The Rogue State Strategy

SanPellegrino · January 24, 2002, 13:19

I always read the strat forum at poly, but didn't found that one covered:

San Pellegrino's Rogue State Strategy

Most games I've played on Monarch, 8 civs, large map with unmodified rules.

Maybe you know that situation: When it comes to midgame, I found myself nearly always in front but with 2 or 3 major rivals that were too far away to deal with. The early wars are over, Democracy is now en vogue, and the AI begins to discover new techs every few turns, war isn't likely to occure.
If you follow the normal path of tech-buying/selling, all you can hope for is a very close win in a world with megatons of pollution, because most civs get competitive.

So I like to pick a civ as "rogue state" (sometimes they pick me

) and goad the whole world in war against them.
I stay in republic, when everybody switches to democracy, beeline for suffrage and police stations and go to war with a big aggressive civ (which is easy to achieve, they always want something for tribute) on another continent.
I sign military alliances with everyone against them, even with small civs far away from them. They want some some reward for this but it's worth it. I don't do much in that war, only build up my military an try to achieve naval superiority if necessary.
If a civ signs a separate peace with the rogue state, I will renew the Alliance the next turn.
After 20-25 turns all AI civs get very war-weary, their population sinks, disorder occurs and they are likely to sink in anarchy. (if they make peace - renew the alliance). After 30-40 turns I have achieved my goal - all civs are in less prospering government forms, cities are taken and retaken, they kill each other. I may have discovered some war weariness myself, but i am in republic and got suffrage, hopefully.

Now I've got two paths to follow:

1) make peace and watch the fight while developing. From my experience the AI is less likely to make peace when in less representative governments and also it seems like some kind of vendetta between them and the rogue state occurs, when I'm forced them to break peace treaties too often. Maybe you are the only one with a rep or demo now, which is a HUGE advantage.

2) Join the party! The rogue state should be in a bad condition by now, having no one to trade with and losing a lot of units, pop and normally their little islands or cities on other continents. And now the smoke is gone I can easily claim their land - they where once a powerful civ, maybe it's worth it! ( I have to switch gov too)

With this method I was able to achieve a huge civ2-like tech lead, while getting rid of a major opponent (at this point I do not trade techs anymore).

Some AI civs suit better as rogue states than others.
The rogue state should be

- one of the major powers of the world, that way you get rid of an opponent, while they last longer than weak civs as "public enemy"

- aggressive, they are less likely to sign peace treaties and switch to mon/comm early.

- militaristic/build units often, to make sure they are not wiped out quickly or make peace because of weak forces.

From my experience germans or aztecs suit best as rogue state, they build large empires, some infrastructure and a lot of units, they are also very aggressive and especially the germans are often in the tech lead. Zulus are not as good, because they build little infrastructure and tend to be backwards. The other aggressive civs like persians or english will do when they got big enough.

I think this strat is not only powerful, but also fun, because a big military power can cause a lot of damage to the other AIs and there is always something happening. To be the "puppetmaster" is fun, too.

Did anyone made similar experiences, or any ideas, comments or suggestions?

Arrian · January 24, 2002, 13:57

I also play on Monarch level, although mainly with 8 civs on a normal map. Because I beeline for the Great Library and other Great Wonders that boost science, I often build up a huge tech lead on the AI without sparking a world war - provided no one attacks me in the ancient era. If that happens, I'm usually toast. Normally, my strategy involves stages:

1) Peaceful expansion and development (ancient/early middle ages), concentration on setting up a strong economy and building key wonders, and grabbing as many luxuries as I can.
2) First war of conquest. (late middle ages/early industrial age)
3) Development of new territory, further development of homeland. Forbidden Palace usually built at this time.
4) Second war of conquest (optional... this depends on how large the gains were from stage 2. (Industrial Age)
5) Sit back and build SS while the AI fumbles about in the mid Industrial Age -OR- Third war of conquest, aiming for domination

Of course, each game is unique, and the above formula varies depending on how things play out. But, in general, my goal is to acquire at least 6 types of luxury resouces of my own, and all the strategic resouces. Then, decide whether to dominate or launch.

Often the AI civs will start a world war without any prompting from me. I love it. Just like you said, they all end up communists, and entire empires can be broken. Meanwhile, I sit back running a prosperus democracy, selling resources in a way I feel will best balance the opponents, and race ahead in technology. Then, when the AI's are exhausted by war, I will decide whether to launch my SS or send forth a horde of Modern Armor.

Sometimes you will get a medieval world war. They are a bit less common than the industrial age ones, but they happen. The key there is opportunism. Watch how the war is going, and when the time is ripe, jump in. Generally, I will attack the combatant with the most luxury resouces.

