REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

Kickasso · January 14, 2002, 17:10

Dear Players.

I decided to post this message because of weak historical knowledge of Firaxis guys. It's a pity when I see an excellent idea spotted with inks of history ignorance. I think it could be helpful for us both to release Apolyton civ3 pack with real names of each civ heroes as well as for Firaxis and probably it's civ4... Also I just asking your help and knowledge to complete my own mod where only REAL HEROES NAMES will present for each civ.

That was an overture - now only necessary info

Idea: Heroes are not mostly "branded" people from each nation (such as Anna Kurnikova as an example of Russian hero - Hey Sid! Why not btw

). They also not a rulers or dictators who didn't have any military records (such as Lenin in Russia).
They are either Warlords Kings of Ancient times or Victorious Generals - in accordance to the rules of Civ3 they command army (not capital or village). I think we need no more than 8 heroes for each civ.

Real Heroes for Russians (chronological order):

1. Svyatoslav (King of Ancient Rus' who once seized and captured Constantinopol of Byzantium in VII century)

2. Alexander Nevsky (Prince of Novgorod who defeated Swedish expedition on Neva river and crushed Teutonic Crusaders on Chudskoe lake in legendary "Ice Carnage" in XII century. Canonized as a Saint)

3. Dmitry Donskoy (Prince of Moscow who defeated Mongols after 300 years occupation and begun liberation of Rus' in XIV century)

4. Ivan The Terrible (Grozny) (King of Russia who seized and captured two Tatarian cities on Volga river - Kazan and Astrakhan in XVII century, and open Siberian exploration period for Russia)

5. Peter The Great (First Imperor of Russian who defeated Swedish invasion in "Poltava battle" and won several sea battles in Baltic sea in addition to their well known achievements for Russia in XVIII century)

6. Alexander Suvorov (Most victorious Russian commander - first Field-Marshal in Russia. Author of "Science of Victory" book - Russian analogue of Sin Tzu's treatise. Won several battles against Osmanian Imperia and lead Italian Liberated expedition against France in XVIII century)

7. Mikhail Kutuzov (Disciple of Suvorov, Kutuzov as a General have one very impressive record - "Borodino battle" against Napoleon and as the final of that war liberation of Paris in XIX century)

8. George Zhukov (Russian General in IIWW who organized Moscow defence, commanded in Stalingrad operation and captured Berlin in XX century)

That's it. Please mark that I didn't include in the list Stalin, Lenin and famous Naval commanders (such as Nakhimov and Ushakov who also canonized as a Saint) due to 8 most victorious person cap.

Please do the same for all other civs (are there any Ancient Greeks or Egyptians here?

)

I've seen the same heroes info about China (from IamChinese folk here on forum) and probably from someone else. I fully understand hard work needed to find Persian, Iroqious, Aztecs and Egyptian heroes but if anybody could help here - that would be great!!!

Thanks in advance and I hope Apolyton and Firaxis teams find it very helpful to apply in future mods/civs/games.

Pfanner · January 15, 2002, 08:29

For Germany:

Karl Martell(totally underrated) He stoped the invasion of the Arabs in 700

Friedrich II. (the great) Prussian King 1740.

Erwin Rommel (WW2) War in Africa

Guderian or Manstein 2 generals in ww2(but u wouldn't say heros)

Karl the Great, the first German Kaiser at 800

Some Siencetist or great Artist:

Johann Wofgang Goethe, Friedrich Schiller, Einstein, ludwig van Beethoven, Wehner von Braun, Oppenheimer , etc

Manstein3 · January 15, 2002, 16:18

well, for Germany, if only warriors to be named:

- 7 p.CHR. Arminius, or Hermann the Cherusker, who destroyed three Roman Legions in the Battle of the 'Teutoburger Forest'. The Romans gave up all land east of the Rhine because of that and never came over the loss of their legions.

