Civ4 forum. Why not?

[player1]

When CTP2 get out many people where disappointed. Especially after first (and only patch).

Then forums cleared up & only those who liked to play CTP2 stayed.

Like me.

So why there is no Civ4 forum?
It would be nice to clear things up in Civ3 genaral, since it lost its purpose.

Which is:
General discussion on Civ3 (NOT why civ3 is bad forum)

[Martin Gühmann]

As I figuered out that the modded CTP2 is the Real Civ4 (See somewere in the CTP1 forum), we don't need a new Civ4 forum, because we already have it.

So we don't need a forum for Sid Meyer's next Civ clone now.

-Martin

[player1]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
As I figuered out that the modded CTP2 is the Real Civ4 (See somewere in the CTP1 forum), we don't need a new Civ4 forum, because we already have it.

So we don't need a forum for Sid Meyer's next Civ clone now.

-Martin

Martin, with all resperct to your CTP2 enthusiasm, you are wrong.
If you are right, then all those people like yin, vengar (partialy true), dissident, liberatian, etc... , would come to CTP2 forums.

As it is now, they all still hang on Civ3 - General forum.


Anyway that late game tedium in Civ3 never actully exised in CTP2, since it had much better combat, PW and managment system (although CTP1 national manager was better).
Still, with all MODs together, AI is still poor.

Only thing wich made late game tedium in CTP2 for me was memory leak in late game wich made CIV3 much quicker game then CTP2 (at leat for me).

And it was fun moding CTP2.

I never actully played it a lot.
Finished science victory only once (with my own MOD).

[ColdWizard]

Originally posted by player1
It would be nice to clear things up in Civ3 genaral

requests/petitions for new forums should be made in the Apolyton/Community forum

[Martin Gühmann]

Yin26 made a dicission, he was disapointed about CTP1, so decided not to support Activion, never bought CTP2 he just borrowed a copy to test a relative unmodded version. And he is right about the unmodded version. So he can't judge modded versions. But anyway I respect his decision, and therefore I can't expect that he will come to the CTP2 forum.

So finally you only complain about the poor AI: Peter is working on the new DiploMod, and he figured out that the AI does not employ its war strategies even it is at war. That could be fixed through slic. Decreases of the force matches will make the AI more aggressive (as Dale did in Cradle). And reducing the pollution happiness affect will make it easier for the AI to cope with the human, I have to increase the costs for the special attack incide revolution so that won't be so easy to devide your enimies. So CTP2 will be better than Civ"3" it could be ever.

-Martin

[player1]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Yin26 made a dicission, he was disapointed about CTP1, so decided not to support Activion, never bought CTP2 he just borrowed a copy to test a relative unmodded version. And he is right about the unmodded version. So he can't judge modded versions. But anyway I respect his decision, and therefore I can't expect that he will come to the CTP2 forum.

So finally you only complain about the poor AI: Peter is working on the new DiploMod, and he figured out that the AI does not employ its war strategies even it is at war. That could be fixed through slic. Decreases of the force matches will make the AI more aggressive (as Dale did in Cradle). And reducing the pollution happiness affect will make it easier for the AI to cope with the human, I have to increase the costs for the special attack incide revolution so that won't be so easy to devide your enimies. So CTP2 will be better than Civ"3" it could be ever.

-Martin

About AI:
I know about LIMITATIONS (things wich can't be moded in CTP2) and they are greater then is CTP1 (sadly). Theoreticaly AI can be improved even more, but it NEEDS LOOT OF CODING.

Look hexagonian Cradle thread and my post at the start of the page (or end of previous).

CTP2 will be better only when more people start playing it.

Or even complaing about it (that means that they have played the game).
It can be suprising how many people don't know about differencies between CTP1 & CTP2. Mostly they judge feature in one version and complaing about another (wich they didn't played).


P.S.
Hmm...
Am I posting out of topic?
This is Civ3 - General forum.

[player1]

Originally posted by ColdWizard

requests/petitions for new forums should be made in the Apolyton/Community forum

Yes, but Civ3 - General can benefit from it.
Like less trafic, new forum about great ideas, making civ3-general serve its purpose.


Anyway, its better to have Civ4 forum then some sort Civ3 complains or even Civ3 is worst game ever forum.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted player1
P.S.
Hmm...
Am I posting out of topic?
This is Civ3 - General forum.

Don't worry player1 you're on topic, your thread is just in the wrong forum it should be in the forum of the real Civ4 the CTP2 forum. Markos should just move this thread and everything would be right.

