Beyond Alpha Centauri:: Discussion Thread 2 - Page 10

Lonestar · February 13, 2002, 14:47

Frankychan: How about a approachment with the GHE? (Possibly to make plans to expand our empires).

Kassiopeia · February 13, 2002, 17:00

Okay, post shall be up in a matter of minutes - must check possible conflicts with unread posts.

Feedback is acceptable, though not mandatory

, but I'd like History to tell me if he disagrees with what I had in about Brigadier Bismarck in the latter post (yes, I had to split it in half because of the 20,000 letter limit, I do seem to have a talent/tendency for long writing, bear with me - please?).

Quote:

Originally posted by Mellian
So the CHironians will have problems indeed While the Terrans slowly system after system near Sol, the Chiron factions are busy fight among themselves TAF will avoid getting into conflict with the Peacekeepers, Cyborgs, University and Gaians for now.... will only be the use of Force, but TAF will use propaganda, espionage, diplomacy and etc to acquire systems...... and may absorb Neutral systems too, who join the Alliance as Members.. better to be a member then the Conquered that is my guess in the long run anyway.......

This is a whole new Terran Alliance in my eyes.

I like it.

Mr. President · February 13, 2002, 18:36

Progenitor invasion would certainly be interesting. The ex-Planet factions might agree to ally with the Terran Alliance to protect the homeworld of humanity. Hmm . . . memories of Xerxes and Salamis, anyone?

History Guy · February 13, 2002, 19:07

Kassiopeia-- Good post.

I was hoping you would do in someone like Brigadier Bismarck, who's character I did not put too much effort into, rather than Marmion.

I shall start up on my post now, which will span a good space of time, and will have to contain the fall back from Callisto, the Saturn Kingdom diplomats, Mr. Sym, etc.

Mr. President · February 13, 2002, 19:55

Thanks for everybody who gave me ideas suggestions; you've been inordinately helpful.

Frankychan · February 13, 2002, 20:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
Frankychan: How about a approachment with the GHE? (Possibly to make plans to expand our empires).

Sounds good, I have a post that starts the ball rolling...Let me post it up first than we can start plotting. And don't worry about us getting hold of some of your dead. Hive is just going to do some autopsies to figure out who the heck you are. Nothing like stealing your tech.

G.H.E.----->

<-----Protectorate

Kass,

Don't worry, the Hive response to the Terran's is coming soon.
It looks like the Terran's need some......help.

Lonestar · February 13, 2002, 23:23

Quote:

Originally posted by frankychan

Sounds good, I have a post that starts the ball rolling...Let me post it up first than we can start plotting. And don't worry about us getting hold of some of your dead. Hive is just going to do some autopsies to figure out who the heck you are. Nothing like stealing your tech.

Well, we recovered some of your dead so our Evil Bastard Shadow Government(tm) can study the "Mindbend" effects. Plus dem aliens.

Frankychan · February 14, 2002, 03:03

Lonestar,

Sounds like your citizens can use a good dose of Thought Control. Maybe that's why your researching 'Project Mindbend'?

Lonestar · February 14, 2002, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by frankychan
Lonestar,

Sounds like your citizens can use a good dose of Thought Control. Maybe that's why your researching 'Project Mindbend'?

Actually, we have what is known as "resocialization", which is the euqilivant to Mindbend, we just use it on troublesome charecters. We aren't entirely sure how you do it, so we're checking it out. lLus we get to dissect some aliens!

Mellian · February 14, 2002, 11:05

Do realize people that we are dealing with an area of 50ly radius from Sol, not 1000+ly! So what is with jumbo fleets? if we are using the current BAC trend of having thousand of ships per system into Starwars... the Imperial Empire would of had up to million or more ships instead of into the thousands. This is not just concerning the Protectorate, but i am saying this to everyone. Pretty ridiculous to have so many ships in a small region of stellar space!!! There is such thing as Trained Manpower, Resources needed to build and maintain, Supplies and etc.... and no one use technology and government as an excuse. Else, we are better off playing a playing area of half the galaxy..... which will be hard to change now. We are working with a small area of space because FTL Drives isn't as fast or have as great of range as the ones in Startrek, Starwars and other big Sci-fi.... actually, Babylon 5 is more realistic concerning Fleet proportions vs span of space the series use to play with, keeping the rest of the galaxy unknown.