- ~800 Karl the Great, or Charlemagne, as the French call him. (At that time, France and Germany were united in Karls Franconian Empire. France is named after it, as well as Franken, a German province.
Karl conquered Saxon, Friesen, a part of Spain, the kingdom of the German tribe Langobarden in the later Lombardy (in Northern Italy). The Pope declared him follower of the Roman Caesars, he made a peace treaty with Konstantinople, ...

- ~1200 Friedrich I 'Barbarossa', lived in Sicily, conquered and owned an Empire between the Northern Sea and Sicily

- Friedrich II the Great ~ 1770 made the Prussian army the best in the World, fought a successful war (though much luck) allied to Britain against Russia, Austria, France, who were twenty times superior in numbers.

- 1810 Gneisenau, first who was equal to Napoleon in strategic mastership

- 1940 Guderian: Creator of the tank weapon as a decisive strategic tool (maybe his luck was being the first one of an elite club of generals going to war: de Gaulle had the same ideas in France, but could not get over First-World-War-concepts of the French Marshalls, Zhukov had same ideas, but the Sovjet army also used tanks as tactical, not strategical weapon, Patton had the same ideas, but was sitting on his back somewhere in Arizona waitin to be needed...)

- Manstein 1940: great strategist, made the plan of the France-Offensive and several masterly handled battles in Russia against a 10 times superior enemy.

Kickasso · January 15, 2002, 17:14

So I put all mentioned German heroes in the following chronological order (8 heroes limit):

1. Hermann the Cherusker - VII BC century
2. Karl Martell - VIII century

3. Karl the Great - IX century - BUT I'M NOT ACTUALLY SURE IF HE BELONGS TO GERMANY OR TO FRANCE - AS I KNOW KARL WAS FROM GERMAN TRIBES AND LATER BECAME A FOUNDER OF FRANKS KINGDOM - FRANCE FIRST KING BUT HE GAIN THE GLORY AS A GERMAN WARLORD... Am'I right or wrong here?

4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa' - XIV century
5. Friedrich II the Great - XVIII century
6. Gneisenau - XIX century - I completely agree to include him into the list - that was a time of great battles across the Europe
7. Manstein - XX century - Also agree. Russians had many problems with his tactical ideas during WW2
8. Rommel OR Guderian - I can't distinguish who's more victorious or famous of them? Please you select who will be nominated on last position.

Thank you all for your great efforts and interesting info (I didn't know about Martell (only tasted same name cognac

) but heard something about Arminius.

Any info about British, France, Roman Warlords?

Manstein3 · January 15, 2002, 18:52

about Karl Martell and Karl the Great: I agree in the important role of the first. I hesitated though to put him on a list of German warriors because despite of the fact that he was of Franconian, Germanic blood, the centre of his kingdom lay in the later France:in Reims, Soissons, Paris, Orleans and Tours.
He somehow created the split between France and Germany because he gave the West ('France': Neustrien, Burgund, Provence) to his son Pippin, and the East ('Germany`: Austrien, Schwaben, Thüringen) to his son Karlmann. Bavaria and Aquitania they shared, Saxon they conquered...
Karlmann resigned later. Pippins son Karl the Great had the united kingdom again. But now the centre was far more east, at the Rhine, in Aachen, Trier, Köln, Mainz. Therefore he is with better arguments to be named a German than a French king. The definite split cam after Karls death: a West-Franconian kingdom was declared and an east-Franconian kingdom...

Rommel was a great tactical troop commander with individual bravery.
Guderian was almost the same bold panzer-Raider, but he had the idea of panzer-Raids. so somehow he's superior, I think.

France had Vercingetorix, a brave, but unsuccessful leader against the Roman conquerors. They have Karl Martell and Charlemagne. (some of them may claim them, I think).
Cardinal Richelieu, quite unique, was a (un)famous diplomat and got provinces without battles, for example paid the Swedish to wage war (30 years war) against the German Kaiser, then got the land west of the Rhine easily because of the weakness of the Holy Roman Empire, vulgo Germany.
Napoleon.
Well, after that, the French weren't so lucky in battles...
de Gaulle