You just have to be careful not to get dragged down with the rest of the world. Staying republic is an excellent idea for your strategy, because I doubt a democracy could handle it. Democracy, I think, is the best government for the type of wars I fight: short, decisive wars which are aimed primarly at getting more luxuries. Democracy produces tons of money and science, allowing you to get ahead in tech, while building and maintaining a large army. When I strike, I do so with overwhelming force... and it's usually all over within 15 turns.

-Arrian

JohnE · January 24, 2002, 15:11

I have been using a variant of this strategy recently. I played on a large map, with the maximum number of Civs for that size. Everything else is standard.

I started as the Persians, and aimed for world domination. Every time a Civ became a rival, I try to get the world to gang up on them. Our first victim was Greece, who wanted something I wouldn't trade to them. Next came Zululand, who occupied space I wanted. Then came the Aztecs, who had the misfortune of occupying the weakest position on the continent where I had no cities and being adjacent to my next intended victim. Using Azteca as a springboard, I attacked Russia, who were second only to me in score. Then things got interesting.

I tried to get the world to gang up on England, but they wouldn't do it. The very next turn though a war erupted with the Iroquois on one side and the English and French on the other. I happily jumped in to help the Iroquois, and eventually eliminated the English and French. Then I wanted to gang up on Germany, who had most of the world's Wine, but again my diplomacy failed me a bit. The whole world, including me, ganged up on China and took their four cities.

Now, there are only three Civs left: Persia ( me ), Iroquois, and Germany. This gang-up thing can be a good strategy! Now hopefully I can victimize someone one last time, and take out the Iroquois!

SanPellegrino · January 24, 2002, 15:38

thx for the good pints you made!

Arrian: "Often the AI civs will start a world war without any prompting from me. I love it. Just like you said, they all end up communists, and entire empires can be broken. Meanwhile, I sit back running a prosperus democracy, selling resources in a way I feel will best balance the opponents, and race ahead in technology. "

Good one, you're right, when you don't have to do anything and they kill each other - Perfect!

But more often I find different situations:

a) there is no war at all, all are in democracy and tech race gets really fast

b) some big guys gang up on a small one, kill them quickly and stay in demo while getting more and more power

These are the situations that I want to actively avoid and where the "rogue" gets very important in my opinion.

SanPellegrino · January 24, 2002, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnE
I started as the Persians, and aimed for world domination. Every time a Civ became a rival, I try to get the world to gang up on them.

I tried that too, but found it very difficult, because you allow some civs to become real strong and it seems hard to break the peace between peaceful civs. Using the #1 or 2 as rogue state levels the playing field more and is easier to provoke.
Or did you find a way to make e.g: india and france break a treaty without giving away too much stuff?

Kc7mxo · January 24, 2002, 17:48

I loved the diplomatic angle of war, if I'm thretened I get everyone to gang up on them. If i was bored, I got everyone going against each other.

Its unfortunate that they didn't do a better job on the cobat model, cause fighting wars in civ 3 is damn fun, and the AI is surprisingly good at it. Compared to previous incarnations of course.

SanPellegrino · January 24, 2002, 19:43

You' re right, I think the Ai does a decent job at fighting wars and the diplo system is a HUGE improvement. These kind of games weren't possible with Civ 2 and I think I should write a new quote

SanPellegrino · January 25, 2002, 13:56

Some statistics from my current game:

5 civs are left, I play Romans and share a continent with the both small indians and egyptians. I am ahead in pop and cities, but after 3 wars achieving that, I've got somewhat "overextended myself" and my infrastructure is totally underdeveloped. The Germans are in lead both tech and culture and have got the other continent for themselves, after smashing the japanese, which whom they shared it from the beginning. The English are on an island south of them (and managed to build oracle, gardens and sistine in London, arrgh). All are demo, I'm republic. Sooner then I wanted them, Germany attacked me with no reason (they got more units of course). So I made alliances with the rest against them. I only tried to build up modern forces (those Legionaries were great in the ancient wars, but now those well-trained soldiers upgrade to ... nothing!) and many ironclads to prevent invasions.

So, that's the basic situation. The war started 1360, now it's 1600 = 52 turns

- The English had war with the germans before that and after i initially bribed them to go to war, they never needed a second invitation. They also build a big fleet, so german ships are not likely to be seen anymore. Although they got sistine they fell into anarchy after 35 turns and switched to monarchy. They had same tech like me, but now they are 6-7 behind

- The Indians and Egyptians both betrayed me once and signed peace with germany, but I was not angry with those little peaceful civs, just signed a new alliance... Now finally, both are Monarchy, but only the last few turns

- The Germans were the first to fell in anarchy, about 25 turns, switched to monarchy (nobody has communism except me). They had a lot of well-developed size 12-cities that were drained to 7 or 8 after war-weariness occured (very funny to observe with a spy, 2 citizens, 6 or 7 entertainers). The Germans are now behind me in tech, but made a very good stance. They lost a few far-flung outposts, and their entire fleet of course, but defended their homeland successfully and were a terror most of the war. I was amazed when 6 knights, 2 cav and some pikemen landed on the borders of my only little island city (naturally the only one I couldn't get troops to in time).

