REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[Kickasso]

To Cossack (hope you're know how to spell your nick on russian right? :P ) - thanks for stories especially for 2nd one.

I remind that I take only Great Kings of Ancient times or glorious generals to the list (not even admirals because I haven't seen naval battles victory with leader appearance out of ground yet...)

According to your suggestions I redesign British Heroes List to the following (including Henry V - Battles of Crecy and Agincourt against the French):

1. Boudicea
2. Alfred the Great
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward (just Edward )
6. Henry V
6. George Monck or James Wolfe - vote please
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

Kickasso

[burak]

C'mon guys, Vercingetorix and Boadicea were celts, not English or French (such nations didn't existed yet.)
Why don't you place Attila in russian leader's list, he was from somewhere in Russia, didn't he?

And polish leaders in my opinion:
Boleslav the Brave (conquered Bohemia and Slovakia for some time)
Henry the Godfearing (great battle with Mongols)
Vladislav Small (reunited Poland)
Vladislav Jagiello (defeated Teutonic Knights)
Stephan Batory
Stefan Czarniecki
Jan III Sobieski
Jozef Pilsudski

[Kickasso]

Burak, thanks for Polish Heroes List. If Poland will present in next Apolyton Mod I going to be included.

Regarding Attila - what a rubbish! He is absolutely neither Russian nor Slavic guy - if he possibly (I'm sure he's not) was burn on slavic lands he can be slavic by birth - I didn't see or hear any info regarding it. Also his name doesn't have slavic roots - he might been Hun by birth but I'm not quite sure.

Regarding Vercingetorix - its really hard subject. From other side he's claimed as Celt, from Other as from tribe lived of modern france territory...Anyway I need more info of him

Kickasso

[Manstein3]

About Celts you have to take into account that it is only a name.
Ancient Gallia was obviously celtic. The France found in the early Middle Ages must have had a celtic population also, because Romans were not that numerous (upper class which dissapeared quickly as soon as conditions changed) and the Franconian (German tribe) emperors were also inferior in numbers.
So the French are a celtic nation, with small German elements (Frankonian, and later, Viking (Normannen --> Normandie))
Same is Wales and Scotland (? not sure) in Britain, and Ireland: all celtic. In Spain, there are too some Celtic roots still alive, I think.

[Manstein3]

I forgot the conclusion:
Therefore one can propose reasonably that Vercingetorix is a French war hero.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Roman (base):
1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Gaius Laelius
8. Arbogast

Kickasso

I would try to put in that list:

Romulus (the legend want him to be the funder of Rome)
Costantine (the first Christian emperor)

Saluti

Saluti

[Kickasso]

Right, Manstein3, I think I agree with you completely regarding Vercingetorix.

To Giovanni August: Thanks for Romulus and Costantine - they're unfortunately not a military heroes ( I take only warlords and generals )

Today or tomorrow I will present Japanese list. Cya

[Dr. Nick]

Kitchener - new person but I need more info about him to rank

"K of K" (Kitchener of Khartoum) is probably the most recognisable of all British generals of this period (colonial period). He served lengthily in Egypt before becoming Sirdar of the Egyptian army in 1892 and he wrested power of Sudan from the Mahdists definetly after Omdurman (1899). In 1900 he was appointed to South Africa where his organisational skills and indefatigable energy proved crucial... Two days after the declaration of war (WWI) he was appointed Secretary of State for War and for the next year and a half virtually ran the British War effort. He was featured on Alfred Leete's WWI recruitment poster. When leading an effort into Russia, he was lost at sea when his transport struck a mine. His death was regarded as an appalling calamity by the public. Mortimer Menpes thought him a hard and noted that everyone fell silent when he appeared: "No officer in the entire British Army is held in such mortal fear."

Henry V (Battles of Crecy and Agincourt against the French)

Didn't those happen a century from each other?

Churchill (Second World War)

Not really commanding an army.


About Boadicea, I agree that if you have to supress generals in the colonial period (Kitchener or those guys who conquered India) it would be better to eliminate her altogether as she wasn't even "english". I'd say that the oldest you can go for an English military leader is Alfred the Great.

[Kickasso]

Oh..that a problem with those British

I offer the following final British List after all comments/suggestions:

1. Alfred the Great
2. Richard the Lionheart
3. Edward I 'Longshanks'
4. Henry V
5. George Monck
6. James Wolfe
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

Kitchener, Robert Clive, Churchill, Boudicea, Nelson, Drake, Wallace, William the Conqueror - gone out during 'competition' by various reasons

[Ecthy]

Neither Karl Martell nor Charlemagne should be German leaders, they're French leaders.