The British: Albin, who defeatet the Danish-Viking invasion around 500, I think. William the Conqueror, a Viking who finally succeeded... at 1066.
1588 Admiral Francis Drake defeated teh spanish Armada: Beginn of British naval power and Empire, beginning of the end of Spanish Empire...
Cromwell, who defeatet the Scots 1648, but was generally a civil war hero.
1805 Admiral Nelson (at Trafalgar) defeats Napoleons Navy, prevents an invasion of England.
1815 Wellington (along with the Prussian Generals Gneisenau and Blücher) defeats Napoleon at Waterloo.
The British Generals of the First World War are all infamous because of their habit to expose thousands and thousands of pathetic infantry men without shelter the machin guns of the enemy. No military genius in the First World War, on no side of the trenches...

Second World War. Despite Montgomery and the fact that Churchill was never leader in command I would vote for him, because of his crucial decisions to spare the British fighters, not use them in the Battle of France and the German Bombing Offensive. This prevented the invasion of Britain!

Romans?
Caesar, who conquered Gallia and was a genius in warfare and a charismatic leader.
many many others. difficult to decide who s most important

have to think about it...

Manstein3 · January 15, 2002, 20:37

Arminius' 'victory in the Teutoburger Forest was 7 post Christum, in the year seven after Christs birth, not in the VII. century BC

Harovan · January 15, 2002, 21:54

For Germany:

I would suggest not to take Hitler's generals. They may have made good strategies like Manstein, Panzer tactics like Guderian or simply be a good military leader like Rommel (even the British respected him), but somehow it's not right though.

I would replace them with Scharnhorst, Blücher and/or Lützow, who were also great military leaders in the war against Napoleon. Or what about Moltke?

molly bloom · January 15, 2002, 22:40

Great British/English heroes?

As reflects the U.U., a naval list should come first- starting with Alfred the Great. Then we could skip forward to Elizabethan times, and Sir Francis Drake, Lord Howard of Effingham, Martin Frobisher and John Hawkins.

Then the Parliamentary/Restoration forces, with George Monck, Duke of Albemarle, Admiral Robert Blake, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, and Admiral Sir William Penn.

As for WWI commanders, I do think T.E. Lawrence deserves at least a mention for the daring attack on Aqaba, and for inspiring the revolt in the Hejaz. Similarly, Field Marshal Sir Edmund Allenby, for his campaign against the Ottomans in the Middle East.

Field Marshal Slim and Major-General Orde Wingate are also notable for the Burmese/Indian campaigns in WWII.

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 05:56

Thank you all for necessary comments. So I think finalized German Heroes List will be the following:

1. Hermann the Cherusker - I century (thank to Manstein3 for mark)
2. Karl Martell - VIII century
3. Karl the Great - IX century (I think it's correct to consider him German Hero)
4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa' - XIV century
5. Friedrich II the Great - XVIII century
6. Gneisenau - XIX century
7. Manstein - XX century (I really think what military leaders always out of political states)
8. Guderian - XX century (beat Rommel in competition for last nomination)

Special thanks to Sir Ralph for comments and new names. I don't know anything about Moltke - what special about him?

For France (remember I don't consider leaders without strong military records such as Richelieu or Mazarini - they are political folks)

1. Vercingetorix -
2. Charlemagne -
3. any Joan d'Arc's times leaders ??? if anybody know
4. Napoleon
5. De Gaulle
6 Any more?...I can't believe France have only 4 heroes for it's history. What about America's exploration period, Chivalry period and Valua dynasty?

For British (it's difficult situation due to my idea of excluding naval commanders - in Civ3 only ground armies have leader (btw does anybody seen naval leader appearance in civ3). But British history has many naval heroes such as Drake, Nelson... What I suggest to do is to try to collect ground generals first and add naval admirals then.

