REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[Bautou]

Babylonians:
Sargon

Perhaps some of these guys:

Ensha.gkushanna (the period is just to stop the auto-censor ): Earliest known Babylonian ruler, conquered Kish and ruled over southern Babylonia.

Eannatum: Conquered and enslaved Gishban, and brought in large amounts of spoils

Naram-Sin: Sargon's son, invaded the Sinai and Cyprus, extending his father's conquests even further

Chedorlaomer- Conquered everything between Babylon and Palestine

Nabuchodonosor- Defeated the Lulubi, Elam, and conquered portions of Syria

Gudea- Conquered Ansham

Zaggisi- Plundered and conquered his way from the Persian Gulf to Mediterrean


As an aside, I don't think that Arbogast is the best choice for a Roman hero. In Roman sources contemporary with him, he is almost invariably refered to as a foreigner and his power was generally resented. Probably a better choice could be one of the following: Germanicus: subdued the Rhineland and conquered Germany to the Elbe. Sulla: won a brutal civil war and became one of the first important Roman dictators. Pompey (or Lucullus)-conquered much the East for Rome

[Taxidopolis]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Ok, Manstein I replace first British hero to Boudicea even despite her legendary origin. I suppose she was a real person of Celts history

Just to reassure you that Boudicea was a real person. Queen of the Iceni tribe she united a pan-tribal revolt against the Roman occupation in AD 60/61 after she and her relatives were brutalised by the Romans. Tacitus records her and the exploits of she and her followers are also recorded. The trail of destruction she left behind is visible today in the archaeological record, modern day Colchester in England was where they started...it was the local capital which they completely sacked before heading and reaching London to have an equally vengeful time there. The rebellion came within an inch of Roman withdrawal from the province.

The preferred spelling is actually Boudica btw. Whoops, that should have been one c in Boudica, hence the edit...must have been shaking after being trashed by Shaka when I posted ;-)

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Godefroi de Bouillon is an excellent choice! Is the spelling correct (are there native French around?).

I am.
Godefroi or Godefroid can be written both way.
I think Godefroid is the spelling of today, while Godefroi is the spelling of Middle-Age.
The name comes in fact comes from Dutch: God Vriend meaning God's friend.

edit: I am not French, but french is my first language.

[Rosacrux]

I think Vercicendorix is not a good choice for Franks... He is just a poor Gaul after all

Why not Clovis, he was the first Frank leader, the first King, had some prominent military feats to speak for himself and generally should be a good leader choice.

Thoughts?

[Kickasso]

Thanks a lot, Bautou for short Babylonian history review!

Thus Base Babylonian Heroes List is:
1. Ensha Gkushanna
2. Eannatum
3. Sargon
4. Naram-Sin:
5. Chedorlaomer
6. Nabuchodonosor (not well-victorious from Bible thougth)
7. Gudea
8. Zaggisi

No persons from moderm ages due to early twilight of civ life...

Vercicendorix - is a hard decision according to much criticism here...What I personally think of him? I think he's much more famous than others despite non-french origin...If nobody mind I will leave him. If you insist - Clovis will be a replacement.

Iroquios...where are you?...
Japanese...

N.B. Romans...
Roman Heroes List:
1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Arbogast OR Pompey OR ...
8. Constantine


We are closer to the end. Soon I post complete list and our hard work will be completed!

[Plan Austral]

I agree with the list
but i think that Asurbanipal (dont know how to write him in english) must be in the list.

For modern times what do you think of

Saddam Hussein

[TacticalGrace]

Playing as the Romans I got a leader called Maximus.

Was this a great Roman leader or are the people at Firaxis a bit keen on "Gladiator"?

[Cossack]

Kickasso,

I see the English still have this guy George Monck, Earl of whatever. Who is he anyway, I've always been interested in English history but I have never heard of Monck before. So I did some general searches on the internet and zippo. So I went to that site that someone suggested and found some info there, but in no way is Monck a great leader, probably a brave soldier and intelligent diplomat but not the winner of any great victory that had long-lasting effects on the British Empire. Therefore I would replace him with one of the other suggested heros.