Use some Otto guy instead (German emperor from middle ages), and maybe some Karl guy

and then:

Blücher
Moltke
Rommel

there were 2 Moltkes anyway... one was the great hero of 1870/71

[Ecthy]

read great hero in quotation marks

[alskdj80]

It really seems like all the Chinese have disappeared from this forum... I sometimes check in my limited free time but rarely post. However, I can't help posting here, I'm just afraid that another list of Chinese leaders are going to include non-Chinese people again...

I can't be considered as a historian, so take my words for minimal worth. Some of my info comes from unreliable sources, so someone had better check up on it.

Anyways, if I were to list historical Chinese leaders...
Han Xin - general under founder of Han dynasty
Sun Bin - general/strategist in state of Wu during Warring States period
Sun Tzu - general/strategist in state of Ch'i during Warring States period (well, he wrote the book didn't he?)
Zhang Liang - strategist under founder of Han dynasty
Zhuge Liang - strategist under Liu Bei in the Three Kingdoms period
Wei Qing and Huo Qubing - generals under Han Wudi in the Han dynasty
Sima Yi - strategist under Cao Cao in the Three Kingdoms period, and his sons eventually

I know I'm forgetting others... there must be generals in the Tang dynasty and the Qin (or Ch'in) dynasty (which is different from the Chin dynasty, which was controlled by the Manchurians)...

Anyways, I dunno if you actually want to add some emperors to the list... I mean, some of them probably spent most of their free time warring... and besides, I think Napoleon is on the lists? Pretty simple actually, just add the emperors or leaders (not generals) I mentioned... Han Wudi, Liu Bei (actually, not that great of a candidate, if you ask me... ), Cao Cao, Liu Bang (the founder of Han, so I'd say he's important), and add others like Tang Tai-Zong, Qin Shi-Huang, Xiang Yu (another secondary candidate)... just a short list...

Just to clarify... first list are generals, second list are emperors/leaders... the modern people are more known than the ancient ones, so I won't bother...

Better double check... and edit the list... I have a strong feeling that something is missing... just something to get started with...

[macaskil]

Since Firaxis includes Wallace in their "English" heroes I suggest we look at all heroes from the British Isles, whether Anglo-Saxon or Celtic.

English

Alfred the Great (held off Danes)
Athelstan (defeated Scots and Vikings)
Edgar Aetheling (threw out the Danes)
Edward I (beat Scots and Welsh)
Hereward the Wake (guerilla fighter against William the Conq)
Henry V (Agincourt)
The Black Prince (Crecy)
Drake (Armada)

British (ie 1603-)

Cromwell (not a hero to the Irish - but see below)
Monk (Civil War)
Marlborough (beat French)
Wellington (Waterloo)
Montgomery (El Alamein)
Churchill (leader rather than Hero -and descendant of Marlborough)
Lawrence (only Brit hero in WWI?)
Bader (disabled WWII Spitfire pilot)

Celtic

Boudicca (slaughtered 000's of Romans)
Arthur (if he existed)

Welsh

Llewellyn (last Welsh native prince)
Glyndwr (led revolt in 14th C)

Irish

Brian Boru (defeated Danes)
Michael Collins (hero to Republicans if not Unionists)

Scottish

Macbeth (not really a villain; first Scots king to visit Rome)
David I (Scotland extended to the Tees; he also founded monasteries and chartered cities)
Wallace (natch)
Bruce
Thomas Randolph
The Black Douglas(these last 2 were Bruce's generals)
Leslie (Civil War)
Montrose (Civil War - possibly the best military leader in Scots history)
Lord George Murray (Jacobite general - never lost a battle until Culloden)

For a laugh we could have some disastrous leaders such as

Edward II - lost at Bannockburn
James IV of Scotland - lost at Flodden from a winning position
James II - lost throne through political and military incompetence
Bonnie Prince Charlie - pointless campaign
any WWI general
any Crimean War general
any Boer War general
any American Revolution general esp. Braddock
any of the fundamentalist protestant Scots leaders (though God was telling them what to do....)
the Brit general at New Orleans
Admiral Byng (shot for failing to pursue the enemy)
Charles I - lost his head in a crisis!
Mary Tudor - lost Calais and failed to secure England for Catholicism by not executing Elizabeth
Mary of Scots - similar story; let her heart rule her head and then lost the latter
Edward VI - lost the 100 years war

I'm not sure where to put Harold. He beat the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, marched 300 miles then nearly beat the Normans. In civ3 terms had to fight on 2 fronts dozens of squares apart and nearly won.