1. Albin - VI century
2. William the Conqueror - XI century
3. Richard "Lion Heart" - First crusade's hero
4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace (if I spell it right) - Scottish Hero with some valuable military records (remember I'm out of politic)
7. George Monck - also more military records needed
8. Wellington - agree

Comment: Despite Churchill's important role in WW2 I don't think he could be nominated (as Stalin). He is neither victorious general nor warlord...sorry...he probably could be nominated as a Civ Leader replacing Elizabeth in next Civ4

Special thanks to molly bloom for interesting names and records

For Romans (Caesar's role is to be a Civ Leader):
1. Trajan
2. Claudius
3. Anthony
4. Octavian
5. Diocletian
6.7.8...
any more? (I think I need to find Ancient History Schoolbook)

Japan, India and China - where are you? I almost don't know about you...

Kickasso

Harovan · January 16, 2002, 06:30

Why do you thank me for suggestions, if you completely ignore them?

About Moltke: Helmuth Graf von Moltke was the Chief of the Prussian (later German) General Staff (a Prussian invention) in 1858-1888, in a time where Germany was very successful in European wars, especially against Austria and France. He also was a good theoretic of warfare.

EDIT about British: How can you dare to forget about field marshal Bernhard Law Montgomery?

He was the born military leader. See http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/docs/monty.htm . It would be a sin not to take him. Churchill is, of course, out of question.

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 07:17

To Sir Ralph

Heh, you're right about Monty (now I can't ignore you

anymore) - my fault

So corrected British list is:

1. Albin - VI century
2. William the Conqueror - XI century
3. Richard "Lion Heart" - XIII century
4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace - XIV century
7. Wellington - XIX century
8. Montgomery - XX century

I quite accept that #4 & 5 could be replaced with Drake & Nelson if any guarantee of Naval Army creation in Civ3

Wow! 3 civs almost completed...not bad

Thanks

Harovan · January 16, 2002, 08:09

Good! What a relief

Also note, that the German hero "Karl the Great" and the French "Charlemagne" are the same, so make sure they don't appear for both nations.

EDIT: Did I really post "they"? I meant "he", as it's the same person.

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 08:43

Right Ralph! I missed that about Charlemagne.

Corrected France Heroes List (few heroes)

1. Vercingetorix -
2. ??? -
3. any Joan d'Arc's times leaders ??? if anybody know
4. Napoleon
5. De Gaulle
6 Any more?...I can't believe France have only 4 heroes for it's history. What about America's exploration period, Chivalry period and Valua dynasty?

Kickasso

hetairoi22 · January 16, 2002, 12:57

Roman - Scipio Africanus. Won famous victory versus the Carthaginian leader Hannibal in the battle of Zama (202 BC) and thus ended the Second Punic War.

-------------------------------
Roman - Laelius, Gaius "d. after 160, BC
Roman general and politician who contributed to Roman victory during the Second Punic War (218-201) between Rome and Carthage.

Owing his political advancement to his friend, the renowned commander Scipio Africanus, Laelius accompanied Scipio on his Spanish campaign (210-206). While in Africa with Scipio from 204 to 202, Laelius defeated the Numidian prince Syphax, an ally of the Carthaginians, and commanded the cavalry in Scipio's decisive victory over Hannibal at Zama (now in Tunisia; 202). After the war Laelius advanced from aedile (197) to praetor (196) to consul (190). In 160 he met Polybius and supplied the historian with a great deal of information about the life of Scipio Africanus.

quote from "Encyclopedia Britannica".
---------------------------

Roman - Corbulo, Gnaeus Domitius Roman general who restored Roman control over Armenia in 47 AD.
---------------------------

Roman - Arbogast "d. Sept. 8, 394
barbarian general of the Roman Empire, the first to establish a Roman nominee of his own as a puppet emperor.

Probably of Frankish descent, he rose to the rank of magister equitum ("master of the cavalry") in the Western Roman army and was sent by the emperor Gratian, in 380, to assist the Eastern ruler Theodosius against the Goths in Thrace. He remained in the service of Theodosius. In 388, after the defeat in Italy of the usurper Magnus Maximus by Theodosius, Arbogast recovered Gaul for the Western emperor Valentinian II from Maximus' son, Flavius Victor. The following year Arbogast pacified the Rhine frontier, imposing a treaty on the Frankish leaders Marcomer and Sunne, who had invaded Gaul in 384.

