Thread Tools
Old January 21, 2002, 12:17   #1
Worthingtons
Prince
 
Local Time: 19:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pride Park,Derby
Posts: 393
Firaxis, and Why Civ III is not what we *want* it to be...
I've seen a lot of people have a go at Firaxis for thier destruction of Civilisation III, and other reasons. People feel cheated by them , and feel like they, the loyal consumer doesnt matter anymore. whilst this is quite true , people do not realise Firaxis are no different to any company, like Eidos for example.

Profit will ALWAYS come before the interests/satisfaction of the Loyal consumers in any company that exists, hence every good game taken over by a big company will go down the same route as Civ III .

Nearly every good game is born by a gamer (or gamers) themselves (In this case old Sid), but as a game become more and more popular, it's potential profitability becomes higher, and a big company will buy the rights to develop the game, and then it's numbers on P&L accounts, rather than smiling faces that takes precidence.

Civilisation II, and Championship Manager 97/98, and Elite Frontier II, are 3 of my all time favorite games, these games were born from the dreams of thier creaters. But once they captured the imagination of a large audience, the dream was exploited to make greater profit until the dream is dead and all is left is game which sells copies by living on the game's past glory and the 'casual gamers' desires.

I dont feel Civ III is nearly as good as it could be, I'm annoyed sure, but I understand WHY it's happening, and how powerless we are to stop this. Libitarian Moaning on this boards is guaranteed to have zero effect on the polocies of Firaxis.


We would all like to See the games we have really took to just get better and better, and are upset when they dont, but how many of us really have contributed towards it's creation?? we have all put our money into buying the game, but we will all agree we have our money's worth too. The problem is, a demand to pay for a product, on it's own simply isnt enough to get what we truly want out of a game. If we really want a good game, what we feel Civ III should be, the 'hardcore' fans should attempt to develop such a game for themselves - This is the best chance of getting what we really want from a game. I myself am no expert coder, my knowledge of programming is quite limited, but if i dont put in anything, I cant expect anything more out of the game apart from the £35 which I invest to buy it, which i feel I have got a good return for.

A lot of people want a lot more, but how much more are they actually willing to put in??
Worthingtons is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 12:26   #2
ScottVib
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 15:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here
Posts: 65
Who's we?

I've been playing since Civ I and I enjoy Civ III as is, but to each his own...
ScottVib is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 13:33   #3
Worthingtons
Prince
 
Local Time: 19:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pride Park,Derby
Posts: 393
'We' is the vast majority of people on here, who seem to be highely critical of Civ III. All i can see on here, are posts about Civ III's shortcomings, and moans at Firaxis. I cant see many posts saying 'This game is absolutly amazing, they seem to have got Civ III near perfect' , I happen to agree with most views, but dont see a way that Firaxis will change.

A lot of people are annoyed, but who can we blame for a product that isnt whey want???

The shareholders and owners are bound to want a return on thier investments, I would had I invested Millions of Pounds.

The Managers are bound to want to make the company as profitable as possible, so they keep thier Jobs.

The Programmers just do what they are told to do.

So while I am nowhere near 100% happy with Civ III, I dont see how my view will change any of the above.
Worthingtons is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 19:59   #4
The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
King
 
The Emperor Fabulous's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 1,413
You must not know the term "passive resistance." By not buying the game, by letting them know that you won't get the game since they are putting their needs before yours is one way to go. You don't have to accept it if you choose not to. I personally find this game fun, because after Call to Power, I was thankful to get back to *true* Civilization.
__________________
"I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
^ The Poly equivalent of:
"I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite
The Emperor Fabulous is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 20:10   #5
The diplomat
King
 
The diplomat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
The problem is that each gamer has their own idea of what they want to see in civ3. It would be mpossible for Firaxis to make a civ3 that pleased all the civ fans here at 'Poly. To even come close they would have to devise a super-editor that allowed each player to change the game to their liking and that would be extremelly difficult to pull off. They made a civ3 that pleases some players but upset others. That is inevitable. If they had done the opposite, they would have pleased those gripping now, but at the expense of those content now.

Furthermore, Firaxis does not have infinite ressources and time to make civ3. They had a limited amount of time which they had to spend in a way that they felt would produce the most successful game. Limited time and ressources automatically means that they had to make some sacrifices.

They will undoubtly work on some more patches to tweek the game closer to what the majority of gamers are asking for.
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
The diplomat is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 20:17   #6
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
Moaning on this board creates bad press, at least for the people who like to visit boards before buying games. This, in turn, hurts the Firaxis bottom line.