Another thing, no such thing as jumbo Cargo ships either

if you can build Cargo/transports/etc bigger then Dreadnoughts, then your capable to build big large Super Star Destroyers size warships.... so no jumbo Cargo Ships

Lonestar

not impossible to scan the internals Nanotech Hull Ships... just hard for Chiron Scanners/Sensors and even harder for Terran scanners/sensors...

-LMP

Kassiopeia · February 14, 2002, 11:29

This might sound hypocritical, after all I was the one who probably started the "Giga-sized fleet" trend, but LMP is absolutely right.

Try to cut down on the numbers, please?

Or... I am guilty of it? I tried to avoid numbers in my last post, but fifteen transports and some forty ships (Frigates, Corvettes, Cruisers, Destroyers, a Carrier) is not too much IMO.

So, LMP, what is the case-in-point?

Mellian · February 14, 2002, 12:25

Kass, those numbers are okay when dealing with Morganites in the Jupiter Area and similar or bigger fleet size in the Saturn Area.

Lets take the large number of Coalition Ships... what do they do to keep the navy busy then just going overboard in Defence, Escort and Patrol duties? Sol, Ross, Wolf 359 and Capella is generally defended by the TAF... so the Coalition and so on can spare their Fleet for other things..... like the Morganite problem in Sol and Titan...... and the Coalition is generally stuck in Sol too and maybe some bases at the other systems. The only ones they seriously need to worry about is the other members... as outside threat is generally taken care by the TAF.

Not, take the Protectorate for example... if they have like a total of 10 000 ships and they generally only control one system.... what do they with that many ships? how are they capable of supporting that many anyway? and being a fascist society isn't a valid excuse. how do they hide that many ships too? Instead wasting their time being quiet and hidden from rest of humanity, they have enough ships to go conquering..... especially when i would think they would have trouble supporting and maintaining that many.

anyway, got to go

-LMP

Mellian · February 14, 2002, 13:27

Lonestar

First of all, I suggest you seriously lower how many ships the Protectorate have... or simply don't mention a number at all.
Second....
How about this...Protectorate could have made contact with Caretakers via that Scout... but no Active/Diplomatic contact. feelings between the Protectorate and Caretakers cwould be Neutral... both leaving each other alone but yet barely talk to each other. Protectorate Fleet could be busy helping the Dosi defend against the Usurpers...like patrolling and defending border systems and so on. So the Protectorate would be kept busy one front, not able to focus directly at the rest of humanity. But should keep this as a background thing until the Proginator War starts....whenever...if ever.
As for your Hferfin race...instead of them being allies with the Usurpers, why have the Usurpers habiting their homeworld, which they originally thought it was a Manifold due to the races proto-mind thing...but when they realize it isn't they decide to stay and keep the world as part of their territory while tolerating the Hferfin...as they are not in the way despite being pests (little cute kitten loving the big mean dog, despite the dog mistreating the kitten). So while the Usurpers do their thing, ignoring the Hferfin as they consider them no threat, especially with their inferior tech. Hferfin simply want to please the Usurpers for some reason...so they go off looking for the Manifolds themselves.. so when they it and tell the Usurpers, they would reward the race somehow. So Hferfin may be pooking around Human Space, looking for the Manifolds...but they won't do so in force...atleast having a near lack of a military...as they pretty muich relly on the Usurpers to protect them back home anyway. Anyway, Hferfin could be later be the reason why the Proginator War started, if ever and whenever... as they discovered the Chiron and/or Tau Ceti and told the Usurpers, after a bit of convincing that they did... so causing the Usurpers to focus in humanity....when they start taking some human systems at the edge of human space towards Alpha Centauri, the Caretakers and maybe others find out via Espionage and etc about Alpha Centauri and start moving into Human Space as well, while cutting the Usurpers off. Pretty much becoming a Proginator race for Manifold Six.... while humanity suffers by being ran over in a way, until they smart up and unite against the Proginators..... Hive and Protectorate wouldn't be suffering much from the Proginators Invasion, but may help fight them or not, or whatever..... depending upon them... Protectorate could later on participate a big attack with the Dosi into Usurper Space while they are focusing in Human Space.

anyway, what do you think? long run of course, but making sense what you brought into BAC and balancing things out.