So let me explain why it is the real Civ4:

Activion got the Civilisation licence. They owned it and therefore the had the right to work on a Civ3 and that's the reason why they worked on the Civ3_project and called it finally Civilisation: Call to Power.

And on the top of the Civ3.ldl we find this:

#######################################
# File: C:\civ3_project\civ3_data\english\uidata\layouts\c iv3.ldl
# Last Access: Mon Jun 01 13:01:30 1998
#######################################

So we saw:

CivCTP = sequel to Civ2

For CTP2 it is obvious:

CTP2 = sequel to CivCTP

So we have to conclude:

CivCTP = Civ3

And threrfore:

CTP2 = Civ4

Maybe you have an objection, as CTP2 out of the box is not finished and the changes are to less from CTP1 so CTP2 would be just an expansion pack to CTP1, so CTP2 out of the box would be Civ3.5. And this would be also the point of view of an CTP2 alpha/beta tester. From the alpha/beta tester point of view we have to judge Civ"3" as a Civ2.5. But I can counter with the fact that mods acts like expansion packs, and the best thing is that they are free. So I can really say that I already play the real Civ4.

So all these people who are hanging around the Civ"3" forum, only played at least Civ3.5 and not Civ4. They think there is no help about CTP2 and thought it is the worst crap that they ever saw and waited for Sid to downgrate to Civ2.5 finally.

So lets go to the CTP2 forum. There we don't need to talk about Civ3.5 or Civ2.5, there we can talk about the real Civ4.

-Martin

[player1]

Anyway,

Martin,

I wish you good luck in improving CTP2?
Yes CTP2 is a great game is MODed properly


Still, all those people in Civ3-General need new forum.
They need to "dream" about some better game, not to chat about already exsisiting game (both CTP2 & Civ3) which they didn't liked.

[player1]

Hmm, I espected more responeses from those people who need such forum.

I guess they only read threads starting at:
-is civ3 a good game?
-stupid Ai
-I am bored
-Poll: why is civ3 bad game
-blah, blah, blah...


P.S.
Yoking of course.

[Immortal Wombat]

CtP2 has crap AI,
Civ3 has unresolvable balance issues, and no MP or scenario capacity.

You'd think there would be more enthusiasm about a Civ3 mod for CtP2...

[- Groucho -]

You aren't getting much response for two reasons: Martin threadjacked you and the whiners don't like to recognise that they are whiners, so this thread would just be too uncomfortable to post in.

But you're right - it would be nice if they were moved somewhere else.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by player1
CTP2 will be better only when more people start playing it.

But that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. Since the release of Civ3 there has been quite an influx of new players AND modders on the CtP2 forums and both Venger and Yin *are* among them (although Yin is there 'on invitation' and I doubt he will stay). I'm beginning to think Civ3 is the best thing that ever happened to the CtP community

[H Tower]

maybe because there won't be a civ4 until after the the scenario add on, the the second scenario add on, the multiplayer add on and the revamp addition? and those won't be done for at least 5 years. so why bother with a civ4 forum?

[player1]

Originally posted by Locutus


But that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. Since the release of Civ3 there has been quite an influx of new players AND modders on the CtP2 forums and both Venger and Yin *are* among them (although Yin is there 'on invitation' and I doubt he will stay). I'm beginning to think Civ3 is the best thing that ever happened to the CtP community

Still, not enough.
You've got players.
Now you need new MODers.
(no, not me, I have probably finished with CTP2)

P.S.
But,

Still have CTP2 CD,

(and MODs)

so...



P.P.S.

hey, Martin...
What have you actually extracted from my own CTP2 mod?

Can you help hexagonian to add those things in Cradle.

So they can "befefit" from my knowledge of AI.

[Ecthy]

Civ4 forum. Why not?

Because this is not your site. It is a private site. Case closed.

[player1]

Originally posted by Ecthelion

Quote:

Civ4 forum. Why not?

Because this is not your site. It is a private site. Case closed.

Nor, is yours.

Case opened again!

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Echinda
You aren't getting much response for two reasons: Martin threadjacked you and the whiners don't like to recognise that they are whiners, so this thread would just be too uncomfortable to post in.

Originally posted by player1
Hmm, I espected more responeses from those people who need such forum.

So I can't be totally wrong.

Originally posted by Echinda
But you're right - it would be nice if they were moved somewhere else.

Originally posted by player1
They need to "dream" about some better game,

Why not a Dreaming of a better Civ forum.