If Firaxis ignores the complaints and allows negative feelings to snowball, that is bad business. Pure and simple.
__________________
I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

"Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.
yin26 is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 20:21   #7
The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
King
 
The Emperor Fabulous's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 1,413
Also, everyone has to have something to complain about. At least they're complaining about it where they're supposed to.
__________________
"I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
^ The Poly equivalent of:
"I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite
The Emperor Fabulous is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 20:35   #8
MonsterMan
Warlord
 
MonsterMan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 261
Anger met by silence will grow -- and spread.

A lot of people are angry at Firaxis, and when they don't hear anything back from them -- in any way -- they get even angrier. If the company dropped by and said:

"We're working on the next patch, we are trying to improve the editor and create multi-player support, but please understand we can't promise anything."

That would do a whole lot to improve people's feelings... I think. As yin26 said, all this negativity is likely to hurt sales of Civilization III, so one would think a response is in Firaxis own best interest.

Btw, I heard that the company has devoted two people (and two salaries) to administrate the beta-test group. I see that as they do support Civilization III, and will likely continue working for some time (i.e. they will release a juicy add-on in let's say six months).
MonsterMan is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 21:12   #9
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
If one were to base their purchase on the attitudes of a forum, then one would never buy a game!
Steve Clark is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 21:15   #10
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
EU2. Space Empires 4. Just to name two. I'd add MOO3, but since it hasn't been released, it's not a valid comparison, though the indicators are all quite good.
__________________
I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

"Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.
yin26 is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 22:37   #11
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
All depends where you look. Actually, my little quip needs to be qualified in knowing which fora are bent on squelching negatives posts and the ones that are not. Regarding EU, the fanboys and the constructive critics have gravitated towards Paradox' forum, but by no means is it universally loved, as you imply. IMHO, EU sucks as a game, regardless of the amount of positiveness in the forum and the amount of PR by Paradox. Good posts and good PR doth not a good game make.
Steve Clark is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 22:43   #12
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
First, criticisms are generally A) gladly accepted and recognized by the developers themselves on those boards and thus B) die in a wave of good feeling that at least people aren't being ignored.

Second, your claim was that looking a board would always lead you to NOT buy the game. Sorry, that's just not true. EU2 and SE4's boards would let you know that at the least you'd be buying a game from developers who value fan input. If you don't care about that, so be it. You'd also find a LOT of fans who are very very happy. If that STILL doesn't mean anything to you, why check the boards.

Third, Civ3 is a crap game with crap PR ... and the boards here attest to that fact. Crappy PR, that is, doth often indicateth pooreth abilitieth toeth supporteth youreth gameth.
__________________
I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

"Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.
yin26 is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 22:50   #13
OneInTen
Warlord
 
OneInTen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:38
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 144
Quote:
At least they're complaining about it where they're supposed to.
Actually, no.

If you believe you've been ripped off because the game does not live up to the manufacturer's claims, you should be complaining to the consumer affairs body in your place of residence.

If you don't believe you've been outright ripped off, but are still dissatisfied, you should be complaining to Firaxis, as the makers of the game, or Infogrames, as the publisher.

Blowing off steam in an unrelated public forum isn't exactly the right place if you want your complaints to be heard by the companies in question.
OneInTen is offline  
Old January 21, 2002, 22:52   #14
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
The company in question summarily ignores e-mails and fails to make updates on its own homepage.
__________________
I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

"Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.
yin26 is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 04:23   #15
Archaetus
Settler
 
Archaetus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Eternity
Posts: 21
When talking about the greatest game in PC history, it's easy to have expectations that won't be met. We're all here on this forum because we have some interest in some version of Civilization, a game which is, in my opinion, unrivaled. It's hard to make the greatest game better, and I'm sure even the most adamant of Civ 3 fanatics can rattle off an enormous list of failed expectations. I'm just thankful that someone is out there trying to improve Civilization and that its legend is being kept alive. Even if some feel that certain areas have been trampled upon, I'm certain that Civ 3 and any sequels which may follow will always triumph when put to battle with any other PC game.
__________________
" . . . I fought, and strove, and perished, countless times . . . as if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, where I've fought in many guises, many names, but always me."
-Gen. George S. Patton Jr.
Archaetus is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 06:14   #16
Libertarian
King
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,267
Quote:
The problem is that each gamer has their own idea of what they want to see in civ3. It would be mpossible for Firaxis to make a civ3 that pleased all the civ fans here at 'Poly. To even come close they would have to devise a super-editor that allowed each player to change the game to their liking and that would be extremelly difficult to pull off. They made a civ3 that pleases some players but upset others. That is inevitable. If they had done the opposite, they would have pleased those gripping now, but at the expense of those content now.
That's an ignoratio elenchi.