By 391 the general had become all-powerful in Gaul as comes ("count") and regent. When Valentinian attempted to dismiss him, Arbogast declared that only Theodosius possessed the power to do so. On May 15, 392, Valentinian died at Vienna (modern Vienne, Fr.) in circumstances suggestive of murder instigated by Arbogast. Proclaiming Eugenius, a professor of rhetoric, as emperor in the West, Arbogast--who admired the Roman Republic and despised the quarrels between Roman Catholic and Arian Christians--set about restoring paganism. In the winter of 393-394, he conducted a successful campaign against the Ripuarian Franks, the Chamavi, and along the Rhine, but the following May, Theodosius marched west to suppress the pagan revolution. A two-day battle ended in victory for Theodosius. Eugenius was beheaded; Arbogast committed suicide. " -quote from "Encuclopedia Britannica"

SOme Ideas for Roman generals.

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 15:34

Thanks, hetairoi22 for detailed review of Roman war history

Updated Roman Heroes List is the following now:

1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Gaius Laelius
8. Arbogast

I have some doubts about #4 & 6...If more famous or victorious candidates appear I think I could replace them

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 16:26

Update for France:

1. Vercingetorix
2. St. Louis IX
3. Philip Augustus
4. Charles V
5. Raymond St. Gilles
6. Napoleon
7. De Gaulle
8.

If no more heroes appears I think I'll make exception for France and put Roland in this list

Kickasso · January 16, 2002, 16:32

I need your help for Iroquios, Aztec, Indian & Japanese Heroes!!!

Rosacrux · January 16, 2002, 16:49

Some Greek heroes:

- Achilleas (the legendary warlord mentioned in Homers Iliad, great warrior and greater lover... the Greek way of course

)

- Leonidas (the King of Sparta, the one who led 300 Spartans and 700 Thespians against an army of 500.000 and died in full glory among his men).

- Pericles (the head of the Athenian state, the "Golden Age" of the Athenian Democracy named after him. Not a warmonger, but in his times the Peloponesian war started)

- Themistokles (the man who invented the Greek navy - the same man who managed to lead a fleet of 300 triremes that exterminated the might of the great Persian warfleet)

- Belisarius (a great military leader, Greek by no doubt, fought for Justinian and reclaimed the Italian peninsula and north Africa for the Byzantine empire)

- Basil Bulgaroctonos (the great leader of Byzantium, who managed to defeat all the enemies of the empire and restore it's former glory)

- Kolokotronis (the greatest hero of the Greek revolution after 1821, led the struggle for Greek independance)

- Pavlos Melas (the greatest hero of the Macedonian Wars in the early 20th century. Led the Greek troops who defended the Greek province of Macedonia against the Bulgarian invaders).

If you need more, just ask...

Plan Austral · January 16, 2002, 18:15

I hope this is useful, if you want i can ask in civfanatics to same people about chinese leaders.

And excuse me, i know my english sucks.

Persian Leaders.

Cyrus the great-
he unified the different persian tribes to form the persian empire, he conquered Lydia and Babylon.

Cambyses II-
Son of Cyrus the great, for a while he was the satrap of Babylon, but when his father died he became the ruler.
His biggest achieve was the conquest of Egypt.

Darius the great-
He was the successor of Cambyses II,he conquered the Indus Valley (half of India), Thracia and the greek cities in the turkish coast.

Itaphrenes-He killed the Magi Gaumata and helped Darius to became king,(It is a large story), after Darius accession, many satrapies revolted, including Babylon, Itaphrenes suppressed the revolt. After that he became the second most important man of the kingdom, Darius later killed him becouse Itaphrenes was just to powerful.

Datis- One of the most important Persian generals of Darius, he was the one who participated in the Battle of Marathon.

Mithrades- Parthian king (something like the secon persian empire), he conquered media, elam and babylon.

Shapur- sassanid(sp?) king,It would be like the third persian empire after the parthians.During his wars against Roman emperor Gordian III was killed, and emperor Valerian was captured! completely humiliating Rome.