Originally posted by player1
I guess they only read threads starting at:
-is civ3 a good game?
-stupid Ai
-I am bored
-Poll: why is civ3 bad game
-blah, blah, blah...

Sounds familiar, just replace Civ3 with CTP2. But as long as patches are available the whiners will stay. They paided 45 bucks for the game, so it is their right to demand fixes. But in my opinion it is not OK if Firaxis will release MP and some extra features with an expansion pack, people already paid enough for the out of the box game that should contain such features, and expansion pack should only contain maps, scenario's or mods made by Firaxis, that's OK, if the included patches that enables MP for instance is available for free.

Note as long as people are whining they take care about Civ3, when they stop they don't care anymore. But to be honest the sales for Civ3 are good, although it is to expensive for its content, so why should Sid make the fans happy he is already successful and therefore future patches will only fix that really needs to be fixed, so Sid has enough time to focus on gulf.

To be honest I don't believe that Sid is the right persion who can make a new Civ. Of course he played a lot Civ but he never played enough late games on huge maps with many AI's and many Cities. Otherwise he would have added PW and a powerfull city manager. (You said it that CTP1/2 have a better sollution.)

Originally posted by player1
P.P.S.

hey, Martin...
What have you actually extracted from my own CTP2 mod?

Can you help hexagonian to add those things in Cradle.

So they can "befefit" from my knowledge of AI.

The PW and Gold boost for the AI.

DiploMod but unfortunatly I had to disable the war over script as it cause a crashed, as a city revolted and that civ formed a new Civ unfortunatly player2 was just destryed, so this Civ was a new player2 and I press end turn and the game crashed. So I reloaded slic the crash happend one turn later. Therefore I disabled war over script and I continued my game to the end of all my opponents.

I did not added your infrastructure and capitilisation slic, I plain to remove the building options for them from the AI build lists.

I added theese goals to my strategies.txt:

[/PHP]
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ADVERTISING Priority 450000 MaxEval 7 MaxExec 5 } //P1 added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_INCITE_UPRISING Priority 460000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 } //P1 added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_POISON_CITY Priority 460000 MaxEval 7 MaxExec 5 } //P1 added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_THROW_PARTY Priority 440000 MaxEval 5 MaxExec 3 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SUE Priority 470000 MaxEval 15 MaxExec 5 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_INDULGENCE Priority 480000 MaxEval 15 MaxExec 7 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_FAITH_HEALING Priority 475000 MaxEval 15 MaxExec 7 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_REFUEL Priority 470000 MaxEval 5 MaxExec 4 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_PARADROP Priority 490000 MaxEval 5 MaxExec 3 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_CLEAR_ORDERS Priority 460000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_RANGED_ATTACK Priority 405000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 5 } //MG added
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SALLY Priority 405000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 7 } //MG added
[/PHP]

The first three are from you the last ones except the sally goal are from me.

Additional I increased the slider element numbers, that will give the AI an boost start, so it will max out the sliders, the same thing that I do and I want to make the AI to do, too.

I added your build list sequences to my strategies.txt.

So the consequence is that the AI will now build production inprovements and has cities with a high production level. But this will cause a lot of pollution and the citiziens get unhappy, the AI has only the global slides to fight against unhappiness, so it has to lower the settings and therefore the AI performance in the late game decreases. And then there come the point when nothing will help to make the citiziens happy, entertainers are not an option for the AI, so the city will revolt and found a new civ.

The conclusion is to decrease happiness effects by pollution and increase the effects on the environment.

Another thing are the force matches:

    Offensive {        // This block is used when attacking units in the field
        AttackMatch  1.1     
      DefenseMatch 0.6    
      RangedMatch  0.9    
      BombardMatch 0.0    
      ValueMatch   1.0    
    }

    Defensive {
        AttackMatch   0.2
        DefenseMatch  0.9
        RangedMatch   0.2
        BombardMatch  0.6
        ValueMatch    0.7
    }

    Harass {            // This matching block is now used when attacking cities
        AttackMatch   0.9
        DefenseMatch  0.5
        RangedMatch   0.9
        BombardMatch  0.0
        ValueMatch    1.0
    }

    StealthAttack {
        AttackMatch   0.9
        DefenseMatch  0.0
        RangedMatch   0.0
        BombardMatch  0.0
        ValueMatch    1.1
    }

    Bombard {
        AttackMatch   0.0
        DefenseMatch  0.8
        RangedMatch   0.0
        BombardMatch  1.1
        ValueMatch    0.0
    }

    Special {
        // no force matching for special attacks
        AttackMatch  0.0
        DefenseMatch 0.0
        RangedMatch  0.0
        BombardMatch 0.0
        ValueMatch   0.0
    }
} 

High numbers mean that the AI needs more forces to execute an attack goal for example. So that means the AI needs more and advaced units in comparison to its opponents. So if you set all the ratios for the attack block to zero every stack with an attack goal will be turned in a suicide command, by the way the settings in the original strategies for the Barbarians and in the original game they attack really everything. And that is why the all the numbers of the special block are set to zero, otherwise special units won't attack something as they have no attack, defence... capabilities. So to make the AI more agressive you have to lower the force match numbers.

