Regent kicks my tail off the continent

[saj14saj]

I had been playing at the second difficulty level (Chieftan?) to learn the game. When I reached the point where I could win pretty much no matter what, I decided to switch to Regent.

My understanding is that on Regent, the computer players get no advantage, but are not held back.

Yet... they continually manage to beat me up pretty badly, usually to the point where I have to start over.

I won one game only at Regent, where I managed to fight the only adjacent civ pretty early, and turn that into territorial and then military advantage--but it only happened once.

. . .

I am wondering if there are Civ2 habits I still have to let go of, or if there is something I am just missing at Regent.

. . .

If I expand as fast as I can, I do very well and often lead the power graph... until it is time to switch from Despotism as the other powers are researching very fast and beginning to out tech me.

Then, when I go to Monarchy or Republic, I have so little money from the corruption in the cities that I have to start disbanding my military or do absolutely no spending but to support it.

I become completely unable to react to any situations that arise, and them pretty soon someone decides to go to war with me, and it is the beginning of the end.

. . .

If I try an early war, I can often conquer a few cities from a nearby victim (I have learned not to start as the Egyptions because the Romans are not good for this!) but then my military gets worn down, and I am not expanding as fast.

The other powers fill in all of the open space, are larger than I am, and pretty soon begin to think I am easy pickings--and it is the beginning of the end.

. . .

If I try to build any wonder whatsoever, I always end up having to switch production to another wonder, then another wonder, then another wonder.... then someone on a continent I cannot even see builds the only choice I have left, and I lose many, many turns of production.

If I don't build wonders, I am very low on culture, and my neighbors think I am weak, and pretty soon try to attack me... and then it is the beginning of the end.

. . .

If I don't build lots of temples and things, my entire population wants to do nothing but demonstrate in the streets, and I cannot produce anything. But if I build lots of culture (even as a religious civilization), I don't get to build as much military, and someone decides to pick on the weak kid next door--and it is the beginning of the end.

. . .

If I try to turtle and just build military and culture without attacking, the computer civs expand so fast that they soon have a military from ***##$### and want to attack me with 35 swordsmen, when I have at most 3 or 4 defenders in any given city--and it is the beginning of the end.

. . .

I must be missing something, but I just don't know what it is.

What did you all find you had to do differently when you made the jump to Regent? I cannot even imagine playing on Monarch or Deity right now.

---Unlucky Conquerer

[Hermann the Lombard]

Hmm...I never played at less than Regent, but let's hear from the leading lights of this forum (and I do *not* mean that sarcastically). My basic suggestion is to keep reading here, especially Vel's strat thread.

That said, there seems to be a cusp that comes when you want to switch from Despotism to a "better" form of government. Like you, I never seem to have enough money, and I tend to stagger along in 40-turn research, because anything higher leaves my treasury shrinking like ice in a frying pan.

My solution is to *stay* a Despot and *take* the tech I need from my neighbors...which is different for me because I tended to play Civ2 in "purist" style (as in 4 cities, launch the space ship) and I enjoyed OCC (which I'll have to try here soon).

This game, however, I'm Babylon at Monarch and I'd *like* to switch from my early military action to "republican" growth and tech in fewer than 40 turns. My net income is nearly zilch because I built too many buildings (high maintenance), and if I switch, unit support would bankrupt me. I'm about to find out if I staying a Despot for a while will work here.

Since I'm under attack by Persia and Russia, I'm not inclined to give up pop-rushing vet units. Yeah, it's a pity I grabbed Sun Tzu. Correction: I have *been* under attack by Persia and Russia, now it's time for me to take the fight to Persia!

-- Hermann

[Willem]

Originally posted by saj14saj

I must be missing something, but I just don't know what it is.

What did you all find you had to do differently when you made the jump to Regent? I cannot even imagine playing on Monarch or Deity right now.

---Unlucky Conquerer

Maybe you already know this, I'm not sure. But keep an eye on your science spending. Quite often in the early game, you can crank it right up but it doesn't let you get the advance any quicker. If so, keep rolling back the slider until you see a definite change in the research time. You might find that you end up making more gold per turn that way and so won't have to disband your military. You have to keep a careful eye on it, you can't just set a fixed rate and forget about it. If you do, you might end up wasting a lot of potential income without even affecting the speed at which you discover new techs. You'll really notice this if you are in Republic. Just dropping the slider down a notch or two might bring in as much as 30-40 gold/turn more, and your research time won't have been affected at all. That's one change I had to get used to after playing Civ II, it's a much more volatile way of conducting research.