What you've actually shown is that people are groping desperately for some way to make the game interesting. What if they did this? What if they tried that? Maybe this other thing would help.

Primarily two attributes keep a single-player game interesting: (1) the player is forced to make meaningful decisions, the consequences of which have pros and cons no matter which way he goes, and (2) there is a reasonable chance to win (or lose) throughout the entire course of the game.

Civ3 fails miserably in both of these.

What are interesting decisions in the early game — do I forego building this to accomplish that? — settle into pure unadulterated drudgery as the game moves into the modern age (or even the industrial age). Instead of should-I-build-a-worker-or-another-settler, all the the fundamental matters of development are accomplished. You have a hundred workers; you have all the cities that the map will support; you have all the basic improvements necessary to ensure empire growth.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't shift at this point to something that will force you to make interesting decisions again. Rather, you can pretty much set everything on automatic and just sort of watch. Problem is, the interface won't release you from interaction. Whereas before, your clicks had consequences, now they do nothing more than advance the game along to its next excruciating turn.

This is the point at which many people, including people who hate war, go to war — often for no reason other than that there's nothing else interesting to do.

Unfortunately, the game's interface and design doesn't lend itself well to conducting manual enterprises in the modern age. If you go to war, you must be prepared to fight not only the enemy, but the interface as well. Thanks to bizarre unit activation sequencing, you will be routinely yanked away from your theaters of battle. Maintaining any sort of continuity is a hopeless exercise in futility.

Meanwhile, you have not been relieved from the prior tedium already described. You still must click-click-click to keep the game moving along. Here comes the frigging Domestic Nag, bothering you about hospitals. You click a hundred times to dismiss her. And she is as dumb as a stump. She will ask you whether you want to abandon your wonder two turns before completion.

By this time, the conclusion is in sight. Whoever has the greatest lead in the linear technologies wins the conquest or space-race game. Whoever has the greatest lead in the linear culture model wins the culture game. The only mysterious victory is the diplomatic one. But many players turn it off, having reported that they lost despite impeccable diplomatic relations over the entire course of the game.

Once you've achieved victory, you've no choice but to drive it home. Otherwise, you'll be penalized if you want to continue play, i.e., your score will suffer if you wait. So, even if you have resigned yourself to playing along with the doltish rule-set you've been given — building railroads on every tile, etc. — you get a penalty instead of a reward.

Many years ago, Sid said that it's interesting decisions that make for a fun strategy experience. He was right. And Civ3 has those for the opening part of the game. But then they vanish, leaving you to clean pollution in a world where you can't eliminate it; to mollify people who can't be made happy; to feed populations that can't support themselves; to build things you don't need.

And when you've stuck it out, you run headlong into a violation of yet another fundamental rule of gaming. For your efforts, you get a beep and a message box declaring your victory. It is sudden. And it is insulting with its anticlimatic ruination of your experience. Winning is supposed to result in a climactic display of honor and glory for a job well done.

People would be happy if they were given interesting decisions to make. It doesn't matter so much what they are. Just something that makes sense and is supported by the interface.

Now, when consumers of such a game begin to complain to a company whose official policy is to ignore questions and complaints, you end up with the current state of affairs — a game that returns more than ten pages when you search for it on ebay.
__________________
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham
Libertarian is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 06:59   #17
OneInTen
Warlord
 
OneInTen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:38
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 144
Libertarian, what you describe is not only a fault in Civ 3, but a fault in every game in the genre that I have played.

My belief is that it is caused by the exponential growth curve your lead tends to take. The problem is the rich get richer without even trying, until they reach a point where they can't lose without making an effort to and the game becomes somewhat dull.

If you get twice as powerful than the rest of the civs in 100 turns, you can bet your bottom dollar that in most games, by the time another 100 turns have passed, you'll be 4 times as powerful. And then 8. And then ridiculous amounts.

Come from behind victories are simply very, very unlikely from the AI (the human player can pull it off against the AI only because the AI doesn't use its advantage anywhere close to effectively, and the AI's production bonuses on higher difficulties help it more in the early than the late game).