Megabazus, another persian general of Darius, he fought against the scythians, he conquered some cities in Thrace and conluded a treaty with Macedonia wich became a vassal kingdom.

molly bloom · January 16, 2002, 21:06

1. Albin - VI century
2. William the Conqueror - XI century
3. Richard "Lion Heart" - XIII century
4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace - XIV century
7. Wellington - XIX century
8. Montgomery - XX century

Sorry, but who is Albin in the 6th Century in English/British history?

Although I have reservations about listing William the Conqueror as an English/British hero, I feel that Richard the Lionheart would be better replaced by a more successful king and commander- such as Edward I, Edward III, Henry V. Richard was rarely at home during his reign, and also present/responsible for some decidedly unchivalrous behaviour in the campaigns in the Holy Land.

Now as to the maritime heroes, my reasoning went along the lines that after the Hundred Years' War, and more especially after the loss of Calais during the reign of Mary Tudor, English disengagement from the continent meant that success/expansion had to be sought overseas, whether through a policy of (im)plausible deniability under Elizabeth I, or through aggressive expansion as part of government policy, under the Republic/Commonwealth and later under William and Mary, and Queen Anne and the Hanoverians. This being the case, the naval heroes tying in with the English U.U., seemed a reasonably good choice.

Thus:

George Monck

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/people/A0833687.html

As much a survivor and politician as Talleyrand in France, and an able commander, both at sea and on land.

See also http://members.tripod.com/~Strathbog...r_article.html

his part in the victory at Dunbar over the Covenanters, and his formation of the Coldstream Guards.

molly bloom · January 16, 2002, 21:29

4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace - XIV century

Lord Admiral Howard was commander of the English Fleet that defeated the Armada:

Nottingham, Charles Howard, 1st earl of,

1536-1624, English nobleman. A member of one of the branches of the Howard family, he succeeded his father as Baron Howard of Effingham in 1573. He was first cousin to Queen Elizabeth I, to whom he rendered distinguished service-military, naval, and civil. Appointed (1585) lord high admiral, he commanded the English fleet that defeated the Spanish Armada (1588) and shared command (with the 2d earl of Essex) of the expedition against Cádiz (1596). He was created (1597) earl of Nottingham and in 1599 was given command of both land and sea forces. Nottingham continued his service under James I, remaining lord high admiral until 1619.

Martin Frobisher, explorer, sometime privateer, and naval commander during the Armada:

http://www.pbs.org/empireofthebay/pr...frobisher.html

Frobisher, Sir Martin , 1535?–1594, English mariner. He went to sea as a boy, and spent much of his youth in the African trade. He later gained the friendship of Sir Humphrey Gilbert, through whom he became interested in the Northwest Passage. Licensed by Queen Elizabeth I and backed by a group of merchant adventurers, Frobisher made three voyages (1576, 1577, and 1578) to the arctic regions in search of the passage. On his first voyage he sailed into Frobisher Bay to S Baffin Island, and from its shores brought back some black ore thought to contain gold and an Eskimo to prove his belief that he had actually reached fabled Cathay. Returning to Baffin Island on his next two journeys, he explored Frobisher Bay to its head and penetrated a short distance up Hudson Strait. Since his geographical discovery was slight and no gold was revealed in his cargoes of ore, Frobisher's name was discredited for a time. However, he won new glory in 1585 as commander of a ship in Sir Francis Drake's expedition to the West Indies and was knighted for his services with Drake and Sir John Hawkins in the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588. He died as the result of wounds received at Brest during an English campaign against the Spanish. The narratives of his voyages, first published in 1578, have passed through several editions. The Three Voyages of Martin Frobisher by George Best was edited from the original 1578 text by Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1937).

Out of respect to the Scots posters, I should point out that William Wallace is not an English hero....

'With the phenomenal success of Stirling Bridge under his belt, Sir William Wallace, Guardian of the Realm of Scotland, continued his campaign of guerilla warfare upon the Northern English counties.'

from http://members.aol.com/skyewrites/menu8.html

Dr. Nick · January 16, 2002, 21:32

Japanese- Yamamoto? Tojo?