Another point is that Peter figured out is that even in war the AI does not employer very much it war strategies like attack, harrass and siege. That's why dave increases the numbers for these goals in the normal strategies so that in Cradle the AI won't focus on City defending even in war, so much.

So what is left: Diplomacy. Peter is working on this issure. And I also found something that could help us in the strategies.txt:

 //
    //  DIPLOMACY
    //

    // priority for fear motivations
    FearInvasion        1000
    FearCityDefense     1100
    FearPiracy           900
    FearScienceRank      800
    FearMilitaryRank     800
    FearTradeRank        800
    FearPollution        900

    // priority for desire motivations
    DesireAttack         800
    DesireGold           900
    DesireScience        900
    DesireMakeFriend    1000
    DesireEnlistFriend  1100 

the problem is that fear motivations are set to high, a civ should fear another civ, because of its trade rank, if a civ has high trade rank but a very low military rank, than the high trade rank is worth nothing.

So you see it is fixable although without a lot of slic, CTP2 has enough potential to beat Civ"3" AI.

-Martin

[Immortal Wombat]

Incidentally, has any Civ3er come up with a workable solution for mid-game tedium? I only ask because Lou Wigman just came up with a partial solution that could be implemented using SLIC.

*goes back to coding*

[Locutus]

Originally posted by player1


Still, not enough.
You've got players.
Now you need new MODers.

Modders who recently came (back) to CtP2:
- E
- The Big Mc
- sun_tzu_159
- FRITZ
- Pedrunn
- The Raptor
- odisseus

And I probably forgot a few too.

Granted, not all of them have accomplished great things yet but you can't expect that from newcomers. Good things come to those who wait...

[player1]

Then, good luck to you!

And all other moders.

For improving CTP2.



I hope Civ3 will have similar

MODing methods,

and communities

in near future.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by player1
Then, good luck to you!

And all other moders.

For improving CTP2.

Why, thank you.

I hope Civ3 will have similar

MODing methods,

and communities

in near future.

Dream on, baby, dream on...

(j/k, I hope so too, if it's really good it might even convince me to come back)

[player1]

Dream on, baby, dream on...

That's just a reason why we need a Civ4 forum.

CTP2 forums are for realists.

[Immortal Wombat]

[Ecthy]

[Dr Strangelove]

I'm not that impressed with Civ 3. It just did not advance the Civilization game genre sufficiently to justify itself. Unless someone comes up with some truly brilliant and innovative ideas I don't think that there ever need be a Civ 4.

[kimmygibler]

I agree, civ3 will refocus efforts back on ctp2. It is the best thing that happened for ctp2.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by player1

Quote:

Dream on, baby, dream on...

That's just a reason why we need a Civ4 forum.

CTP2 forums are for realists.

The only problem of such a Civ"4" forum would be that people have to dream a new dream. So the people that are currently in the Civ"3" forum are dreaming of a patched Civ"3". So at first people have to wake up that the Civ"3" dream won't come true and than they can start a new dream. So also if there would be such a forum it would not make people leave the Civ"3" forum. First they would try to dream on and that means stay at the Civ"3" forum. But if they wake up they become realist and go to the forum of the real Civ4 the CTP2 forum. So again we don't need a Civ"4" forum, because we already have it. Yeah you hit it CTP2 forums are for realists and Civ"3" forums are for dreamers.

-Martin

[DarkCloud]

Hmph. If anyone is interested in assembling a better catalogued List 4.0, with each idea seperated by topic, then said if it is for the PATCH, EXPANSSION PACK, or CIV 4... please contact me.

Here is the list which I compiled about a month after CIV III's release

http://home.att.net/~civgames/ideas.html

It is a fairly large file, so you may have to wait a bit for it to load

Hopefully if we get a forum we can better say our ideas

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Locutus
(j/k, I hope so too, if it's really good it might even convince me to come back)

That is a good news!