I've been kicking around a game design in my head since before civ 3 came out, and this point is one I consider one of the most vital to address, if not the most vital.

If you manage to get twice as powerful as the other players, if you slack off and only play as well as the other players from that point, you should at best maintain your lead. You should have to continue to exceed the play of your enemies to build a bigger lead - and the bigger your lead becomes, the better you should have to play to extend it, it shouldn't just grow by default.

Additionally to this, the AI players should behave like any group of intelligent human players would, and aim to gang up to take the current leader (whether human or AI) down a notch and back to the pack. Simiarly, an AI in the lead shouldn't jsut allow itself to be overcome, and should instead use intimidation against some of the weaker opponents to try to force them into fighting on its side.

In my opinion the lower level AI doesn't even need to be particuarly good at the game so long as the high level AI is programmed to interact with the other AIs and players in such a way that will enhance its own position.

Anyway, I've gone of on a bit of a tangent perhaps, but if you know of any game that works the way I've described, I'd love to heard of it. But at the moment, I can't mark civ 3 down for the late game tedium because it seems to be a consequence of the way all the games in the genre are written (I have ideas of how to fix it, but until they're implemented, I'm only guessing if they'll work). If anything civ 3 is slightly better than most since the corruption model at least attempts to limit the lead in production any one player can take, and the tech research model with the min and max times ensures that no one civ can get too far out from the pack.

Last edited by OneInTen; January 22, 2002 at 11:07.
OneInTen is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 07:18   #18
Libertarian
King
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,267
But that's like breaking Michael Jordan's knees so the game will be more "interesting". It won't be. The most balanced college basketball game I ever saw was back in the olden days when Dean Smith had just unveiled his Four Corners Offensive. Duke beat NC State 10-8. Uh huh. Ten to eight. In basketball. It was the following year that the shot-clock was introduced.

Balance isn't enough. The player must be given interesting decisions to make. Making interesting decisions is the very soul of strategy.
__________________
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham
Libertarian is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 10:56   #19
OneInTen
Warlord
 
OneInTen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:38
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 144
But the point is that the only way a decision can ever be interesting is if it affects the game. If the game is surely won or lost anyway, no matter how many choices you are given the decision does not matter. A game where you had a choice of one of 100 units, each of which you knew would crush the enemy easily, would not be interesting, despite the number of different paths one might take.

Therefore a good strategy game is a balanced one, as only when the game is in the balance can one make the "interesting" decisions.

Further to this I think that most people like to win, but be challenged along the way. Therefore I think most people's ideal game is one where the AI is good enough to hang in there with the human but when it realises the end of the game is near, back off just enough so the human wins without realising that the AI has let them.
OneInTen is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 11:04   #20
OneInTen
Warlord
 
OneInTen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:38
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 144
Oh yeah, I'd also very much like to know what TBS game doesn't suffer from the game already being over before the end and therefore having a lack of interesting decisions at the end.

I'm sure it is possible, but if nobody has yet managed to make such a game, then it must be pretty damn hard to do.

A general solution to this class of problem would have huge effects on not just this genre but others (for example, adventure games which tend to have a maximum level beyond which there is no further improvement).
OneInTen is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 12:29   #21
DrFell
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
Local Time: 20:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,131
Re: Firaxis, and Why Civ III is not what we *want* it to be...
Quote:
Originally posted by Rothy
Civilisation II, and Championship Manager 97/98, and Elite Frontier II, are 3 of my all time favorite games
Along with Lemmings and perhaps one or two others, those are my all time favorites too
DrFell is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 13:33   #22
Velociryx
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of FameC4DG Gathering StormThe Courts of Candle'Bre
Moderator
 
Velociryx's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,664
Well...if I could chime in....the game we're making doesn't quite exist in computer form yet, but the way it's shaping up, it looks like there's be a lot less late game tedium than in many other games of the sort.

Granted, our first release will be just "the basics" but it's a sign of things to come, and I DO have some solid, tangible ideas to keep late game tedium from becoming a factor, including:

1) Random events/Scripted Events. There's an old Alan Parson's project song that very much guides my thinking here, and one line in particular goes: "...but the game never ends when your whole world depends on the turn of a friendly card."

Good line, and a great gaming mechanic to keep things dicey to the very end.