For the French, what about Leclerc if you're falling short on them?

Germans- I don't see why you can't use successful generals of the Wermacht during the 3rd Reich period. They were generals, they were successful and many of them were war heroes. What about Schlieffen? von Tirpitz or von Spee could be an idea (pity he as an Admiral so he doesn't really count).

English- Cromwell? Harold I? Alfred the Great? Monty (not Python!

)? You could also even add William of Orange to the list of English heroes, as he lead the "Glorious Revolution" if I'm not mistaken. We could even add whoever commanded the troops that burnt Washington in the war of 1812.

EarnhardtFan · January 16, 2002, 22:42

For My games, I fill the list of German heroes with Generals from World War II.

Deity Montezuma · January 17, 2002, 03:31

For Aztec

1.Cuauhtemoc
2.Cuitlahuac
3.Moctezuma not Montezuma
4.Tizoc
5.Itzcoatl
6.Huitzilihuitli

Or if you are like me i traded the Aztec's for the Mexican's.
The leader's names are

1.Agustin De Iturbe (1st pres. of Mexico)
2.Miguel Hidalgo (father of the independence)
3.Benito Juarez (the battle against the invading french on the 5th of may ocurred)
4.Pancho Villa (Revolutionary hero)
5.Emiliano Zapata (Revolutionary hero)
6.General Santa Anna
7.Maria Morelos

This is a quick list..

Harovan · January 17, 2002, 06:57

Quote:

Originally posted by El Awrence
Germans- I don't see why you can't use successful generals of the Wermacht during the 3rd Reich period. They were generals, they were successful and many of them were war heroes. What about Schlieffen? von Tirpitz or von Spee could be an idea (pity he as an Admiral so he doesn't really count).

Although I don't like it much, I'd agree with Manstein, Rommel and may be Guderian, they were great generals, but would vehemently complain if anybody would call Reichsmarschall Goering (Chief of Luftwaffe and one of Hitler's inner circle), Sepp Dietrich (Leader of the SS division Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler") or others alike "German heroes". About Schlieffen: If you need a leader from the German imperial period, rather take Helmuth Graf von Moltke, he at least won his campaigns. Schlieffen was not very successful with his WWI strategies. Von Tirpitz and von Spee were naval leaders and IMHO are out.

OT (edit): Heck, did anybody have 8 leaders in his games? I often play with militaristic trait and had at most 3 or 4 in a game (don't remember exactly, as they don't have a long life expectancy in my games).

Kickasso · January 17, 2002, 09:16

Great work friends! I hope this discussion helps very much to rank and evaluate each civ heroes in a history (I respect Sir Ralph's position of 3rd Reich period of Germany as a grieved page of it's history - the same feelings I sometimes have for communism period in Russia

but I repeat - I completely out of politic and have only one criteria - military records, mostly victorious)

why I ask for 8 leaders: I experienced that on huge map for the whole period of history I often have 6-7 leaders (not all of them survive till the end of game

) and thus I decided that 8 will be quite enough for all civs (even military)

To Deity Montezuma: Thanks for your list (I see 2 of heroes unknown for me completely - Cuitlahuac & Moctezuma). I think I will also include in final 8 heroes list 2 mexican heroes if nobody mind

Aztec's Heroes Preliminary List:
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma not Montezuma
4. Tizoc
5. Itzcoatl
6. Huitzilihuitli
7. Benito Juarez
8. General Santa Anna

To El Awrence: Thanks for suggestions. Leclerc could fit France list. Regarding William of Orange - I really doubt if he is English not Ireland and general not political figure...

Thanks to molly bloom for detailed review of British history. After it I would like to release newer list for British

Latest British Heroes List:

1. Albin
2. Alfred the Great - IX century
3. William the Conqueror - despite his origin England count him as a hero
4. Richard the Lionheart - 100% warlord king
5. Edward - I decided not to select Edward III or Edward I "Longshanks" - just Edward
6. George Monck - XVII century
7. Wellington - XIX century
8. Montgomery - XX century

Regarding Albin - "...Albin, who defeatet the Danish-Viking invasion around 500, I think..." read the post above from Manstein3.