- Me. I'm still in republic and in tech lead now. I experience little war-weariness, none in cities with police stations (I've built suffrage). I got tanks now, and I think I switch to comm to finish off the germans before they got replaceable parts. The others are no match in science anymore.

Situation has advanced into my favour now, the germans used to sell their advances to the others, they can't do this anymore and they all research much less.

Jack_www · January 25, 2002, 14:42

I think this rogue state idea is great, and I will try in the next game I play. Right now I am in the middle of a world war and still in a republic and I have universal sufferage, and I have notice that I am surrfering form very little war wariness. One thing I notice when the A.I. attacks they send a huge flood of units at you at first, then as the war progress the number of units attacking you start to fall, and pretty soon they have very little offensive units in their army.

SanPellegrino · January 25, 2002, 20:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack_www
One thing I notice when the A.I. attacks they send a huge flood of units at you at first, then as the war progress the number of units attacking you start to fall, and pretty soon they have very little offensive units in their army.

You're right, In long wars they do it more often. Their seems to be some kind of routine, like: "scratch a lot of units, go to weakest spot of opponent and attack". But I don't know what exactly triggers it.

SanPellegrino · January 26, 2002, 15:04

New observation:

The Egyptians signed peace with the germans again. I forgot one turn to ask them, the next turn they already switched back to demo. damn religious trait. but science is very slow i am 10-11 techs ahead now. tanks vs. riflemen, I must use that.

SanPellegrino · January 31, 2002, 13:03

Republic lets you stay for about 65 turns at war with the same opponent, before war-weariness gets really bad (with suffrage of course). I discovered, that many people play similar strategies, do you stay in republic always or switch to mon/comm? I tried a switch ton mon a few times for world conquest, but it gets really tedious after you've done it before

jabberwockysr · September 10, 2002, 08:13

After the first 20 turns of the military alliance against my rogue state the aztecs, everyone paid me for renewing the military alliance. After 20 turns of providing them with free luxuries at no "real" cost to me, they paid me both to continue the war against the aztecs (which they'd started really) in addition to paying me for the luxuries that they were now relying on me for.

I don't know if it always works, but it sure is nice to be paid for an alliance that I'd asked for in the first place.

Lucarse · September 10, 2002, 09:15

Not to appear annoying but somebody better look up the deffinition of a 'rogue state'.

Using the correct deffinition YOU are the rogue state pitting everyone against each other as the 'puppetmaster' as you put it.

A rogue state ignores the international communty and does what ever it like conducts wars, hostile trade leveraging etc. on its own terms, operating 'unilaterally' usually by proxy! (sound familiar to our US posters)

You should probably call it 'Scape Goat' or 'Scape State'.

Any arguments read 'Rogue States' by Noam Chomsky that'll sort you out!.

alright i'm ready for the flaming...

Arrian · September 10, 2002, 11:52

Lucarse,

It doesn't really matter what we call it from a CivIII strategy perspective. Technically you're right, this strat is all about puppeteering, but is getting the terminology correct really that important? Or could it be the strategy advice that matters?

Oh, and leave the political digs at the US to the off-topic forum.

As a side note, I find my post in this thread hilarious: "I often build up a huge tech lead on the AI without sparking a world war - provided no one attacks me in the ancient era. If that happens, I'm usually toast." How times have changed, 8 months and several patches later

Now I'm the mean SOB in the ancient era (though the tech lead is still a major goal).

-Arrian

Proteus_MST · September 10, 2002, 12:10

Quote:

Originally posted by jabberwockysr
After the first 20 turns of the military alliance against my rogue state the aztecs, everyone paid me for renewing the military alliance. After 20 turns of providing them with free luxuries at no "real" cost to me, they paid me both to continue the war against the aztecs (which they'd started really) in addition to paying me for the luxuries that they were now relying on me for.

I don't know if it always works, but it sure is nice to be paid for an alliance that I'd asked for in the first place.

Yep,
I also use Luxuries as Incentive for the other Civilizations to join my Military Alliance against Russia.

It does a great job, as long as you have enough Luxuries to give away (in my current game i have plenty of them).

Gastric ReFlux · September 10, 2002, 12:56

The Rogue State strategy can be quite powerful. I was reminded of it this last weekend when reading Sirian's (posts at CivFanatics and the Realms Beyond forum) account of a Deity level game. It seems with the way the AI is programmed to handle war, a prolonged one will eventually force it into a situation that causes destruction from all insides, and destruction within.