2) The bigger you grow, the harder it is to grow more. With built in limits to stuff like that, you don't get the usual, build troops, rush, expand, rinse, repeat, done. You grow to a point, and can grow further...but the effort involved becomes ever greater....to the point that it simply becomes more efficient...more EFFECTIVE to grow vertically instead. Mind you, there's less we can do with this particular aspect of the game we're making in the very early releases (again, for the sake of simplicity), but the *ideas* are there...just waiting till we're advanced and on our feet enough to begin implementation.

And I'm always lurking in forum threads like this one soaking up ideas....

-=Vel=-
__________________
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
Velociryx is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 14:01   #23
ACooper
Prince
 
ACooper's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In a dark and scary hole!
Posts: 728
Quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
But that's like breaking Michael Jordan's knees so the game will be more "interesting". It won't be. The most balanced college basketball game I ever saw was back in the olden days when Dean Smith had just unveiled his Four Corners Offensive. Duke beat NC State 10-8. Uh huh. Ten to eight. In basketball. It was the following year that the shot-clock was introduced.

Balance isn't enough. The player must be given interesting decisions to make. Making interesting decisions is the very soul of strategy.

Dean Smith? Duke? Huh?
__________________
Sorry....nothing to say!
ACooper is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 14:09   #24
Libertarian
King
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,267
Dean Smith invented the offense and popularized it at UNC, where he used it sparingly as a tactical system.

However...

It spread like a sick disease, and other schools (especially ACC schools) began to adopt it as a strategy. The final blow was the 10-8 game I cited.

If you're not familiar, the Four Corners Offense was basically playing "keep-away". Just as the name implies, four guys would park themselves on the four corners of the half-court. A pivot guy would meander around distributing the ball to them, where they would each just stand still and dribble it for several minutes. A team could keep possession for a long long time. It was originally intended to be something to run out the clock in the last few minutes when you had the lead.

But it got to the point that the first team to score would shift immediately to the Four Corners, and the rest of the game was one huge yawn.
__________________
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham
Libertarian is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 16:17   #25
nato
Prince
 
nato's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: West Unite
Posts: 532
Quote:
1) Random events/Scripted Events. There's an old Alan Parson's project song that very much guides my thinking here, and one line in particular goes: "...but the game never ends when your whole world depends on the turn of a friendly card."

Good line, and a great gaming mechanic to keep things dicey to the very end.
You mean you could be playing along just fine, and then BAM! out of the sky a random event could wreck your whole empire? A random event you have no control over and can't defend against because it is ... random??

I hate to be critical but I think thats a really bad idea. I think people who like strategy games will really hate it.

Too much like the old land mines in chess thing... just how I see it.
nato is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 16:52   #26
Velociryx
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of FameC4DG Gathering StormThe Courts of Candle'Bre
Moderator
 
Velociryx's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,664
Nooooo! I definitely can't stand those kinds of empire wrecking big events that you can do nothing to prevent! I'd never even consider putting those kinds of events in the game (in fact, check out the core rules to the game....you'll see, appended to the end that there are some pretty nasty random events, but the very worst of them doesn't begin to approach what you describe).

The kinna thing I'm talking about would be more along the lines of, even if you're holding on by the tips of your fingernails, a bit of skill at holding out just a LITTLE bit longer, and the sometimes amazing hand of fate and fortune can lead to a turn of events or a bizzare combination of events that serves to be just the thing you needed to save your A$$.

On the other side of the coin, if you're totally dominating the game, your opponents may find themselves on the receiving end of JUST enough luck to give you the willies....

-=Vel=-
__________________
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
Velociryx is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 16:54   #27
FrantzX
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Warlord
 
FrantzX's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 175
I work in a Planet X, a video game store at the local mall. Whenever I see someone looking at a Civ III box, a walk up to them and talk about the game. I almost always get them to buy it, and so far, we haven't had any returns.
FrantzX is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 16:56   #28
Libertarian
King
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,267
What is the time limitation for returns at your store?
__________________
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham
Libertarian is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 17:15   #29
ACooper
Prince
 
ACooper's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In a dark and scary hole!
Posts: 728
In 1968 Duke lost 10-12 to NCSU in the ACC tourn.
In 1986 the 45 second shot clock was introduced.


Other than the facts your point is well taken (sort of.....)
__________________
Sorry....nothing to say!
ACooper is offline  
Old January 22, 2002, 17:18   #30
FrantzX
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Warlord
 
FrantzX's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 175
Seven days if you don't like it. No set policy for defective stuff, but if you have your slip, we'll most likely take it back.
FrantzX is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:38.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team