[macaskil]

Before anyone points it out Braddock was a disastrous general in the war against the French, not the American revolution.

[Dr. Nick]

any Crimean War general

RAGLAN!
RAGLAN!
RAGLAN!
RAGLAN!
RAGLAN!
YAY!

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Right, Manstein3, I think I agree with you completely regarding Vercingetorix.

To Giovanni August: Thanks for Romulus and Costantine - they're unfortunately not a military heroes ( I take only warlords and generals )

Today or tomorrow I will present Japanese list. Cya

Oh I see!
Nevermind!

Saluti

[molly bloom]

About France's heroes....

here's a link to Vercingetorix, and a good sampling of Celtic history. Brittany is a 'Celtic' nation, and has a surviving Celtic language, literature and culture. France does not- in the same way that Cornwall has a small corpus of Celtic literature, and a distinctly Celtic history. Thus, both Boudicca and Vercingetorix should be included in the Celtic list of heroes, rather than included in thelist of heroes belonging to the states that succeeded the Celtic kingdoms.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...4/rixmain.html

Vercingetorix could easily be replaced with Marshal Turenne, one of France's ablest military commanders ever, and hardly ever defeated in the course of the Thirty Years' War and the war with Spain.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6750/turenne.htm

A Thirty Years' War site:

http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm

You might also consider Marshal Foch as a French hero.

http://www.worldwar1.com/biocfoch.htm - which Leclerc is being referred to on the FRench list?


As for the Egyptian hero from Islamic times, I would suggest either the Mameluke, Baybars, victor over the Mongols at Ain Jalut, or Salah ud Din:

Baybars:

'Egyptian Mameluke general, who commanded the army that defeated the Mongolians who had invaded Palestine, at the Battle of Ain Jalut (the modern En Harod) in 1260. After halting the Mongolian army and wresting the Holy Land from the Crusaders, he initiated several projects which made an important contribution to the country's development.

The threat of another Mongolian invasion led him to set up an efficient communications network, which relied on mounted messengers. The establishment of this postal system necessitated the building of roads, and the construction of bridges and waystations for rest and changing horses. The postal system thus contributed to the improvement of roads and security throughout the country.

In addition to his civil engineering works, Baybars also undertook construction for religious purposes - the renovation of the Dome of the Rock, and the allocation of an annual sum for its maintenance, the renewal of the state-provided food for poor pilgrims visiting the Temple Mount, the Cave of Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs), and other sites.

His approach towards Jerusalem was a purely practical one; since it was a distant city with no political importance, the postal system did not reach it. He initiated the construction of a khan (inn) to the west of the city, where poor people could lodge and receive meals free of charge. '

and Saladin, who supplanted the decadent Fatimids in Egypt, and began the Ayyubid Sultanate:

http://members.tripod.com/~snowlion2/slahadin.html


Salah ud Din (Takrit, Iraq 1138- Damascus 1193)

'First Ayyubid sultan, and famous for having recaptured Jerusalem from the Crusaders.
Saladin was of Kurdish heritage, and at the age of 14 he started in the service of the Syrian ruler, Nur ud-Din. He started to show his qualities under 3 campaigns against the Crusaders who were established in Palestine. The first was in 1164 and the last in 1169. In 1169 Saladin served as second to the commander in chief of the Syrian army, his uncle Shirkuh. Shirkuh became vizier of Egypt, but died after only 2 months. Saladin then took over as vizier. Despite the nominal limitations to the vizier position, Saladin took little regard to the interests of his superiors, the Fatimid rulers. He turned Cairo into an Ayyubid power base, where he used Kurds in leading positions.
Saladin managed to revitalize the economy of Egypt, he reorganized the military forces and he started serious military actions against the Crusaders. Saladin suppressed the Fatimid rulers of Egypt in 1171, whereupon he united Egypt with the Abbasid Caliphate, but was not as eager as Nur ud-Din to go to war against the Crusaders, and relations here became very difficult.
When Nur ud-Din died in 1174, Saladin used the opportunity to extend his power base, and during the next 15 years he conquered many important cities: Damascus, Syria in 1174; Aleppo, Syria in 1183; and Mosul, Iraq in 1186.
With his new strength he attacked the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187, and after 3 months of fighting he got control over the city. With this, the Crusaders only had control over the coast. A third Crusade of 1189 only managed to enlarge the coastal area of Palestine. Following an armistice agreement with King Richard 1 of England of 1192, the Peace of Ramla, the whole coast was in Christian hands, while Jerusalem remained under Muslim.'

