished. I would wait until democracy, but the AI has a tendancy to declare war just out of spite, and its too hard to avoid war weariness when the AI won't make peace for 20+ turns.

I got a leader just before I finished Chivalry, and used it to build Leo's. That allowed me to upgrade close to 160 of my Horsemen to Knights, really helped a lot.
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Old February 5, 2002, 15:00   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Yes, the unhappiness would last throughout the rest of the game in most of my pop rushing cities! I built 5 temporary cities that I pop rushed with, the rest were all conquests or demanded from the AI. Those cities needed to be moved anyways, so I'll just end up disbanding them later. No happiness problems after that. I've already disbanded and rebuilt about 2/3rds of the cities, as
Ah. That brings back memories of ol' Papa Joe Stalin.
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Old February 5, 2002, 15:06   #136
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Ahhhh, I understand. Just drop the cities to size 2 and pump out a settler. End of problem. :shakes head and sighs:

160 Knights, yeesh. Watch out for the unit upkeep costs when you switch over to Republic... you've got one helluva big army.

You make the Golden Horde look like a couple of guys on ponies.

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Old February 5, 2002, 15:12   #137
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Many thanks to Aeson for that summary of cheats and counters that we know of so far. It was something I was planning to do when this thread dropped off the screen, so players could have a handy reference. Care to be in charge of doing this again, when all is done, Aeson?

I haven't seen all the cities on a map disappear, as reported by WFHermans, but this had me ROTFLMAO. (Now I finally get to use that abbreviation having just recently found out what it means!). I've had AI's remain in the game after all their cities had been captured and was puzzled by this, so thanks to Sir Ralph for making sense out of what happened.

No one should take my remark about the AI seeming invulnerable to barbarian attacks too seriously, either. I'm sure the AI DO lose a battle now and then to the barbs. However, my Zulu story did not stretch the truth at all, and I stand by it.
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Old February 6, 2002, 06:27   #138
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Thanks Aeson and Sir Ralph for patiently explaining everything. So the surviving civ after losing its last city and subsequent destruction of every city was a pre-patch bug...anyway I would like the civs to live on until each and every city and unit has been taken or destroyed, and even then i would like them to be able come to make a comeback after a revolution, Even civ 1 had this, well that was different though, a civ could spawn a new civ,

Aeson: Do you consider becoming Communist after Despotism?

About the Barbarians, I had some luck fighting against huge stacks too. Maybe because I play only play Regent level where all civs are supposed to produce equally. But it seems they always go after my cities instead of the AIs. Did anyone ever see an AI city sacked by Barbarians?
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Old February 6, 2002, 07:20   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by solo
No one should take my remark about the AI seeming invulnerable to barbarian attacks too seriously, either. I'm sure the AI DO lose a battle now and then to the barbs.
The AI suffers as much from barbarians as players do. I have personally seen an AI city being attacked by a "massive barbarian uprising" of 16 horsemen (restless barbs, IIRC) and taking it down to 1 spearman with 1 hp. I stood with a few swordsman guys nearby, because I just wanted to take the city anyway. It helped me a lot. Note, that all horsies attacked the AI city, no one attacked my soldiers. There's certainly no AI cheat with the barbarians.
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Old February 6, 2002, 07:58   #140
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Communism
I really can't find a good use for Communism that isn't better filled by a different government type. I tend to have larger empires, and corruption is horrendous everywhere in Communism. Having 50%+ corruption in my "producing" cities is just insane. Definitely not worth the shield or two that "worthless" cities will produce. I try to only make one government switch the whole game when not playing a Religious Civ. If I'm done pop-rushing, but still have future wars planned, I like Monarchy. Otherwise the Republic is a good choice. Democracy really doesn't add much, and the threat of extra war weariness offsets its worth. I would have liked to see a government system like that from SMAC migrate to the Civ series, but oh well. As it is, Despotism is used to win the game, Republic/Democracy for score, Monarchy for 'show' (Military Might, Egotism, ie. be the King), and Communism for masochists.
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Old February 6, 2002, 12:42   #141
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Re: Communism
Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I really can't find a good use for Communism that isn't better filled by a different government type. I tend to have larger empires, and corruption is horrendous everywhere in Communism. Having 50%+ corruption in my "producing" cities is just insane. Definitely not worth the shield or two that "worthless" cities will produce. I try to only make one government switch the whole game when not playing a Religious Civ. If I'm done pop-rushing, but still have future wars planned, I like Monarchy. Otherwise the Republic is a good choice. Democracy really doesn't add much, and the threat of extra war weariness offsets its worth. I would have liked to see a government system like that from SMAC migrate to the Civ series, but oh well. As it is, Despotism is used to win the game, Republic/Democracy for score, Monarchy for 'show' (Military Might, Egotism, ie. be the King), and Communism for masochists.
You might try adding your own. There's a thread around where someone has added Fascism. Some interesting ideas that I've incorporated into Dictatorship. It's sort of in between Democracy and Communism, with some of the aspects of a Republic. I've given it to three civs as their prefered government. I haven't played it out yet to see how it works though, no doubt I'll have to do some tweaking.