Franky,

Hive can somehow contact Kane and make some arrangement..... Hive helps Kane with somethings (help out somehow with the lack of manpower problem, offering a system, or generally help clear the last few obstacles so Kane cause an "revolution" among the pirates and unite the clan into the Pirate Empire)...the most dominating clan rules the Empire in a way, resulting in finally to properlly unite the clans into one goal, in exchange that the Pirates keeps the Morganites or whoever busy in another front?

Mellian · February 14, 2002, 13:49

Instead of using rough numbers for Fleet and Ground Force sizes... while use a Small, Medium or Large system?

for example:

Terran Alliance Fleet

Territory: 4 Systems (they may not completly control Sol and so on, but generally deal with them)

Military: +4-5 (in general)

Fleet: Large
-Offense: +4
-Defense: +6 (not always tech related... Battlecruisers may not be advance, but they sure can take a lot of punishment

)

Ground Force: Large
-Offense: +5
-Defense: +5

Intelligence/Probe:
-Offense: +5
-Defense: +7

For fleet sizes go from Very Small to Very Large. Gaians and Cyborgs could be Small..... Coalition and Combine have Medium size fleets, and etc...............

tech and so on levels in general:

Terrans: +3-4
Scions: +6-7 (Passive and have Small Fleet and Ground)
Chironians: +5
Protectorate: +6
Gorn: +7
Bree: +7
Dosi: +6-7
Proginators: +8
Fraal: +10

Anyway, that is concerning the Military

Society stats we sure atleast post then simply say it...easier to compare:

Territory
Military
-Size
-Offense
-Defense
Police
Probe
-Offense
-Defense
Support
Economy
Trade
Etc

-LMP

Lonestar · February 14, 2002, 14:42

Do you wake up everyday and say "You know, I'm going to find something wrong with Lonestar's faction today." LMP?

I've already spotted a few mistakes...lesse, of course even before I began colonization of Roving I controlled two systems.

I would argue that you would need a thousand ships to adequte defend ONE star system. Space is a pretty damn big place.

I have 1200 Capital ships...that's light crusiers and up! Battleships are included in that equation. You can even check the "last edited by" statement at the bottem of the post which shoes it was edited before you began your gripes today.

If we're running on the "Most relalistic Babylon5", then my numbers fall far below that, as it's canon on screen evidence the EA has "Thousands".(
see here )

I beg to differ on there being no "Super cargo ships", it's much easier to build something whose sole purpose is to carry crap than fight wars. Especially if the Cargo ships have detactable sections.

I've already completely overhauled the Protectorate's History at your request, I see no reason why I should change it further. Have I begun spamming the BAC story thread with bizarre twists and alien invasions of Human space? No.

Have I portrayed the Protectorate as Invincible? Technologicaly advanced, perhaps but you can check my most recent post to see for yourself we consider ourselves weak.

Same with the Hferhin...there's no canon evidence in either the game or novels that the Progenitors can't have allies. If I somehow missed this in the first discussion thread, then say so.

Sprayber · February 14, 2002, 15:09

Sometimes I come to the thread just to listen to Lonestar and Mellian

I've been trying to come up with a reliable number for Sparta's space fleet as well. And it's hard not to go overboard. Sparta has about 6 or 7 systems with only Syrma(home system), Tyre(former independent), and Gualt having a large population. The the others are small such as New Caladon(former PK) and Ironholm(newly colonized). the rest are mainly military installations and a few scientific assests. But not heavly populated. Sparta requires a large fleet of ships and large numbers of marines and regular troops. We have enemies in the Hive and Bree for sure. The Protectorate, Terrans, Progenators, Pirates, PKs and possible third parties represent substantial risk

Add to this the job of having some forces dedicated to the protection of the Morgan Coperate sector and you can see that the Spartans are spread across a large area. This doesn't take into account that the Spartans are obssed with protecting their home system. The Spartans are quietly horrified that the Terrans could allow the Morgans to sneak in and take one of their moons. That and even contemplate having a so loose of an organization and military ineffenciency by having so many different distinct defense forces. tsl. tsk

Take that into account and just think if you guys have x number for one or a few systems, how many must the spartans have to control such a large area against so many different potential enemies.

When the Spartans come to town we bring a lot of hardware with us. If Sparta had the population depth that the Terrans had, the GHE and the others would not be any problem at all

Lonestar · February 14, 2002, 15:43

You know, I was with LMP up until today. But his posts today indicate he didn't (a) go back and check stuff before griping and (b) actually read the BAC thread(or at least the relavent Protectorate posts).