Nazdaroviye

The English Cossack

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cossack
Kickasso,

I see the English still have this guy George Monck, Earl of whatever. Who is he anyway, I've always been interested in English history but I have never heard of Monck before. So I did some general searches on the internet and zippo. So I went to that site that someone suggested and found some info there, but in no way is Monck a great leader, probably a brave soldier and intelligent diplomat but not the winner of any great victory that had long-lasting effects on the British Empire. Therefore I would replace him with one of the other suggested heros.

Nazdaroviye

The English Cossack

I have to disagree- he was at Dunbar, which was the battle that broke the power of the Scottish Covenanters- after that, Scottish Protetants were no longer in a position to challenge the English Republic, or the restored monarchy of Charles II and his successors. He was also commander in the Anglo-Dutch Wars, which saw the rise of British naval power, both commercially and militarily, at the expense of the Dutch and the French, thus establishing the basis for the British Overseas Empire. Combine his land victories over the Royalist forces in the English Civil War, with the foundation of the famed Coldstream Guards under Monck, and you have more than just a brave soldier, but an able commander at land and sea, and someone who, like Talleyrand in France, could literally keep his head whilst others were losing theirs.
I felt it was necessary to have someone from the 17th Century, who epitomised the period of the foundation of the British Empire, and who also had a naval as well as land command- thus George Monck fitted the bill.

[Cossack]

Monck isn't even a well known hero for your average Englishman, and as for him being such an able commander here is an extract from the linked article you linked:

George Monck
English soldier and politician. He took part (1625) in the disastrous expedition against Cádiz and fought against the Spanish in the Netherlands. After service in the Bishops' Wars, he was given a command in Ireland and was there when the English civil war began (1642). He returned to England to fight for Charles I, was captured (1644) at Nantwich, and was not released until 1646.

Doesn't appear so able for around at least 20 years and as for subding another Scottish rebellion, who cares? During that period there were numerous Scottish uprisings up to the last one at Culloden and no doubt he subdued did it with the kind of ruthless streak that Cromwell displayed in Ireland.

Let's stick to the real colonial heroes such as Wolfe and Clive of India, whose military successes laid the foundations for England's colonial expansion in North America and India, respectively.

The English Cossack

[Kickasso]

What to do with George Monck?...

I basicly agree to replace him and offer two candidates instead of him to the final list: Boudicca or Montrose ;-)

1. Boudicea
2. Alfred the Great
3. Richard the Lionheart
4. Edward I 'Longshanks'
5. Henry V
6. James Wolfe (or Montrose)
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

I would like to draw your attention to Iroquious and 1-2 persons for Zulu, Japanese, Babylon and other civs. Please revise the list below again and finalize your ideas of add/replace/wipe/kick anyone

Fanfare!

The final (almost) list of CIV3 civs Heroes:
-----------------

Roman Heroes List:
1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Arbogast OR Pompey OR ...
8. Constantine
------------------

Babylonian Heroes List:
1. Ensha Gkushanna
2. Eannatum
3. Sargon
4. Naram-Sin:
5. Chedorlaomer
6. Nabuchodonosor
7. Gudea
8. Zaggisi
-------------------

Iroquios Heroes List:
1. Tecumseh
2. Red Cloud
3. Black Hawk
4. Sitting Bull
5. Crazy Horse
6. Geronimo
7.8....Manitu, help us your mindless children!
--------------------

Japanese Heroes List:
1. Motonari
2. Nobunaga
3. Katsuie
4. Takeda
5. Tadatsugu
6. Uesugi
7. Yomashita
8. ...someone from modern ages???
--------------------

France Heroes List:
1. Vercingetorix
2. Philip Augustus
3. Godefroi de Bouillon
4. Raymond St. Gilles
5. Marshal Turenne
6. La Faillette
7. Napoleon
8. De Gaulle
--------------------

Egyptian Heroes List:
1. Na'rmer
2. Weni
3. Mentuhotep II
4. Senusret
5. Kamose
6. Tuthmose
7. Ramses
8. Baybars
--------------------

Chinese Heroes List:
1. Han Xin
2. Sun Bin
3. Sun Tzu
4. Zhang Liang
5. Zhuge Liang
6. Wei Qing
7. Huo Qubing
8. Sima Yi
---------------------

