Thread Tools
Old October 31, 2000, 01:01   #1
SWPIGWANG The Second
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 89
The Theory of FUN
What makes games fun? Or what make Civ Fun? Without a clear focus any attempt to 'improve' the Civ formula will not work.

realism? control? think? power?
SWPIGWANG The Second is offline  
Old October 31, 2000, 01:23   #2
Dr Strangelove
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dr Strangelove's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
These games are called "god games." They should appeal to the inner megalomaniac.
Dr Strangelove is offline  
Old October 31, 2000, 02:01   #3
tonic
King
 
tonic's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,597
It's a synegistic blend of strategy and chance. The latter is an important fun ingredient in any game comprising as it does both suspense and an appeal to the universal gambling instinct.
tonic is offline  
Old November 1, 2000, 18:43   #4
Chris Pine FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
Posts: 11
Interesting question...

This happens to be the primary question of the last several years of my life. As you might imagine, talking to Sid is one of the best ways to learn about the 'Platonic Form of the Fun'; though sometimes it's like asking asking a musical genius how he makes good music: he'll tell you what's good and what's not, but the 'why' isn't always that clear. He just 'knows'. It's a bit spooky, actually.

Rather than try to summarize what I've learned from Sid, though (which has no coherent theme as I see it, except that it all happens to be really fun), I'll tell you my latest 'theorette'.

The most fun games have three components:
1) Offense.
2) Defense.
3) The Goal.

This is why I think Team Fort is so much more fun that HalfLife Deathmatch and why winning by colonizing Alpha Centauri is more fun that conquering the world. They both substitute a Goal with extreme success at offense. It's the same reason that Go is better than Chess. It's the same reason that I don't care much for most realtime strategy games.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy deathmatching and conquering the world, and even Chess on occasion. Actually, I'm a pretty big fan of AoK with the Conqueror's expansion. However, these games all lack a Goal (as distinct from offense and defense), and thus just aren't as much fun for me.

Games with all three elements are often fun right up to the end, even if you're losing, because losing doesn't mean being utterly eliminated.

I have more thoughts on this, but I'll leave it open for discussion.

Anyone?
Chris Pine FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 1, 2000, 19:35   #5
MarkG
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
[fun mode on]
look, look, a firaxian!
dear god, you are alive!!!
[fun mode off]

[serious mode on]
what i find civ games to be fun for two main reasons:
1) they are not one-sided: there is war and diplomacy, economy and trading, science and city building, etc etc...
2) they have a big time span: you start with arrows and you end up with tanks

in most strategy games you are focused on war, and the evolution of your units if from an archer with a 5 range, to one with 6, to one with 7, to...
[serious mode off]

[news reporter mode on]
so how is civ3?
<- (big happy you-can-tell-me-i-wont-tell-anyone smile)
[news reporter mode off]
 
Old November 1, 2000, 23:54   #6
Seeker
Emperor
 
Seeker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Yongsan-Gu, Seoul
Posts: 3,647
Hmmm...whatabout Sim City?

The idea of the computer game as a 'virtual sandbox'
Seeker is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 03:38   #7
rremus
Warlord
 
rremus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 154
Other games are fun too, but we keep coming back to civ... Because each time we play its different!
The number of posibilities and strategies to adopt is so big, that each time we play we fell it's a different game. One time your a maritime empire, one time your stuck somwhere in the mountains with a huge agresive empire at your borders, the combinations are endless!
So I think civ keeps on rockin' because each game really is a chalange, no matter how long you played before!
[This message has been edited by rremus (edited November 02, 2000).]
rremus is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 11:17   #8
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
I personally find games fun if there is a lot of exploring to do, little things to unlock, find, discover, and manipulate. I play a lot of RPG's for this reason. I want to get the cool magic weapons, the superbad instant death spell, etc. Other games I loved for this reason are games like X-Com, MOO and MOO2, Neuromancer, and tons of other classics. Diablo II is doing a good job of keeping this spirit alive with all the rare and unique items.

Another factor is the game's immersiveness, or more accurately, the lack of restriction on what you can do in the game. I think this is one of the reasons games like the Sims and SimCity are fun, because you always want to see what you can get away with, or how far you can take an idea before technical or other limitations make it infeasible. At the same time, as Chris mentioned, without a strong primary goal, the game at some point loses its appeal.