[vmxa1]

The last regent I played look like yours. Good jump, in first place and then it hits the fan all want to fight. The game looks bleak, I want to give up, but hang in and all the fighting leads to some GL's and I get a few wonders and now they are a little less frightening from all the unit they threw at me. Do not use the civ2 placement as you will have too many squares outside the cities and useless. Let them overlap a bit to leave 18 or 19 squares for the cities. When a war is coming, try to enlist one or more to join on your site. I turned the tide in my last Monarch game by getting China to attack Japan, just give them what ever it takes lux is my fav, if not then tech/cash/maps.

[Willem]

Originally posted by vmxa1
When a war is coming, try to enlist one or more to join on your site. I turned the tide in my last Monarch game by getting China to attack Japan, just give them what ever it takes lux is my fav, if not then tech/cash/maps.

That's a good point, it can really help a lot. I was at war with the Germans and not doing all that great. So I turned to the Russians for help, who were also Germany's neighbour. It wasn't to long after that I had no German troops in my area at all, they had all been redeployed to fight the Russians. This gave me a good opportunity to reinforce and fortify the area.

[Travathian]

You need to make more money. How do you do that? Lower corruption and build roads everywhere.

You need luxaries. The higher the difficulty the more valuable they are.

You need to be prepared to make the switch to Republic. Think about what the key differences are. At your new governemt corruption will be lower, but you have to pay for units. Ok, how many untis do you have versus how many cities do you have with troublesome corruption. Also remember the terrain bonuses from leaving Despotism. Got a source of gold nearby, but never mined it cause it wont do anything for you? Go mine it, and make sure other valuable resources are terraformed before switching.
Make sure you have plenty of workers. I usually have 1.5 per city. 1 in each city radiius to just work on that. The others are road building to new city locations, resources, luxaries, and the nearest civs.

Oh, and like someone else said, read Vel's major strat postings, you might find some things you never knew existed.

[bsklepzig]

I've experienced the same problem. I do well on 1st and 2nd level (Chieftain and Warlord), then get wiped in Regent. My scenario looks like this:
I get to 3 or 4 cities and the other civs are at 5, 6 ... up to eight. They make an unreasonable demand (all my tech for "past favors") or bring troops and settlers into my terriatory w/o a ROP agreement, then decalre war when I object. They usually have a stronger army and I suffer. Or, if I'm holding my own, another civ will sense weakness and declare war over a minor issue or refused tribute.

I'll follow this thread with interest.

In the meantime, I'm experimenting with Warlord more, figuring that crushing dominance on that level may lead to survival on Regent.

A few thoughts:
* I'm tailoring the game to civ strengths as much as I can. (NOT tweaking the editor, but the game set-up choices.) (i.e. Americans (indust/expan) on a huge map/pangea to take advantage of friendly Goody Huts and speedy workers to get a core solidified before heavy contact with other civs.) (I'm trying the Chinese (indust/milit) on a Standard map/large continents, figuring the cheap barracks and early Unique Unit (along with those speedy workers) may help me with early wars.) Ultimately, my civ-choice is focused on getting me out of the ancient era alive (i.e. NOT choosing a science civ 'cause I hope for Space Ship launch) and at least in the same league (roughly) with the leaders, figuring human smarts should help me win the middle and end game. This is consistent with comments I've read on Diety strategy, where you start out insanely behind and have to claw your way to parity.

* I'm favoring industrious in general to get those cities connected, mines for better shield production, settler roads to luxuries, etc.

* I suspect I'm not using Pop Rushing under Despotism enough. The AI MUST be using it more than I to get all those offensive units and settlers cranked out.

* I may not be REXing (rapid early expansion) hard enough. I tend to explore a lot early, finding that juicy city location with wheat/river or 3-4 luxuries. The AI seems to crank and drop settlers every 4-5 squares regardless of environment.