When an AI is at war, it seem to produce, almost exclusively, military. Infrastructure like marketplaces, temples, et al, disappear from the build queues. Some of the best evidence of what the AI does when at war is from those who have played the Always War variant, with declaration of war at first contact and no peace ever made. I played a game of that recently and it was incredible to see the AI cities lacking for any basic infrastructure.

vmxa1 · September 10, 2002, 13:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucarse
A rogue state ignores the international communty and does what ever it like conducts wars, hostile trade leveraging etc. on its own terms, operating 'unilaterally' usually by proxy! (sound familiar to our US posters)

Actually, no it does not. To act contrary to ones own best interest is foolish and could be fatal. The majority are not alway acting in my best interest. But again, why bring politics into the board?

Lucarse · September 11, 2002, 03:52

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Actually, no it does not. To act contrary to ones own best interest is foolish and could be fatal. The majority are not alway acting in my best interest. But again, why bring politics into the board?

I Apologise, I just wanted to enrich the forum with the correct terminology :-).
Vmxa1 I withdraw the comment about the US, with the caveat that I have an MA in Policitcal Science and Strategic Studies so i do know where of i speak, honest.

Which (toget back on topic) is why I like Civ, i get to put into practice everything i learnt,

The funny thing is i still get my ass kicked above prince level and i'm eternally impressed with people who blithely play at emperor/deity level.

I have played the puppet state strat before and it works very well as long as the chosen state is not the strongest AI. I find the AI doesn't usually like to pick on stronger AI's and getting them to do so can often be too costly to be worth the trouble (most of your treasury, a few techs) other wise i have usually helped other civs by way of sitting a few carriers of the coast bombing untis that may hold the 'allied' army up, and softening the cities, so much so you can almost dictate the path of the attack, of course this would be all but impossible on large continents.

Any idea what this would do for your rep? since you are not landing troops or occupying cities?

vmxa1 · September 11, 2002, 12:13

No problem.
The best method of getting the AI to do something is luxs. When I was attacked by the largest nation (Japan) and most of their cities where far away, I got everyone to go to war with them. I did it by offering them wines/furs/gem etc. Next best is tech, I do not use cash as a primary means, only sweetener. This works in mid game or later, because the AI is having its share of unhappines and the luxs will make some happy citizens. I did not expect much from them, but it at least kept them from joining in on the other side. To me the rep is not of much use. If you are in Industrial or later phase, the land is claimed and wars are coming, unless you are far stronger than they are. I try to not start the wars late in the game and let then start them to avoid some of the ar weariness, which is important.

Lucarse · September 12, 2002, 03:30

I agree, in the later game it is usually a good idea and substantially cheaper (size of military needed etc) to cause such schisms between nations so they basically knock themselves about, normally their science suffers and you gain a military and tech advantage.

All you need to do is pick your target!

.

(I almost always wait till the post industrial era to start major wars, .. its more fun wirth more toys to play with)

Killerdaffy · September 12, 2002, 15:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
As a side note, I find my post in this thread hilarious: "I often build up a huge tech lead on the AI without sparking a world war - provided no one attacks me in the ancient era. If that happens, I'm usually toast." How times have changed, 8 months and several patches later

Now I'm the mean SOB in the ancient era (though the tech lead is still a major goal).

-Arrian

I've been absent from the forums and the game for a couple of weeks (I dabbled in Medieval: Total War for a while but found it ultimately unsatisfying). I read your post and about fell off my chair!!

I seriously thought you had crossed back from the dark side for about 30 seconds - until I saw the date...

SanPellegrino · September 13, 2002, 09:10

well, I thought this thread was buried long ago... But I still use this strategy, after the "tech-whoring" patch it became even more powerful.

But Styles develop (as Arrian mentioned before

) and now I like "Coalitions", because one rogue state can be quite weak, at least if I fight the war myself, so I like 2 or more states as "Axis of Evil".

SanPellegrino · September 13, 2002, 09:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucarse
Using the correct deffinition YOU are the rogue state pitting everyone against each other as the 'puppetmaster' as you put it.

A rogue state ignores the international communty and does what ever it like conducts wars, hostile trade leveraging etc. on its own terms, operating 'unilaterally' usually by proxy! (sound familiar to our US posters)

You should probably call it 'Scape Goat' or 'Scape State'.

OK, I agree with you, in civ3 the players' nation is the real Rogue State, but otherwise it wouldn't be much fun

and, like in real life, if a nation is a Scapegoat or a Rogue State just depends on your point of view...
So I came up with this name, because my Allies won't fight against a poor scapegoat