I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)

Dan
Firaxis Games
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 11:36   #9
rremus
Warlord
 
rremus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 154
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-02-2000 10:17 AMOther games I loved for this reason are games like X-Com


X-COM, that was an excelent game. I just can't understant how come such a good initial idea got worse with each sequel!
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-02-2000 10:17 AM
I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)


More than five year old... Let me think... Has anyone here played 'Vulcan'? That was the granpa of PanzerGeneral style games... But had a really smart feature: You did not move the units one by one, but you give them orders, then adversary gave his orders and then they all move, simultaneously! It totaly changed the tactics!
Another one was LaserSquad, on which X-COM I think is based.
Both were on Z80 platform...
rremus is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 14:11   #10
Seeker
Emperor
 
Seeker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Yongsan-Gu, Seoul
Posts: 3,647
Strategy
MOO2
Panzer General I
Imperialism I
Sim City 2000

RPG
Ultima6-7
Arena: the elder scrolls
World of Xeen

Shooter
the Fortress of Dr. Radiaki
Doom
Wolfenstein
Seeker is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 15:52   #11
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
What is the Civ-3 formula for FUN? Well, im of course bias, but for me it should mean:

Constantly being forced to make calculated choices that, whatever i choose; *always* going to give me both attractive benefits AND hard-to-swallow trade-offs, in different, but 100% non-extractable mixtures.

In short: Never being able to succeed in ALL areas (resource, science, economy, happiness, military, population, health and more) simultaneously, no matter how good i am. I MUST choose.
I can win, but i CANNOT win simultaneously over the AI in all and every areas. While im perhaps have a 100% comfortable lead in *one* area, the AI might just win the overall game by being even more supreme in another area.

The FUN-part is that i have to constantly worry/make calculated quesses - and never, never being 100% sure before the game is actually over.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 02, 2000).]
Ralf is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 17:43   #12
aCa
Chieftain
 
aCa's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 48
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-02-2000 10:17 AM
I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)



My favorite classic computer game have to be the orginal Civilization. Sid Meier managed to get me hooked. I played all day for many months

aCa@civ

Anonymous Civilization Addicts
aCa is offline  
Old November 2, 2000, 18:40   #13
Shogun Gunner
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildCivilization III Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCall to Power MultiplayerC3CDG Team BabylonPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Shogun Gunner's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia
Posts: 6,258
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-02-2000 10:17 AM
I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)

Dan
Firaxis Games


Do you remember the old "civ-style" game Empire?

This was a character based game (I think it started on IBM or DEC mainframes and was later ported to DOS). The game would start out with one city and unexplored territory. You could not see any of the board until you explored it (just like Civ). Different letters of the alphabet represented different units (B=Battleship, D=Destroyer, A=Army, T=Transport, etc) that were produced from your cities. There were no city functions other than producing military units and a settler type of unit to build new cities.

It most certainly lacked the finesse and complexity of Civ, but it was essentially a human player building a country using military units to protect the country and defeat AI players. I was hooked on this and later hooked on CIV.

It was a cool game in 1979. When my dad would go to bed, I would go to his office and use his terminal and 300 baud modem to connect to his office to play EMPIRE. (He kept the account name and password on a 3x5 under the phone -- classic mistake!!!
Shogun Gunner is offline  
Old November 3, 2000, 01:21   #14
Joe Bourque
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Trantor
Posts: 47
>>I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)<<

Star Control 2 and Ultima Underworld (1/2) win hands down. They're followed by Civ/MOO, and finnaly, just for nostalgia's sake, all the old SSI Gold Box AD&D games.

Joe


Joe Bourque is offline  
Old November 3, 2000, 02:20   #15
JESSVG01
Settler
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 8
quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 11-02-2000 05:40 PM
Do you remember the old "civ-style" game Empire?

This was a character based game (I think it started on IBM or DEC mainframes and was later ported to DOS). The game would start out with one city and unexplored territory. You could not see any of the board until you explored it (just like Civ.)


This game Empire is alive and well. There are some 50 or so servers that still run the game. There is a freeware client called WinAce that provides a GUI front end to the game. I'd not find it a surprise to know Sid played the Orginal before Civilization was created.