[Bautou]

To Giovanni August: Thanks for Romulus and Costantine - they're unfortunately not a military heroes ( I take only warlords and generals )

Actually, if you're gonna include Octavian (who mostly relied on Agrippa to fight his battles), then Constantine would be an even better fit. Constantine essentially fought his way to power by winning over his army and becoming essentially a powerful warlord.

When he attacked Maxentius for control of Western Rome, Constantine's forces where outnumbered by a factor of between 2 and 4-1. He smashed Maxentius' forces at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (where the famous message from God occurred) and later similarly broke Licinius' forces in the East. He also fought many successful campaigns against the various Germanic tribes in the north and was often acclaimed by his troops. Basically, he owed much of his power to his victories, much like many of the Roman military heroes.

[Dr. Nick]

bloom- I had also thought of putting Salah ad Din as an Egyptian hero, but it would compare to putting Will the Conker as a British hero too.

After all, he conquered Fatimid Egypt. It's not as if he was Egyptian.

[Kickasso]

Ok..lot of new names, suggestions, and discussions

I would like to propose the following lists according to your posts:

Chinese Heroes List: (thanks to 'alskdj80' - hey what do your nick mean? )
1. Han Xin
2. Sun Bin
3. Sun Tzu
4. Zhang Liang
5. Zhuge Liang
6. Wei Qing
7. Huo Qubing
8. Sima Yi

Only problem - no one from modern period (Chan Kai Shi is not the case here). I would appreciate if anybody suggest one. Thanks again, 'alskdj80'!

Special thanks to macaskil for Detailed Albion Heroes review but I don't see any proper replacement for my base list (probably Athelstan instead of James Wolfe but I'm not sure who's best ...)

British List is the same:

1. Alfred the Great
2. Richard the Lionheart
3. Edward I 'Longshanks'
4. Henry V
5. George Monck
6. James Wolfe
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

France Corrected List: (thanks to molly bloom again! )

1. Vercingetorix
2. St. Louis IX
3. Philip Augustus
4. Charles V
5. Raymond St. Gilles
6. Marshal Turenne (instead of 'weak' Leclerc)
7. Napoleon
8. De Gaulle

Also thanks for Egyptian Heroes but Salah ud Din is not egyptian and Baybars despite he's not modern one hero could fit to the final list so:

Egyptian Heroes List:
1. Na'rmer
2. Weni
3. Mentuhotep II
4. Senusret
5. Kamose
6. Tuthmose
7. Ramses
8. Baybars

Also thanks to Bautou for Roman history correction (Constantine is included)

Roman Heroes List:
1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Arbogast
8. Constantine

Sorry for delay with Japanese list - some urgent work. Hope to post it tomorrow!

[Dr. Nick]

Ramesses II! Kadesh! The Hittites!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by El Awrence
bloom- I had also thought of putting Salah ad Din as an Egyptian hero, but it would compare to putting Will the Conker as a British hero too.

After all, he conquered Fatimid Egypt. It's not as if he was Egyptian.

I take your point, but the Arab armies that supplanted Byzantine rule of Egypt were not 'Egyptian' either, and by the time of Salah ud Din, it was simply a case of one co-religionist replacing a decadent dynasty with revitalizing one. As opposed to the Norman French usurpation of an Anglo-Saxon dynasty- which of course led to a change of political allegiances, and a linkage with the continent that would not cease until the surrender of Calais under Mary Tudor. Baybars too was non-Egyptian, in the sense that he was a descendant of Turkish mercenaries, but Egyptians view both Baybars and Salah ud Din as heroes, so I took my cue from them. I've always had a soft spot for Salah ud Din- someone who seems to personify chivalry much more than that smelly crusading Angevin lout, Richard I......