German Heroes List:
1. Hermann the Cherusker
2. Karl Martell
3. Karl the Great
4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa'
5. Friedrich II the Great
6. Bluecher or Moltke - you vote please
7. Manstein
8. Rommel
---------------------

Persian Heroes List
1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Surenas
5. Mithrades
6. Chosroes II
7. Sha Ismail
8. Megabazus
---------------------

Zululand Heroes List:
1. Nehanda
2. Dingane
3. Cetshwayo 'Mpande'
4. Ntshingwayo
5. Nongalaza
6. Dabulamanzi
7. Prince Mbilini
8. is still a question...Help here!
---------------------

Indian Heroes List:
1. Chandragupta Maurya
2. Bindusara
3. Ashoka
4. Shivaji
5. Smadragupta
6. Chandragupta II
7. Porus
8. Tilak
----------------------

Yankee (ok..ok..I'm not going to jeer at Americans at all)
1. Washington
2. Grant
3. Lee
4. Sherman
5. Jackson
6. MacArthur
7. Patton
8. ??? - your ideas (Rivere, Lafaette, Powell )

I personally suggest Sid Meier without any joke - he's really deserve it as my gaughter says. Only prob is his military records but can we make an exclusion for him?


----------------------

Greeks Heroes List:
1. Achilleas
2. Leonidas
3. Pericles
4. Pyrrhos
5. Belisarius
6. Basil Bulgaroctonos
7. Kolokotronis
8. Pavlos Melas
----------------------

Aztec (Mex) Heroes List:
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma
4. Tizoc
5. Itzcoatl
6. Huitzilihuitli
7. Benito Juarez
8. General Santa Anna
------------------------

Russian Heroes List:
1. Svyatoslav
2. Alexander Nevsky
3. Dmitry Donskoy
4. Ivan The Terrible
5. Peter The Great
6. Alexander Suvorov
7. Mikhail Kutuzov
8. George Zhukov


P.S. Nice to see your avatars, friends ...

[Cossack]

Kickasso,

I'd go for Boudiccia we need an ancient hero even if it is a Celtic hero. Shame Civ III doesn't have the Celts that would solve the argument.

Cheers

The English Cossack

[Kickasso]

Cossack, I put British Heroes List destiny in your hand - see the most detailed list (by Macaskil) and select one to complete it
-------------
British/Irish Heroes

Since Firaxis includes Wallace in their "English" heroes I suggest we look at all heroes from the British Isles, whether Anglo-Saxon or Celtic.

English

Alfred the Great (held off Danes)
Athelstan (defeated Scots and Vikings)
Edgar Aetheling (threw out the Danes)
Edward I (beat Scots and Welsh)
Hereward the Wake (guerilla fighter against William the Conq)
Henry V (Agincourt)
The Black Prince (Crecy)
Drake (Armada)

British (ie 1603-)

Cromwell (not a hero to the Irish - but see below)
Monk (Civil War)
Marlborough (beat French)
Wellington (Waterloo)
Montgomery (El Alamein)
Churchill (leader rather than Hero -and descendant of Marlborough)
Lawrence (only Brit hero in WWI?)
Bader (disabled WWII Spitfire pilot)

Celtic

Boudicca (slaughtered 000's of Romans)
Arthur (if he existed)

Welsh

Llewellyn (last Welsh native prince)
Glyndwr (led revolt in 14th C)

Irish

Brian Boru (defeated Danes)
Michael Collins (hero to Republicans if not Unionists)

Scottish

Macbeth (not really a villain; first Scots king to visit Rome)
David I (Scotland extended to the Tees; he also founded monasteries and chartered cities)
Wallace (natch)
Bruce
Thomas Randolph
The Black Douglas(these last 2 were Bruce's generals)
Leslie (Civil War)
Montrose (Civil War - possibly the best military leader in Scots history)
Lord George Murray (Jacobite general - never lost a battle until Culloden)

------------

Final List (these heroes are confirmed):

1. Alfred the Great
2. Richard the Lionheart
3. Edward I 'Longshanks'
4. Henry V
5. James Wolfe
6. Wellington
7. Montgomery
8. ...

But please explain your decision.