JESSVG01 is offline  
Old November 3, 2000, 12:24   #16
Nikolai
Apolyton UniversityC4DG The Mercenary TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
Nikolai's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 13,800
Actually, I don't know what is making a good game, other than it have some "magic" in it. The best examples are Civ and SimCity. It have something with being God, but the balance are also V E R Y important.

Heeey, I'm Chieftain!!!!

------------------
Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
birteaw@online.no
[This message has been edited by Nikolai (edited November 03, 2000).]
Nikolai is offline  
Old November 4, 2000, 02:59   #17
StormLord
Settler
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bloemfontein, OFS, South Africa
Posts: 6
I'm REALLY looking forward to Civ3.

One of the main elements of fun is being able to do many things, and each one should have some unpredictable consequences. (probably a form of chaos theory, because we even had this in Civ1)

Another thing is that the player should become immersed in the game, a good way to do this is to shape something (an empire or a character usually) around the player.

Also, lots of exploration is good, but there must be something to find... ofcourse

I know all of this has already been said, but I think a summary is always good for context.


My favorite classic games:
1. Civilization (1+2)
2. Anacreon (no graphics, no sound, beats MOO2 with
both hands behind it's back)
3. X-Com (1-4) (No.1 and 3 is in a constant battle to
be the best. I should make my own RTT
someday, to show how it should be done)
StormLord is offline  
Old November 4, 2000, 10:48   #18
Snapcase's Temporary DL
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
The factor of Fun in a computer game seems notoriously difficult to capture. Although one can usually pinpoint an area or feature as fun, it can sometimes be hard to say why, and how to transmute it into other areas as well. However, there clearly are some things that, at least in my opinion, contribute heavily to how good a game is. This post is rather long, and I apologise for that, but I just felt like writing a huge essay on the thing. Maybe I should have posted it as an article for the column instead.

Firstly, there is the important factor of Empathy and Antipathy. One of the failures of Civ, as far as I am concerned, is that it is in some ways a very academic pursuit; you're largely detached from the reality you're supposed to be playing in. No other Civs seem especially good or evil to you, they're just there to be played out against each other in a series of dry, repetitive diplomacy options. The other leaders do not have very fun personalities, just a series of similar templates. And the combat, well, symbolic, detached combat does not make you attached to your units in the same way as low-down gritty, realistic, well-animated combat does. SMAC attempted to remedy this to some extent, but I still think that the diplomacy was too formulaic, the faction leaders did not really act that differently and the story elements felt more like an annoyance than anything else. I think it is vitally important to introduce factors which increase your empathy for your Civ and your citizens into the game.

To begin with, the graphics definitely need a boost. The combat needs to be spruced up, your units and citizens need to feel real, substantial, personal. Secondly, the different civilizations need to feel different from you and each other, there should be cultural clashes, lingual problems, long-standing grudges and hatreds, self-possessed emperors and meek chancellors, evil despots and benevolent rulers, cowardly back-stabbers and holier-than-thou religious maniacs... And this should reflect into the diplomacy. The diplomacy screen should go beyond the very shallow formulas of previous games in the genre, and be fully-fledged cultural clash engines, like in Star Control 2 (for example). Finally, the story elements need to be emphasised more, and more spectacularly than the text messages in SMAC.

A second factor is the sense of achievement. When solving an intricate and complex problem I want to feel a huge sense of satisfaction over having done so. The most important factor here is an appropriate difficulty level, so that one can really feel happy with the achievement accomplished. Other things that help induce the fun factor here is getting something for your effort. A great throne-room/castle is nice, a good city view is always fun, wonder movies are essential, significant and good-looking civilopedia entries are crucial to help you relate to what you've just achieved, and so on. One crucial bit here is the satisfaction of creating some truly lethal tactical combination that can crush everything in its path, to have figured out a way to beat the system, etc., essentially similar to puzzle-solving.

A third factor I consider to be perhaps the most important is that of Creativity. To be brutally honest with you, I never played more than perhaps a dozen games of Civ2 and I have yet to finish a single one (I think I finished SMAC twice), yet Civ2 is still the game I have spent most time with in my entire life (together with Micro Machines 2, for similar reasons). The reason? The wonderful, flawed but wonderful, scenario editor that came with Fantastic Worlds. I'd sit around for hours and hours just designing units for scenarios that I never used later, creating implausible and unplayable mods like my Football Pitch scenario, and just having damn good fun. It is crucial for Civ3 to have proper text-parsers, proper graphics-editing capabilities, a good scripting language and/or macro language, to be totally editable in every way, etc. Absolutely crucial.