[Dry]

My contibution for the French:

Vercingetorix: Is ok, because at school they learn about their 'ancestors the Gauls' and they consider Vercingetorix as one of them...
Asterix, is an alternate

Middle age period, I don't know so well, but St Louis was as far as I remember no great military leader.
So, I would say rather: Francois 1er

Godefroi de Bouillon: Unlike Philippe Auguste and/or Richard I, he was able to take Jerusalem.

Surcouf: The french Francis Drake

La Faillette: should I explain?

Massena, Ney, Cambronne: I don't know if the later was a great general, but he became famous in France by answering 'Merde' to the English who asked him for reddition (Compared to this, the 'Nuts' of Gnl MacAuliffe in the Ardenne seems very polite)

MacMahon: hero of the Criman war, but also victor at Magenta (small city in North Italy... and color of the French in civ3...).

Clemenceau, Foch: WW1

and of course...DeGaule.

...and today: Jose Bové

[Rosacrux]

An interesting figure, nevertheless. And one many civilizations could claim as a hero:

- Kurds He was born a Kurd, by ancestry.

- Arabs Being the head of the Fatimid dynasty (founder too? I think) and his general stance should label him an Arab - actually a great choice for the leader of an Arab civ.

- Turks He was raised in a Turkish court, as a follower of a Turkish sultan, after all.

- Egypt The center of his Khalifate.

Oh, isn't history nice when you can't tell who is who?

[Kickasso]

Dry, thanks for France list corrections

So France Heroes List is now:

1. Vercingetorix (AKA Asterix )
2. Philip Augustus
3. Godefroi de Bouillon (instead of Charles V )
4. Raymond St. Gilles
5. Marshal Turenne
6. La Faillette
7. Napoleon
8. De Gaulle

others are not well known unfortunately...

Promised Base Japanese List:
1. Motonari
2. Nobunaga
3. Katsuie
4. Takeda
5. Tadatsugu
6. Uesugi
7. Yomashita
8. ...someone from modern ages???

Kickasso

[Dr. Nick]

Modern Japanese? Tojo, Yamamoto...

Yeah yeah, so they were admirals, sue me

[alskdj80]

hey what do your nick mean?

Lol, nothing at all... an attempt to stay anonymous... not really working though... most ppl can probably tell that I'm Chinese (or Taiwanese), but living in North America (cuz I don't have strange english, i hope??)... the 80 part is because Yahoo advised to add 80 after alskdj... i think cuz i put my bday to be 1980?? (which it isnt)... but anyways...

Only problem - no one from modern period (Chan Kai Shi is not the case here). I would appreciate if anybody suggest one.

Try Sun Chung-Shan... called the father of modern China... I think in Cantonese dialect its Sun Yat-Sen... but since you're doing China and not Hong Kong, better to stick with the mandarin spelling (although I personally think its closer to Sun Zong-San, but )

On a side note... yeah, I thought Ramses II was more important than Ramses... whoa, Constantine as a top 8 Roman leader? I dunno... I mean, there should be a reason why he isn't included as the last 'good' emperors, shouldn't there?... I'd rather vote for Marcus Aurelius, and its not just because of Gladiator, hehe... just suggestions, I'm not going to get into any detailed argument, mostly because I don't know enough about the subject to argue, but from what i know...

But yeah, seriously, don't thank any of us... great job to you trying to compile a list that is actually historically "correct", instead of that kindergarden list from Firaxis... I think the only thing that was missing in the Firaxis list to make it a complete joke would be seeing Napoleon as an Aztec... they must have come pretty close to adding him there, seeing how their other selections were ridiculous...

[Kickasso]

Constantine had some military records (not a bad ones - see previous post)

Sun Yat Sen as I know wasn't military at all ...need another folk

LAST 2 CIVS TO COMPLETE: Iroqs and Babylonians

Iroquios - no info at all ...I mean who is real Iroquios from this list:

Tecumseh
Red Cloud
Black Hawk
Sitting Bull
Crazy Horse
Geronimo

Babylonians:
Sargon
...

[Harovan]

Vercingetorix was Celtic, no French (Frankonian). What about taking one of the Merowingian kings instead? But they weren't much military though.

Godefroi de Bouillon is an excellent choice! Is the spelling correct (are there native French around?). What about adding the inventor of the Guillotine? I know he was a physician and not a military leader, but his invention killed more people (esp. in the end of the XVIII century) than much army leaders slaughtered in the battle

[Plan Austral]

There are lots of great generals and conquerors for the mesopotamian cultures, i will try to make you a list for tomorrow.