Special thanks to Kublai-Khan & Rosacrux for Persia and Greek Heroes List

Thus Initial List for Persia:
1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Itaphrenes - but he's military records are questionned
5. Datis
6. Mithrades
7. Shapur - was not victorious unfortunately.
8. Megabazus

My only question was Sargon a Persian or Assysium King?

Base List for Greek:
1. Achilleas - If Illiad was a real chronicle
2. Leonidas
3. Pericles
4. Themistokles - only problem of his naval records, not ground victories
5. Belisarius
6. Basil Bulgaroctonos
7. Kolokotronis
8. Pavlos Melas

I think there are many more heroes were in Ancient Greece...Could you mention little more.

7 Civs almost completed! Carry ON!! and thanks again for your efforts, friends

Kickasso

Kickasso · January 17, 2002, 09:19

Latest France Heroes List:

1. Vercingetorix
2. St. Louis IX
3. Philip Augustus
4. Charles V
5. Raymond St. Gilles
6. Leclerc
7. Napoleon
8. De Gaulle

Is it OK or any more corrections/critics/adds

Rosacrux · January 17, 2002, 10:36

Well, yes of course there are more great leaders or heroes in the ancient Greek world, but by giving you those 8 names I just wanted to make sure that a)the whole span of Greek history (and not only ancient Greece) would be represented and b)that you get the most outstanding guys.

About Achileas... well, yes, there is this little question about the accuracy of the Iliad (the ransack of Troy IS a historical fact, see Sleemans work) and the names it contains.

Problem is, if you take him out, you leave a large portion of Greek military history (the Achean era) without representation.

Viables alternatives for the ancient era (instead of Achilles and Themistokles) :

Dionysios of Syracusae, the man who leaded the great city-state of Syracusae at it's peak, created a little empire, defeated Karthago etc. etc.

As a viable alternative, for the ancient times, you can use Pyrrhos, the King of Hepirus who invaded the Italian peninsula, beated the Romans, but had to return due to the lack of adequate forces before ransacking Rome (hence "Pyrrheus victory" - the victory you have to pay for with great losses).

He was also the first to use war elephants in the "West"

Or you could try Andiochos the Great, a leader of the hellenistic kingdom of the Seleukides, famous for his many military feats.

...the list is really endless.

But, please, keep the proportion 4 ancient - 2 Byzantine - 2 modern Greek. It's representative to the whole span of the Greek history.

Plan Austral · January 17, 2002, 12:37

We can change Shapur and replace him with Chosroes II
He was the biggest enemy of the byzantine empire until the arrive
of the arabs, he conquered Syria, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus and Rhodes.And for 8 years it seemed as if the Achaemenian empire was restored.In 627 byzantine emperor Heraclious reconquered his lost possessions.

Sargon was the first man who reunified all mesopotamia, he was akkadian.He wasnt persian or assyrian. And his empire existed 2.200 years before Jesus, maybe he qualifies for the Babylonians, becouse in the game they include all the mesopotamian cultures.

We can replace Itaphrenes with Sha Ismail,of the safavid dinasty, to have a leader of the muslim persia.
His original reign was in Azerbaijan and he conquered a territory that extended from Herat in Afhganistan to Bagdad.

Kickasso · January 17, 2002, 12:40

Well Rosacrux there is the sense in your words...

I only would like to include Pyrrhos as the one of the most victorious warlords of an Ancient Greece

So I propose the finalization of Greek Heroes List as:

1. Achilleas - I decided to put him on without any doubts of his legendary origin by Illiad - I have very strong feeling that it's real hero (hope that's true)
2. Leonidas
3. Pericles
4. Pyrrhos - replace for Themistokles (he's naval hero as Nelson, Drake, Ushakov etc and thus must be excluded)
5. Belisarius
6. Basil Bulgaroctonos
7. Kolokotronis
8. Pavlos Melas

Agree?

Proportion as you desired 4-2-2. Thanks again!