[Tingkai]

Guderian should be in for German heros. He invented the blitzkrieg, he was a brilliant tactical leader, a great leader of men, and he was one of the first generals in WWII to lead from the front lines instead of from HQ in the back. In short, his contribution to German military history is far more significant than Manstein or Rommel.

[Tingkai]

For the Iroquois (North American Indians) add Louis Riel who led two rebellions against the Canadian government.

Also Joseph Brant, the Iroquois leader during the American rebellion.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Maximus Decimus Meridius
Playing as the Romans I got a leader called Maximus.

Was this a great Roman leader or are the people at Firaxis a bit keen on "Gladiator"?

There was a general with that name in the Roman Empire!
But actually that General was living about 200 years before Emperor Commodus! So the movie is not really historically accurate!
And many others things are wrong!

Saluti

Ps
Really cool movie, I loved it

[Dry]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Guderian should be in for German heros. He invented the blitzkrieg, he was a brilliant tactical leader, a great leader of men, and he was one of the first generals in WWII to lead from the front lines instead of from HQ in the back. In short, his contribution to German military history is far more significant than Manstein or Rommel.

What you say is true, but I see Guderian more like a leader than a hero. Rommel was more a hero.
And between you and me, I don't know much about Rommel but what I know about Guderian makes him not look like a 'good guy' to me. Guderian was a pure prussian general. Did you ever read some of his memories? It reveals the character.
Even if he was one of the few to argue with Hitler's decissions, at the end he obeyed to all what Hitler decided, just because Hitler was the boss and you never disobey the boss's decissions. He was against Hitler's assassination because in time of crisis you should stay behind the leader. I may be wrong, but I think that Rommel was for and because of this he was allowed to commit suicide to avoid dishonnor and to spare wife and kid.
Guderian had no consideration for men, he didn't saw men, he saw units. He had consideration for units, just like you have consideration for a horse or a usefull tool. Be nice to your horse, and you will get more from it. Don't throw away a usefull tool.
A military with no human - nor even klingon - feelings.

Now what you say about being the first leading from the front line, well I don't know, but Rommel was already at the front line when he did cross the river Meuse in may 40.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Giovanni August
But actually that General was living about 200 years before Emperor Commodus!

Are you sure of this, because I remember that after seeing the film, I checked and there was indeed a General Maximus, from Spanish origin fighting the Germs at the time of Marcus Aurelius.
I guess there was more than one General Maximus in whole Roman history.

[Kickasso]

Thanks, Tingkai for Iroquois heroes - Louis Riel who led two rebellions against the Canadian government and also Joseph Brant, the Iroquois leader during the American rebellion. My only question is about thier military records (are they glorious enough to fit the list?)...Please give me some info if any available...

Regarding Maximus - you're right it's more generic name than real and of cource it would be probably right to put Maximus hero without any doubts - at least one of several famous Maximuses had some victories but I'm going to be rather sceptical here. Details please and I immediately include him into Roman list.

Any Zulu here? Guys, do you know any Zulu hero to complete the list above?

[Bautou]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Regarding Maximus - you're right it's more generic name than real and of cource it would be probably right to put Maximus hero without any doubts - at least one of several famous Maximuses had some victories but I'm going to be rather sceptical here. Details please and I immediately include him into Roman list.

The name Maximus was more of a title than an actual name for most of the Roman period. For example, a successful general would recieve the title "Parthicus Maximus" for an exceptionally great victory over the Parthians, and so on. As result, there are plenty of victorious Maximus's out there, but most are referred to by historians by their pre-victory names so as to differentiate between them.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kickasso
What to do with George Monck?...

I basicly agree to replace him and offer two candidates instead of him to the final list: Boudicca or Montrose ;-)


Aztec (Mex) Heroes List:
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma
4. Tizoc
5. Itzcoatl
6. Huitzilihuitli
7. Benito Juarez
8. General Santa Anna
------------------------

Please don't substitute the Marquis of Montrose for Monck; Firaxis made the mistake of calling the civ the English, then including a Scottish fighter in the list of heroes. Montrose was a gifted strategist and commander, but was a Scot. Not English. And, as I said before, Boudicca was a Celt- leader of the Iceni, with a distinct non- 'English' culture and language.

