Religion

[Tim White]

I suggest religion for civ3. It would be like governments, except you could have as many as you wanted at a time. Heres a list of Religions I suggest:

- Buddhism

- Catholism

- Mormonism

- Jewdism

- Athiesm

- Idolism

Religions would start automaticaly, throughout the game, and would start in any city, and any civ. They would then expand from there. When a new religion is introduced to your civ, it gives you the option of how to treat it:

1. Support it
2. Nuetral towards it
3. Do not support it
4. Condemn it.

When an enemy takes a city of yours, that is the headquarters (origonal city) of that religion, then that religion has the right to order a crusade from there former civ. THe government must order it, no matter what they think of it. A crusade would be used to take back that city.

Religions would start at random times during the game, like at year 1 AD, a message would pop up, saying:
"Jesus Christ starts new religion in holy land." or something like that.

[CornMaster]

I think using religions in the game will complicate it too much. And you would need more religions than that to make people happy!!

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[Tim White]

I think you are wrong (no offence). Religions have had as much of a part of history as governments, or more. I realize that more religions would be needed, but those were the main ones I could come up with at the moment.

[Nikolai]

You have read "The List", haven't you??

[Tim White]

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai on 10-23-2000 03:48 PM You have read "The List", haven't you??

I have read some. Why??

[Christantine The Great]

Religions are a no-no. They will always alienate some group if they forgot one. And they will all make the Atheists (Like me) mad. I think the idea of having religions based on the civ's color are bad too. They just don't fit into the "Start the world over my way!" theme of Civ II.

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[Dom Pedro II]

How about just making the religion names something that that is made up by the player at the beginning of the game. That way no one is offended, and the player can still maintain his/her originality. There should be an automatic shuffling that puts out four religions at a time or so. Then newer religions come later on, and they can affect things like government efficiency because religions with one god seem to be more effective in consolidating power than polytheistic religions.

[zyxpsilon]

Need i remind, everyone, that religion is ALREADY well represented into the tech-model (Monotheism...).

Although it has had a great influence over many aspects of countries, populations, and other aspects of overall consciousness (historically), the general idea about Civ's progress is that they must rely on a steady supply of Food, a cunning flair at Trading and a sturdy mecanism to Produce.

Besides, happiness of your citizens is vastly controlled by the above factors and by what sort of government rules them.

Let's had a new specialist to that list? Entertainers, Taxmen, Scientists... "prophets,preachers?"

[Tim White]

I like that idea of prophets and preachers besides taxemen, sientists, and entertainers. I was hoping for more then that though, that each religion would have a different effect, like Mormonism would be 10% more tithes (gold). Since the mormons do pay 10% of every thing they earn to help the poor and needy. And each religion would effect different civs. like Catholism would effect europians more then americans. But, just a thought, so dont jump on me.

[Dom Pedro II]

quote: Need i remind, everyone, that religion is ALREADY well represented into the tech-model (Monotheism...).

Religion is HARDLY represented in the tech-model. And even if it were, religion is not a technology. A ruler can not simply research a new religion he wants. If he could, the entire history of Western civilization would be different. And why are there Cathedrals and Chapels? Who forgot to pass around the memo on the arrival of the messiah? because when the game hits 0 A.D., I don't remember being informed.

And other than the wonders and the city improvements, it really had no effect. Nothing really changed from it. As I said, a polytheistic religion is much more difficult to have a consolidation of power because every city has its own god that they pledge loyalty to . Monotheism unites the entire nation under one god, and with Monarchy, the king is the divine ruler thus making him even more powerful.

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[Lestat]

Good idea about the preachers / prophets...

I agree with Dom Pedro... remove Religion from the
tech tree...

To me it sounds good that a player at the beginning of the game has to specify his people's religion and the AI opponents would have their particular religions. Only a concept of different religions for different peoples gives meaning to the idea of preachers or missionaries. Although I personally think there is religious "advance" from Animism to Messianism and finally Atheism, I probably get stoned by others if I'd suggest to make "Atheism" as a last and ultimate religious advance. Therefore default religions at the beginning of the game without a statement about "advance" seem to be the most simple and less affronting to me.

[Caesar]

Tim White: you forgot Hinduism, Islam, the Baha'i Faith... and Mormonism? That belongs in a general Christianity section, perhaps?

Religion is a MUST! All the major civilizations of the past have been shaped, or destroyed, by the major religions.

Ancient Egypt declined with the advent of Judaism.

The Roman Empire declined with the advent of Christianity.

The Byzantine Empire declined with the advent of Islam.

Etc.

Religion has been a MAJOR part of history and it should not be ignored in Civ3 - indeed it should be fully integrated as a big feature, something that defines aspects of the way things occur... I don't have specific ideas, but the concept is important.

However to use real-world religions is insane. Not only could it have potentially unpleasant and divisive real-world effects, but its not fair on people who believe in one religion or another.

So made-up religions should be used. The principles of these religions is secondary in terms of the game.

C.

[Stefu]

There's pretty good religion model in The List. Worth taking a look, at any rate.

[DarkCloud]

Religion should not be in civ... too controversial.

[Tim White]

I did leave those out because I was just thinking of General terms at the time, I was just using that list as an example, and with Mormonism, That religion is part of Christianism, but it is still very different from all the rest.

[Antonios]

What about Ultra Orthodox Cristians?Forgot them? t

[Tim White]

I want to leave major religions, and real religions out, to many people offended. Just make them very general, like Christianity, and such.