---

Favourite classic games:

The Secret of Monkey Island
Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers

(Micro Machines 2 and Civ2 were both '96, I believe)
 
Old November 4, 2000, 14:55   #19
Antonios
Settler
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Larissa,Thessalia,Hellas
Posts: 10
As one of the most famous writer from Hellas,called Kbafis, wrote in his poetry called {this is an island in Hellas(this the real name of the country you called Greece which in few words has a connection with slavery)(Greeks means slaves)}the most important think in an attempt is not the goal but what you make and face in order to reach the goal.The road which lead in success and what experience you get from the whole trip.He thinks that the attempt is a trip and the goal is the island you want to go.When you finally reach the island you understand that the island(the goal)is not as good as you thought.But what remains is the experience.I think that this is the real GOAL of trying to reach the goal.
Antonios is offline  
Old November 6, 2000, 19:57   #20
Maccabee2
Warlord
 
Maccabee2's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 121
Hands down, CivII!!!!!
Civ2's level of management was great. The total immersion of it was magnified by the genius of the Wonders video clips. CTPs little computer animations for wonders were disappointing by comparison.
Civ2s video moviettes for each wonder were better than just eye/ear candy. They made you feel your were there, and genuinely gave you a feel for that culture by exposure to their music, architecture, and indirectly, their values and priorities. That was the greatest part of Civ2's success for me. I'm still playing it, and CTP is sitting on the shelf! (I especially like the modern music played with the clip for Leonardo de Vinci's Workshop, implying that he was indeed a man ahead of his time!)
If Civ3 will repeat this method, they will have my money in their bank as soon as the game can be bought by any means.
Hint! Hint! Please don't opt for cheesy computer animations for your wonders! The video clips are a medium that won't wear out.
Next to the Wonders, the diplomacy was a constant energizer for me. That's why I chose it over the usual game of straight tactics, like Panzer General.
Maccabee2 is offline  
Old November 6, 2000, 21:39   #21
zyxpsilon
Warlord
 
zyxpsilon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Laval,Quebec,Canada
Posts: 128
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-02-2000 10:17 AM
I'd be interested to hear what everyone's favorite classic computer games are... and by classic I mean, more than five years old =)
Dan
Firaxis Games


P-A-C-M-A-N! I was faster than you, i scored Gigapoints and you made me eat some bulky bananas in a maze or two...

But more seriously (or is it?);

In my "freaky mind boggling case":CONFUSED:, Maxis's SimCity-2000 is extremely hard to compare with anything for a very simple reason, the SIMULATION of whatever they meant by it. That's my point here... surprise me, please me, make it so funny, it makes me smile forever.

And CIV's, of course!

zyxpsilon is offline  
Old November 6, 2000, 22:09   #22
Richard Bruns
King
 
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 1,579
I really like "Seven Cities of Gold."

You play a Spanish adventurer in the new world, and have to explore, interact with the natives, gain wealth, and eventually set up colonies. While technically a strategy game, the item managemant and interaction with the natives make it feel like an RPG as well. The gameplay was really fun, even though the setup was simple. There was no offense or defense, just exploration, diplomacy, item management, and of course the goal of setting up those colonies and getting them enough supplies.

I have no idea how old it is; it was a Dan Bunten game that originally came out for the Commodore 64. I got the PC version an a "Classics" pack that was in a bargain bin about five years ago. I heve never seen it or even heard of it since then. I think this is the best game that no one knows about. I really wish that someone would remake or re-release it, because it should not be lost to history.
Richard Bruns is offline  
Old November 8, 2000, 18:38   #23
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:31
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
Seven Cities of Gold was a classic. You could make a career out of raiding classic C64 games and remaking them.

Other "classic" C64 games I still think would make great games today:

Paradroid
They Stole a Million
Impossible Mission
Bruce Lee =)


Dan
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 10, 2000, 01:44   #24
Richard Bruns
King
 
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 1,579
Well, why aren't you making a career out of it? I'd love to play a version of Seven Cities of Gold where you have the option to really manage those colonies you create.
Richard Bruns is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:31.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team