George Monck, Duke of Albemarle, is rather better known than Cossack might have you believe, at least to anyone who has studied the English Civil War. Personally responsible for the restoration of both Parliament and the Stuart Monarchy of Charles II, defeating the main military power in Scotland, the Covenanters, and dealing a crushing blow to the Dutch fleets in the second of the Anglo-Dutch Wars, thus paving the way for Britain's supremacy at sea, and the establishment of an overseas Empire. Also founder of the Coldstream Guards, one of Britain's more famous regiments. You will find Albemarle Street in Mayfair, Westminster, and Albemarle House, and many a 'Duke of Albemarle' public house- a way the English have commemorated several heroes!

'George Monk, duke of Albemarle,
a distinguished military commander, and the great promoter of the restoration of Charles II., was the son of Sir Thomas Monk, of Potheridge, near Torrington, in Devonshire, and was born in 1608. Being a younger son, he entered the army as a volunteer, served under his relation Sir Richard Grenville, in an expedition to Spain, and afterwards for some years in the Netherlands. On the breaking out of the war between Charles I. and the Scots in 1639, he obtained a colonel's commission, and attended the king in both his expeditions to the north. When the Irish rebellion began in 1641, his services were so important, that the Lords Justices appointed him governor of Dublin.

On his return to England he was sent to relieve Nantwich, was taken prisoner by the army of the parliament, and sent to the Tower, where he remained till 1646. The royal cause being ruined, he obtained his liberty on condition of taking a command in Ireland, and soon concluded a peace with the rebels, for which the parliament passed upon him a vote of censure. Cromwell, however, made him lieutenant general, and gave him the chief command in Scotland. Monk distinguished himself at the battle of Dunbar, and afterwards in the war with the Dutch, for his successes in which he received great honours.

He resumed his command in Scotland. But the Protector had strong suspicions of Monk's sincerity; and not long before his death wrote him a letter, to which he added this postscript 'There be that toll me that there is a certain cunning fellow in Scotland, called George Monk, who is said to lie in wait there to introduce Charles Stuart; I pray you use your diligence to apprehend him and send him up to me. On the decease of the Protector, the resignation of power by his son, and the contest of parties which subsequently took place, Monk availed himself of the commanding situation which he occupied, to crush the republicans, and promote the recall and restoration of the Stuart family to the throne, in the person of Charles II.

As the reward of his loyalty, he was created Duke of Albemarle, with a pension of £1000 a year, made a privy councillor, and invested with the order of the Garter. In 1664 he was appointed admiral of the fleet in conjunction with Prince Rupert, and in 1666 obtained a great victory over the Dutch, in a battle which lasted three days. He died in 1670, and was buried in Westminster Abbey. Guizot has written a History of General Monk, which has been translated into English. A portrait of Monk, after a miniature by Cooper, is in the National Portrait Gallery. '

His victories over the Scots and the Dutch, unlike Robert Clive's 'victory' at Plassey, were not through bribery.

If you must reject Monck, then a more modern hero, to Ethiopians, Israelis and the Burmese and the British- is Charles Orde Wingate:

http://members.aol.com/Ocwingate/

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.com/owingate.htm

http://jewishclubs.net/wingate.html


By the way- Santa Anna is definitely not a Mexican/Aztec hero- despite his 'victories' at Veracruz over the French and at the Alamo over the Texans, the 'Napoleon' of North America was nothing of the sort- his periods of rule were a disaster for Mexico, and someone who can sell parts of his own country doesn't count as a hero in my book either. Clearly, due to the short duration of the Aztec/Mixtec Empire, a long list of heroes would not be feasible- however if you draw the list from the Triple Alliance of the Mexica, the Texcocans and the Tecubans you have more to choose from:

Moctezuma I (to distinguish him from the defeated emperor Moctezuma II)

Tlacaelel, his brother;

Nezahualcoyotl, Moctezuma I's Texcocan ally;

Axayacatl, Moctezuma I's successor;

Ahuitzotl, Axayacatl's successor;

Nezahualpilli, Ahuitzotl's Texcocan ally;

Cuauhtemoc

and the modern Benito Juarez gives you eight. Better substitutes for the Texcocan leaders might be Zapata or Pancho Villa, rather than Santa Anna.

http://www.indigenouspeople.org/natlit/zapata.htm

[Kickasso]