I've sort of been bouncing around with idea of a Utopian Socialist gov as well, or maybe Democratic Socialist, like some of the European systems. I'm not sure whether the editor gives me enough tools for that though.
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Old February 6, 2002, 13:40   #142
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While I enjoy playing around with the editor, I think for strategy discussions on this board the default rules should be used. Otherwise we end up with "Hoplite Offensives Rock! Why use them for defense?" type threads where everyone goes WTF!?!?! because they don't know that the poster has switched his Hoplite's stats to 15/3/5. Even smaller changes have a subtle effect on overall strategy that over the course of a game make for huge differences... it's chaos theory. When posting on this board, I just assume the default rule set and judge strategies accordingly.
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Old February 6, 2002, 13:54   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
While I enjoy playing around with the editor, I think for strategy discussions on this board the default rules should be used. Otherwise we end up with "Hoplite Offensives Rock! Why use them for defense?" type threads where everyone goes WTF!?!?! because they don't know that the poster has switched his Hoplite's stats to 15/3/5. Even smaller changes have a subtle effect on overall strategy that over the course of a game make for huge differences... it's chaos theory. When posting on this board, I just assume the default rule set and judge strategies accordingly.
Well terribly sorry for offering a suggestion that might make the game a bit more varied.
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Old February 6, 2002, 14:35   #144
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I'm sorry if that sounded like I was insulting your suggestion, that wasn't what I meant at all. A great part of Civ 2 was the easy customization of the game, though I haven't done much so far with the Civ 3 editor. I just initially thought you were commenting on my analysis of the in game governments instead of the SMAC reference.

The SMAC system I refered to was an in game system. Through different advances you were able to change social, scientific, economic, and military agendas that would affect commerce, military abilities, research, and environmental interaction. It's been a while since I've played, but I think there were 4 options in 4 categories or something like that. Giving 256 different combinations that would make up the social system. Granted that only a handful of the combinations were truely useful, but still it was fun to experiment with. The Unit Workshop had even more options, ranging from armor, weapons, the base unit type, powerplant, and special bonuses. Literally thousands of possible unit designs were available.
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Old February 6, 2002, 14:58   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I'm sorry if that sounded like I was insulting your suggestion, that wasn't what I meant at all. A great part of Civ 2 was the easy customization of the game, though I haven't done much so far with the Civ 3 editor. I just initially thought you were commenting on my analysis of the in game governments instead of the SMAC reference.
I just got the impression that you were hoping for more options and made a suggestion that might offer you one. A new government form is one thing that the default editor will let you add, so you don't have to be limited to just two modern ones.

Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson

The SMAC system I refered to was an in game system. Through different advances you were able to change social, scientific, economic, and military agendas that would affect commerce, military abilities, research, and environmental interaction. It's been a while since I've played, but I think there were 4 options in 4 categories or something like that. Giving 256 different combinations that would make up the social system. Granted that only a handful of the combinations were truely useful, but still it was fun to experiment with. The Unit Workshop had even more options, ranging from armor, weapons, the base unit type, powerplant, and special bonuses. Literally thousands of possible unit designs were available.
Yes I'm familiar with SMAC. My favourite part was the workshop. I did a lot of experimenting with unit abilities, and had a lot of fun in the process. I've been tempted lately to go back to playing that again.
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Old February 23, 2002, 17:23   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solo


In one of my own games I had a small island to myself. Just three tiles of it were beyond by borders, one of them containing a horse resource. The AI made a beeline for this but ignored the other two. Just as an experiment, I replayed part of that game, and parked a warrior on that tile early on, but left the other two wide open. None of the AI bothered with those other two. Backtracking again a few times, whenever I left the horse tile open, it was snatched up quickly by one of the AI, instead of either of the resourceless tiles.

In another game, where I was on a small island, I had an iron resource on it away from my borders, and sure enough, that was the unclaimed portion of the island that the AI went after first with their settlers.


Quote:
Originally posted by Zachriel


The AI will settle all available spaces on the map, including what many may not consider promising terrain. It is important to spread your culture umbrella over every possible square of the map.
This is exactly the problem. I once was on a large island by myself. I had killed off (VERY early) the other two civs on the island.

The boat of another civ camie around the hook of my island, rather far away from the two open spots. I immediately covered the two open spots with warriors and the civ boat turned around! Even though there was no way for it to "see" that I had open land. In fact, the next turn I moved one of my warriors warrior off the empty spot and the civ boat turned back around and made a B-line for the open land.

I made sure I hadn't shared my maps with anyone and none of the civs had been to that part of my island. It seemed like the AI civs, know instantly where all available spots are on your land. But you have to sail meticulously half way around the world to discover empty spots on their land.

The above tactic could be used to a slight advantage, though. Every turn I would alternately move the warrior on and off that one square of land. The AI civs would keep turning around their boats every turn. I had three boats from three different civs held up this way, while I calmly sailed my galleys out to discover new islands to settle.
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Old February 24, 2002, 13:58   #147
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Yes, when the AI do something tricky, you can often use their very predictable behavior to your own advantage, or for your own amusement, too! In the long run, they end up losing out by trying to take advantage of their extra knowledge.
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Old February 27, 2002, 00:34   #148
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Tricky - or stupid??

Since 1.17 did not correct that Culture Flipping garbage (a town flipped with a garrison of ten units) I still have to raze. The instant I raze an enemy town/city nearby civs dispatch settler/pikemen teams to that spot even if they are at war with me!!!

So not only do some civs know stuff they should NOT know, but the one whose city was razed is so idiotic it keeps sending those settler/pikemen teams right into my military to get destroyed. I did that three times in a row (the stupid AI never learns) before it got so boring I quit the game in disgust.


Oh yes, this just happened. The instant I discovered Literature a few other civs began either demanding it or offering me insane extortionate deals for it (Territory Map for Literature). Not only should they not know I have it, but they shouldn't insult me with these ridiculous deals.

That crazy AI.

I'm going back to 1.16.
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Old February 27, 2002, 09:02   #149
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Quote:
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Tricky - or stupid??

Since 1.17 did not correct that Culture Flipping garbage (a town flipped with a garrison of ten units) I still have to raze.
Many players, including myself, are able to manage culture. It may be your playing style. There are a variety of strategies to counter flipping, which have been posted in other threads.
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Old February 27, 2002, 11:43   #150
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Imelstar,

Here's an idea, if you want to take advantage of the AI "must build more cities... any scrap of land will do... must build more cities" mindset:

Punch out a few privateers. Keep them in a coastal city near a spot that isn't worth settling. Move your warrior (or whatever) off the open spot. See AI send ship. Sink ship with privateer. Repeat. If your privateers get beat up, put the warrior back on the spot until you've healed them or built more. The AI will continue to build those settler teams, put 'em on boats, and send 'em around the world to settler that spot. It's not really going to drain them much, but it could be fun.

On culture flipping: I haven't had it happen once with 1.17. Razing is often the way I go, but for different reasons. They fixed the poprush/draft unhappiness penalty, but the AI still whips and drafts like a madman. You inherit that unhappiness when you take a city. So I tend to raze cities unless they have wonders, or I've been able to blitz them before the AI starts drafting.

-Arrian
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