He was pulling numbers out of his ass, somewhow the Protectorate dropped from 3 systems to one, and oh by the way, harping on a alien race that isn't relavent to the story (except as a disposeble enemy for the Protectorate).

I haven't got peeved once with his posts and requests up until today, now I am honestly mad. Dispite this being a collabrative story (which I've coordinated with others before posting) he wants to bend everyone to his view. Never you mind I haven't once greatly deviated from the story thus far, but by God, I disagree with his assement of the Progenitors, so I'm a enemy of the state (cue Will Smith soundtrack).

It really, really makes me mad he's going off like this, especially when it's clear he hasn't even read the History/Military commentary he's griping about.

Cybergod · February 14, 2002, 17:55

Oh God, that throat infection seems to have developed into some advanced form of flu! I had to spend two days lying in bed, drinking traditional medicine (ugh!)

And as I go on the Internet after my two days of inactivity, I find that this enormous argument has spilled over too many pages. But since I am not the thread-god, I will not interfiere...

I personnaly can't wait until Sunday (yey!) I should be fine by then.

So, what happens now? What would the EC if we considered colonising other moons of Saturn? And what would TA do about our friendship with Morgan?

Frankychan · February 14, 2002, 23:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Mellian

Franky,

Hive can somehow contact Kane and make some arrangement..... Hive helps Kane with somethings (help out somehow with the lack of manpower problem, offering a system, or generally help clear the last few obstacles so Kane cause an "revolution" among the pirates and unite the clan into the Pirate Empire)...the most dominating clan rules the Empire in a way, resulting in finally to properlly unite the clans into one goal, in exchange that the Pirates keeps the Morganites or whoever busy in another front?

Sounds feasible. I might have to postpone Hive encounter w/pirates, I got a lot of stuff going on right now.

To address the issue at hand...

Ok, Lonestar has made some concession. He has moved his faction to an area that was more realistic. Ship numbers in question---who says that they have to be piloted? They can be 'drones' piloted by auto-comps. As for this population center-->workers could be automated robots. Not humans, this results in the high # of ships or whatever.

In Mellian's defense, realistic #'s would be helpful.

Note, I am not taking sides here. I am merely trying to have both sides of the argument to see the other sides P.O.V. I say to try and cool off, then come back and think things out when emo. calms down.

As for Hive #'s,

I'm not totally sure how I should proceed with this. Of course we will have choke #'s (keeping with the nature of the Human Hive in the game). But with numbers we sacrifice tech. So a moderately small enemy fleet could destroy a large Hive fleet.

So...the Protectorate might engage in war w/the G.H.E.?

(don't make me laugh!) hey, im just kidding!

Mr. President · February 15, 2002, 02:32

I need to borrow some Galactic governmental figures for a banquet on the World of Trees in the Firaxis system. For the Spartans, the Terrans, etc. I'll check out the websites; History Guy - I need the name of a high-ranking Morganite who's available to visit Firaxis and have dinner with the Prime Minister.

Frankychan · February 15, 2002, 03:14

General,

I'm just warning you now that the Hive's response will be a rebuke. Glad to see that ya posted!

Lonestar,

Just a reminder, any action concerning another faction...for example, an invasion

*wink, wink* should be discussed first with that author's faction.

And where's that History Guy?

I liked our little back and forth "dissing" in this thread!

History Guy · February 15, 2002, 11:08

Godfrey Daniel! Man have I had a tough couple of days. Yesterday though I relaxed by going off to the Field Museum and seeing for the second time the magnificient Cleopatra of Egypt exhibit. The only problem was that if one had to get to the Museum one had to get through Chicago traffic!!! But I did enjoy myself, however.

Here I am Franky! I'm preparing my post, and man it's going to have to be a long one! But don't worry, Mr. Sym will be there, and the Hive stuff as well. Cybergod's guys will get here and we will leave to his place as well.

Mr. President, Let me see, we could send one of our "heavier" diplomats, the 400+ lbs of Mr. Physkon, to go visit Firaxis. We might just strike up a deal!

Mellian · February 15, 2002, 11:22

Lonestar, about the ships thing..... that was a General Point i bringing to everyone, not against you. As for reading the BAC story, I am getting there......but don't always have the time to read the whole thing in one shot....... (of course, should probably read then waste my time bring points up)..