[Nikolai]

I think religion is a MUST! I like the idea of picking up a religion in the beginning, but I think new ones should come random through time and that they would also spreed out or die random. The player should have to think about the different religions in his/her country, for example if you begin to massacre all the Jews in your population, Jews in other countries will be mad on you and probably, if they are a major factor in their country, persuade their rulers to react (go to war, threaten you, etc.). You should have the ability to have a state religion or to forbid a specific religion in your country!

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[Ralf]

Where should only be one religion, and that is the religion. Dont diverse

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited October 24, 2000).]

[Tim White]

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai on 10-24-2000 02:30 PM I think religion is a MUST! I like the idea of picking up a religion in the beginning, but I think new ones should come random through time and that they would also spreed out or die random. The player should have to think about the different religions in his/her country, for example if you begin to massacre all the Jews in your population, Jews in other countries will be mad on you and probably, if they are a major factor in their country, persuade their rulers to react (go to war, threaten you, etc.). You should have the ability to have a state religion or to forbid a specific religion in your country!

I agree totally with you. except that make the religions very general, like what I said above, or people will jump on me.

[Dom Pedro II]

Ahem... I think we are getting too hung up on how contreversial religion is in the game. I still think that imaginary religions are the best because that way, no one can be offended. You should be able to create all of the games religions as one of the options before starting the game in the same way you can change your civilization name and character. If you don't want to create real names or your own than the game will use default names.

This idea also helps us scenario builders out there.

Good idea for the default names: Hey, programmers! Name them after yourselves! I know I always wanted to be worshipped...
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 24, 2000).]

[Tim White]

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II on 10-24-2000 05:17 PM Ahem... I think we are getting too hung up on how contreversial religion is in the game. I still think that imaginary religions are the best because that way, no one can be offended. You should be able to create all of the games religions as one of the options before starting the game in the same way you can change your civilization name and character. If you don't want to create real names or your own than the game will use default names. This idea also helps us scenario builders out there. Good idea for the default names: Hey, programmers! Name them after yourselves! I know I always wanted to be worshipped... [This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 24, 2000).]

Amen, I am a scenario builder, a great one. I like that idea.

[Ribannah]

Perhaps religions could be interesting if the number of tribes were much higher. There are quite a few kingdom-type PBM-games in which religion plays a role, but always with a huge number of players.

With only 7 players as in Civ2, to distinguish between different religions would not add anything new and only complicate gameplay.

Religion as such is incorporated by techs like Mysticism, Polytheism, Monotheism, Theology, Fundamentalism, city improvements like Temples and Cathedrals and several wonders. So, the importance of religion in human history is well taken into account.

I think it's very doubtful that any specific religion by its unique content has had a major influence on the course of civilization. Religions reflect civilizations rather than shape them, and most of them are not so unique at all.


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[Paulypav]

I think religion is an important aspect and needs to be included in more ways than just the tech tree. In the interest of not offending major religous groups, I think imaginary religions could be created with characteristics taken from various religious groups. To be truly effective as an aspect of game play there should be various religious groups within each civilization even if there is one predominate religion. This would be similar to the effect of the cleric and televangelist units in CTP. If your religion is monotheism, all cities in other civs that are monotheistic will contribute to your civ. I would like to see random shifts in beliefs as well as the use of special units to achieve shifts in the religous beliefs of the populace.

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[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 10-24-2000 11:56 AM Religion should not be in civ... too controversial.

I can see a few ways in which it could be integrated in the game, without offending anyone, and which would make the game more challenging.

Both in COLONIZATION and CTP appear religious units!!.

In CTP there are the cleric (with theocracy) and the televangelist (with massmedia, makes cleric obsolete). They can: a) sell indulgence; b) soothsay; and c)convert cities. The effect of them is increasing happiness and "conquest" (depending on which side things happen pleasant or nasty).

In COLONIZATION you have a) the jesuit missionar and b) the firebrand preacher. The effect of both of them is creating free units for the build-up of your colony. A) is to be send of to indian villages to "convert the savages", so that every now and then an indian appears at the gate of the most nearby city who spontaneously wants to join your city. B) has to function inside a city in a church>cathedral to "show off the religious freedom they have" so that units in the homeland pop up for free on the quay "to be taken to that free place overseas".

Things could be likewise in CIV.[list=1][*]I would like it if these kind of P&P-units should appear in the game (I must say that I don't like the televangelist, just to solely & typically American a notion).[*]I can think of a kind of balance in religions between civs (like now with diplomacy).
If you have developed either polytheism / monotheisme / theology it should be possible to choose a religion (a roledown menu ?!). And if you have made that choice without knowing which one the AI has chosen for other civs (not yet made contact) it may turn out to be .... . That could be a reason for tensions between the civs, especially when heavy conversion activity is undertaken.[*]When you send in just one "P&P-unit" it shouldn't be possible to convert a whole city at once (like with spies now). Like in COLON. it should be so that in CIV-terms settler-units "defect" from other civs for reason of conversion. That might have the consequence that you would have to pick up these units from the other side of an ocean. To convert a whole city you would have to send in a lot of them (the complete salvation army ).[*]The effect of "P&P-units" should be depended on the happiness of a population, high standards low effect and vice versa.[*]Civs which have turned fundamentalistic might even start a holy war (crusade?!/jihad?!/whatever nonsense). It should only be possible to build either crusaders or fanatics under these conditions, and when things are really.[*]The only way to keep units from "defecting" in your own civ is increasing happiness, which you may do by sending in a P&P into your own city ...... [/list=a]

In the thread top 10 of new tech by Ribannah (last post october 8th )I pleaded for the introduction of Humanism as a link between the religious and the scientific advances.

why do I always keep editing my posts ???
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited October 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited October 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited October 26, 2000).]