Thanks molly bloom - it's a strong vote for George Monk to return him back to the list. I was almost sure that I collected best of the best into English Heroes List before Cossack (zaslanny Kazachok! ) made me feel a doubt. Now I feel that neither Montrose nor Boudicca nor others from the Big List by Macaskil deserve it as Monk...(don't think you all agree but hope most of you)

Thus I restore British Heroes List as:

1. Alfred the Great
2. Richard the Lionheart
3. Edward I 'Longshanks'
4. Henry V
5. George Monk
6. James Wolfe
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

----------------------------


Pre-Final Aztec Heroes List is:

Aztec (Mexican) Heroes List:
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma
4. Tizoc
5. Itzcoatl
6. Ahuitzotl
7. Huitzilihuitli
8. Benito Juarez

Is it OK? if not - please suggest better one...

Also modern Japanese Hero is strongly wanted!

[molly bloom]

Kickasso- great job so far by the way.

One to be definitely removed from the pre-final list of Aztec rulers:

'Tizoc

1481-1486

Was relatively weak and cowardly in battle, "his life was short and his deeds few," his principal achievement being to initiate a major renovation and expansion of the Templo Mayor complex
'Chalk Leg'

7 th Ruler'

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Kickasso
Chinese Heroes List:
1. Han Xin
2. Sun Bin
3. Sun Tzu
4. Zhang Liang
5. Zhuge Liang
6. Wei Qing
7. Huo Qubing
8. Sima Yi

i think they are just too clustered!
all of the heroes listed here lived between 500BC - 300AD.

some of them lived at almost exactly the same time (Zhang Liang and Han Xin, for example) and fought for the same emperor.

My suggestion of a different list, which is more spread out and still preserve the "epicness".

1. Sun Tzu - before 3rd century BC (five-ish) - tactician and general
2. Han Xin - 3rd century BC - general
3. Zhuge Liang - 3rd century AD - tactician and general
4. Guan Yu - 3rd century AD too (but both of them are just too epic to leave out) - general
5. Li Jing - 7th century - general
6. Yue Fei - 12th century - general
7. Yuan Chonghuan - 17th century - general
8. Zeng Guofan - 19th century - general

Admittedly I don't know that much about history so some of these choices might be a bit weird. But they are all very famous generals among the Chinese, and qualify for the title of "epic hero".

note: there aren't any emperors or political leaders in the list, only military leaders. If you want any I can add them.

With political leaders (esp emperors)included as well (since Napoleon and De Gaulle seem to be in):

1. Sun Tzu - before 3rd century BC (five-ish)
2. Liu Bang - 3rd century BC - emperor
3. Zhuge Liang - 3rd century AD
4. Cao Cao - 3rd century AD too - "duke" (or the equivalent of that)
5. Li Shimin - 7th century - emperor
6. Yue Fei - 12th century
7. Zhu Yuanzhang - 14th century - emperor
8. Qianlong - 18th century - emperor

[Cossack]

Kickasso,

Molly Bloom is obviously a complete Monck fanatic, and lover of obsure 'so called' English heroes as demonstrated by the naming of 'who' Charles Orde Wingate, whom your average Englishman has never even heard about.

Personally I don't think that there should be any heroes from civil wars, why should you be considered a great leader for killing your own countrymen, a hero of the winning side, well yes maybe. Plus Molly Bloom neglects to even mention any of Monck's many defeats and highlights on Clive's bribery of the enemy at his final battle at Plassey as opposed to his other victories.

If you want to select a different hero than Monck, make it Harold for his victory against the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, or Lawrence of Arabia if you are looking for a more well known hero.

However, why should I stand in the face of such blind fanaticism, living in Moscow has enough hassles already without arguing with Molly Bloom by E-mail about the merits of some pointless civil war hero, plus if he ever makes it into an updated version I can always take Monck out using the editor.