Anyway, as for ship numbers.... I can understand having thousands of non-capital ships....... but to have a large number of Capital ships is silly

Also, you justified your point..... and don't take what i say as attacks

if i piss you off, tell me.....which you did

Size of fleets would depend on Technology, Resources, Construction Capabilities, Population level, Society and Territory.

And nearly impossible to completly defend a system too

Only thing i worried really is when we have small to medium confrontations, people will bring ships to the hundreds

What i mean in the realistic ship proportions in Babylon 5 is most confrontations in the series is usually fleets to 1-40 ships with only Starfighter support..... only time i see fleets of hundreds of ships in Babylon 5 is at huge armageddon type battles and so on........ like the Final Battle of the Minbari War around Earth.... EA would of needed to pull in their ships from everywhere else to Sol to have that many ships which that pic in that page suggests......... making the rest of their territory vulnerable.

Anyway, if you want a lot of Capital ships.....then depending on Tech, Territory, Resources, Population level and etc.... then the amount of smaller ships would lower....... if your fleet is mainly comprise of smaller ships like the Hive i think, then their numbers would considerably be higher.

As for the Hferfin and so on, IT IS JUST LONG TERM IDEAS!!! not orders, geez

as for Proginators having allies, I already discuss the reasoning we are using for the Proginators in BAC in 2700. Even if the Hferfin are "allies" with the Usurpers, i doubt the proginators would trust them with higher tech.... especially having past bad experiences of attempts to acquire alien allies, etc...... SMAC may not suggest it, but thats how the Proginators are in BAC and your the only one protesting

I am into collective decision, not the game pushed around by a single person..... (which could be anyone and i am not pointing fingers....hey!!! don't you dare point at me you finger, ahhhhhhh)

Sprayber,

if the Fleet Admiral of TAF have his way, then the Terran Alliance will be more organized then they are now.... which will happen once the Terran Council officially declares war on the Morganites and so on

and then start Conquering

-LMP

Cybergod · February 15, 2002, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Mellian
which will happen once the Terran Council officially declares war on the Morganites and so on

and then start Conquering

Aw! I really wanted good and solid Treaties with Morgan and his allies! Can the Saturn Kingdom choose to stay neutral? After all we have just sent diplomats to Morgan Interstellar...

History Guy · February 15, 2002, 15:07

Conquering?? Gulp. I hope not. Well, with my reinforcements (the remains of 1st Corps, the 2nd Corps, and the new 3rd Corps) and the Soldiers of God we can hold off those devilish Terrans for a while, though we hope the Saturn Kingdom shall not betray us after what we have done for them...

Sprayber · February 15, 2002, 15:17

I wouldn't get too used to the TA conquering too much. Cause the Spartan Federation will not just sit back and let Terrans expand at the expense of others. Don't think that it's going to be easy either. Every time the terrans try, they are going to pay with men and material. And don't think Earth will escape just because its the cradle of humanity. The Spartans don't care

The Spartans may be honorable, but if push comes to shoove, then the will gloves come off.

Cybergod · February 15, 2002, 15:29

Quote:

Originally posted by History Guy
after what we have done for them...

And what exactly was that?

Anyways we won't cos we need your mega bucks...

Sprayber · February 15, 2002, 15:34

--Terran Probe Team elminated for causing another double post--

Sprayber · February 15, 2002, 15:34

--hive probe agents eliminated for causing double post--

Sprayber · February 15, 2002, 15:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. President
I need to borrow some Galactic governmental figures for a banquet on the World of Trees in the Firaxis system. For the Spartans, the Terrans, etc. I'll check out the websites; History Guy - I need the name of a high-ranking Morganite who's available to visit Firaxis and have dinner with the Prime Minister.

Ambassodor Leta Holms- she can also be addressed as Major Holms. she has a direct line to Colonel Kessel and is responsible for high level decisions concerning Spartan-Firaxian relations.

Captain Zak VenDern-He is below Major Holms and is responsible for the day to day running of Spartan interests. He is also the point of contact for issues regarding Spartan vessels that are using Firaxian facilities or ground installations. He is also the official Commander of all Spartan forces that happnen to be in Firaxan territory. ex. embassy guards, any station personel, or ground crew that are Spartan.