* I trade often in the early game, figuring they're less likely to attack me if they have a financial interest in good relations. (To this end, I often am using my speedy workers to build roads to other civs cities. They're usually lazy about connecting to other civs and it allows me to trade luxuries between tech trades. Also, I'll give terratory maps or 1 or 2 gold as a gesture of good will just to keep them polite (doesn't always work, even at Warlord).

* I drop my first city wherever the game starts, figuring that moving even one square loses production and gives them the edge. That said, I'm not above starting a new game after seeing the 1st 9 squares offered. If I get 7 squares of desert, a hill and a mountain, I'll Quick Start a new game until I get a river or a food resource (or both!). It can be critical to even getting off the ground. (Mind you, I'll take that desert city for future saltpeter/oil/aluminum, but I'll take it with the 6th or 7th settler ...)

That's all I have on my mind right now.

Apolyton's Strategy Forum and Vel's Strat thread (along with the many expert commentators on Vel's thread) are AWESOME resources.

(Or, for fans of Jim Rome ... Thanks for the vine. War Strat. War Vel. War Civ3. Out.)

Ben

[Arathorn]

I didn't have the problems you were describing in my jumps up the difficulty chains. I have some suggestions:

- Trade, TRADE, [b]TRADE[\b] with the AI. Try to get some gold per turn deals in response. This will help the switch to another government form.

- Read a ton of the threads on this forum. Many are invaluable lessons.

- Keep an up-to-date, reasonable-sized military. Not only is it extremely useful for dealing with inevitable wars, the other civs respect you more if you have a larger military. And ALWAYS (ok, maybe not always but very, very often) build veteran units (that means barracks, boys!)

- Don't just expect to defend and win. Even if you want to be a peaceful builder, have some offensive units around (horsemen, knights, cavalry for much of the game -- a nice upgrade path, too). These can be used to defeat the encroaching enemy armies. Don't neglect artillery, even the lowly catapult is a help.

- Forget everything you learned in Civ II. I had to make this step before I became a reasonable Civ3 player. I mean, EVERYTHING, like what govt.s you think are good/bad, what units you think are good/bad, whether to contact the other civs to trade, EVERYTHING. Treat it like a whole-new game and I think you'll have more success.

Hope this helps!
Arathorn

[barefootbadass]

A few things, as bklepsig said, trade, and give them a financial reason to refrain from attacking you. Luxury trades are good, and if a couple of my trades involve them giving me several gold in per turn payments, I work in a token 1 or 2 gold per turn to them in other trades. You have financial incentive to do this as well.

Try to make your trades with the weakest civs if you have token trades running with the strong ones.

Also, stay out of double front wars at all costs. If someone else makes a reasonable demand for like a territory map while you are already at war, give it to them. Be sure to hire some allies if you your enemy has the economy to do likewise.

Set aside some high corruption cities with at least average food production to have a barracks and granary for rushing military or whatever culture improvements and settlers you want. Set these cities on wealth while you are waiting for 1 turn before it grows again to whatever size you need to rush.

Put conquered cities on wealth while the resisters are still around. Turn the citizens all into taxmen to get the population down while there are still resistors, and if the last one is gone, immediately pop rush down to one, instead of waiting for them to starve.

Unless you are actively managing a city set the governor to 'manage happiness' or whatever it is called. There is still a bug that occasionally a city will go into disorder without warning, but this will prevent a lot of wasted turns.

Sell techs for per turn gold. Try to keep them paying for one tech at a time unless their gold rate goes up a bunch. Monitor this by offering something really good and changing the payments till 'they would never accept such a deal'.

If you can't get less than 20 turn techs I would settle for 0 science rate.

[arborman]

I'll follow this thread with interest. When I moved up to Regent, I won the first game easily, and thought I had it figured out. However, each of the last 5 games have been brief and painful, for various reasons. Everyone, all 4 civs on my continent, declared war on me at once, and they had built up just outside my border first. Wham, I'm dead. Probably the most frustrating was the last game, where I took over my little continent fairly quickly, but it had no resources except spices and horses, and I couldn't find any sea routes to the rest of the civs. I gave up, after sacrificing about thirty galleons in various 'Columbus' hail mary sailings, and the other civs were building wonders easily 12 techs ahead of me.
I'll try some of the suggestions here, and see what happens. Good thread.