Cheers

The English Cossack

[Kickasso]

Updates to the list (thanks to ranskaldan)

Chinese Pre-Final Heroes List:
1. Han Xin
2. Guan Yu
3. Sun Tzu
4. Zhuge Liang
5. Li Jing
6. Yue Fei
7. Yuan Chonghuan
8. Zeng Guofan

reserved list
6. Wei Qing
7. Huo Qubing
8. Sima Yi

Guys, unfortunately I don't have much time to learn Chinese history and make my own ranking of Chinese heroes - please check this list and let me know if anyone from reserve list deserves to be in top 8 more than someone currently included. Thanks in advance



To Cossack

"Personally I don't think that there should be any heroes from civil wars, why should you be considered a great leader for killing your own countrymen, a hero of the winning side, well yes maybe... "

Please understand me right - I'm just trying to complete BOB (Best of the Best) English list - and of cource I must read many different opinions here trying to find truth and rationality in your words more than compulsion.

Anyway George Monk is seems to be very different person. From one side he's well known general (and this is the criteria for my list), from another side he's a civil war hero and this affects his reputation. I would have agreed not to put in the list civil war general if all wars in the world brought only glory to armies and territory to belligerent powers. You all know it's not so simple and real wars have many negative aspects.

Btw I've put some civil war heroes in lists of other civilizations such as Aztec, Indian and probably Chinese not only because of low # of candidates but also due to their historical fame. Almost the same problem with German heroes - many germans don't want to see in their lists any Nazi generals - look above .

But I repeat again - I'm out of politic and I accept only military records of each candidate. Therefore if I start to exclude civil war heroes I have to exclude also colonial war generals and conquistadors and thus all long English history will be represented by only few persons (bad idea isn't it?).

Althrough Harold is a good replacement you've offered I'm still thinking on my final decision - you all may influence on it

Vote :

George Monk
or
Harold

If any other replacement will be suggested - welcome

------------------------

Also update for Aztec (Mexicans), thanks to molly bloom

Aztec (Mexican) Heroes List:
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma
4. Axayacatl (instead of Tizoc)
5. Itzcoatl
6. Ahuitzotl
7. Huitzilihuitli
8. Benito Juarez

Cya Kickasso

[Cossack]

No worries Kickasso,

I just don't want to argue my point anymore, as a pure bred Englishman from Devon (County in which Monck was born and I still had never heard of him before) I just think that your average citizen of that country should be able to identify with the names of their great leaders in the list as opposed to obscure names, people that want to include their own personal favourite GL's can use the editor to edit in their preferences.

BTW, great lists and keep up the good work.

Cheers

The English Cossack
àíãëèéñêèé êàçà÷èé

[Taxidopolis]

Originally posted by Kickasso

Althrough Harold is a good replacement you've offered I'm still thinking on my final decision - you all may influence on it

Vote :

George Monk
or
Harold

If any other replacement will be suggested - welcome

George Monk is completely unknown and obscure, Harold is well known and beloved so he gets my vote if it comes down to a choice between these two.

I'm not happy about either Boudicea or King Arthur being left out. They are two of the most well known heroes of England and they both represent resiliance, defiance and successful resistance to invasion an Invadersd oppression. Boudicea existed as did many other British leaders of the various 'celtic' tribes of the day. These are the roots of the English as close as we can get to them: the rest is a glorious mix and addition to these roots of Roman mixing, Angle mixing, Saxon mixing, Scandinavian mixing, French (celtic roots coming back) mixing etc etc. Bring back Boudicea. ancient war leader of world reknown and British

[Dr. Nick]

KITCH-EN-ER!
KITCH-EN-ER!
KITCH-EN-ER!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cossack
Kickasso,

Molly Bloom is obviously a complete Monck fanatic, and lover of obsure 'so called' English heroes as demonstrated by the naming of 'who' Charles Orde Wingate, whom your average Englishman has never even heard about.

Personally I don't think that there should be any heroes from civil wars, why should you be considered a great leader for killing your own countrymen, a hero of the winning side, well yes maybe. Plus Molly Bloom neglects to even mention any of Monck's many defeats and highlights on Clive's bribery of the enemy at his final battle at Plassey as opposed to his other victories.

If you want to select a different hero than Monck, make it Harold for his victory against the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, or Lawrence of Arabia if you are looking for a more well known hero.

However, why should I stand in the face of such blind fanaticism, living in Moscow has enough hassles already without arguing with Molly Bloom by E-mail about the merits of some pointless civil war hero, plus if he ever makes it into an updated version I can always take Monck out using the editor.

Cheers


The English Cossack

How very charming. From having a superior knowledge of the English Civil wars- or the Wars of the Three Kingdoms, if you prefer a rather more accurate title, since they involved Scotland, Ireland and England, and knowing obviously slightly more about the war in Burma and the Chindits than you do, I have become a 'blind fanatic'.

As to your claim about not mentioning Monck's many defeats- one of the several websites I referenced, gave mention of Monck's participation in (not command of) the Cadiz expedition, and his capture at Nantwich. How exactly am I avoiding his defeats? You state 'many' defeats, yet in an earlier post, claim to have never heard of him. Funny how your knowledge has suddenly increased exponentially.

Orde Wingate being unknown to the average Englishman- who is this average Englishman? Do British people know about the Chindits in Burma? Well, the ones I have met do.

Try reading up about Orde Wingate and his unorthodox approach to war, why the Israelis respect/revere him, his role in the successful Ethiopian revolt agaist the Italians and his participation in the South East Asia campaign.

Then come back and tell me how obscure he is.

Now as for English heroes having to be well known- go to Whitehall and have a look at the statues commemorating English/British heroes- there's a huge equestrian statue of Earl Haig, the man responsible for foolhardedly sending human waves of British soldiers to their deaths in WWI. You also have General Slim- you probably haven't heard of him, if you don't know about Wingate. Allenby? Walter Raleigh?

I suppose the 'average' Englishman may have heard of Walter Raleigh, but is he really a hero?

This idea that killing your own countrymen should disbar you- how bizarre. Montrose would be out, as would Mountjoy, Michael Collins, Napoleon, Harold (afer all, one of Harold's opponents was his brother, Tostig, and his forces), Julius Caesar, Pompey, Octavian, Mark Antony, the list would be quite extensive.

As to King Arthur- plenty of people know about the myth, but the accurate information concerning this probably Romano-Celtic chieftain(s) is more difficult to come by. And, as I have stated before, Boudicca is a Celt- and clearly at Verulamium and Londinium was responsible for the deaths of many Romanized Celts. So she'd be out too, given your criteria disbarring combatants in civil conflicts.

More of the 'obscure' Monk/Monck


HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY AND MORE

Recently merged with their sister Regiment, The Blues and Royals, to form The Household Cavalry Regiment, The Life Guards were the senior Regiment of the British Army. Formed in 1660, the Regiment was initially comprised of Gentlemen loyal to Charles the Second, and many had followed him into exile. Upon formation they adopted the red coats of COLONEL MONK'S regiment of foot, later the Coldstream Guards. (MONK had been a Roundhead Officer, but nailed his colours to the mast of the returning Monarch) I joined the Regiment in 1977, after 2 years of Junior Leader Soldiering at Bovington.

and:

General GEORGE MONK (1st Duke of Albemarle)
1608 - 1670

One of Oliver Cromwell's most loyal supporters, and leader of his subjugation of the Scots, leading to poverty and starvation by the early 1650s. MONK was part of Cromwell's defeat of the Scots at Dunbar (1650). He laid siege to Tantallon and Blackness Castles (1651), destroying the former and causing much damage to the latter. He also sacked Dundee in the same year. MONK drove the remaining royalists into the Highlands and build garrison fortresses at Ayr, Fort William (Inverlochy), Inverness, Leith and Perth to ensure peace in Scotland.

Although having served Cromwell with immense loyalty, following Cromwell's death and facing chaos in the army, he switched his support to King Charles II (1630-85), marching south from Coldstream (1660) to restore parliamentary democracy. His regiment was later renamed the Coldstream Guards. After his restoration to the throne, Charles made MONK the Duke of Albemarle.

MONK is buried in Westminster Abbey, London.

and:

Coldstream Guards

Raised 26.8.1650 for the Parliamentary Army as GEORGE MONK'S [Duke of Albemarle] Regiment.
1st Battalion

and:

The tiny village of Coldstream is where GENERAL MONK raised a regiment of Coldstream guards in 1650 for Cromwells army. They are today one of the premier regiments in the British army.

So responsible for the well-known Coldstream Guards, victor over the Scots and the Dutch, restorer of the monarchy and parliamentary rule, and buried in Westminster Abbey. Exactly what else should he do to qualify as a hero? Walk on water?