Slowing Down Late Game Research

[Yxklyx]

I find that research goes way to fast in the latter stages of the game, so how about modifying the global research modifier in akphax.txt at certain points in the game - then reloading from a save. Say, in SP, when you get Fusion Power and then later at other discoveries. Or you could do it by year...

[mrdynamic]

Seems like changing the modifiers to in aplhax.txt after the games begins has no effect. Only before the game starts does this work. Ive tried changing the %research for standard plant from 100 to 39 to slow down research in the later stages of the game, but then my early tech research was way to long, something like 120 years for early techs.

I have not tried this change yet, but to delay tanscendance and make it more difficult, how about changing the project cost from its current number to somthing much larger, say x100 ??

Only once have I created a gravship, but never got to use it. I have never seen the AI create a gravship.

[Googlie]

You can always set the game preferences to "tech stagnation" - it has most impact on the mid to late game, which is when you want to be building some of these neat gizmos anyway before they become obsolete

(but still a decent player will be getting a tech every 2 turns in SP games versus the current every turn, or even multiple techs every turn)

Increasing the cost of the Ascent will just mean that you need more crawlers to complete in one turn - what you can do, if you are governor or have the empath guild, is activate the Scenario editor and then disable Ascent completely (You can also do it without guvship or the EG, but them you have the potential to se every faction's data and maps)

G.

[mrdynamic]

Even with tech stag I feel that the research was too fast, but I was on a tiny planet so that sets the research faster anyway, even with tech stag.

[Yxklyx]

O.K. So why is tech so easy in the latter stages? What is having the greatest effect? The secret projects? SE choices? Too much energy?

Well, I don't use crawlers - in fact I'm going to see if I can remove the supply ability from the game. Was also thinking of perhaps reducing copter movement to 4 or so and/or perhaps increasing chassis cost.

Gravships are basically just Needlejets that don't need to refuel - Copters still rule the skies.

[mrdynamic]

Energy, Lab & research facilites, certain citizens (like thinkers), certain SP's, all add to your research points needed for a particular tech.

Someday I would like to try out infantry with anti-grav struts before the game ends !

[Yxklyx]

Yes, but what has the BIGGEST effect? Perhaps it can be removed from the game.

[Adalbertus]

Yes, but what has the BIGGEST effect? Perhaps it can be removed from the game.

The single thing which seems to have the greatest impact is the SSC, further enhanced by crawlers, if you use them. But what I think is the main reason is that your empire grows exponentially whereas I think (I didn't bother to search the formula) that the technology cost increases quadratically, as it was in Civ I/II. In this case, there is nothing you can do, except going Fundy/Planned/Power or refusing to grow.

[mrdynamic]

The biggest effect I think, is that the cost of Technologies, and perhaps even special projects, are not expensive enough in relationship to the possible lab production of late game empires.

[mrdynamic]

Originally posted by Adalbertus


.... your empire grows exponentially whereas I think (I didn't bother to search the formula) that the technology cost increases quadratically, as it was in Civ I/II. In this case, there is nothing you can do.......

Are the individual costs of each technology, and SP, located in and can be modified in the alpha files? If so the question then is, what should the values for each of the techs/SPs be?

[Yxklyx]

No, the cost of the next tech is determined by the number of techs a faction has already discovered. SP costs can be changed but I don't think that will effect the game THAT much.

How about removing some or all of the LABS secret projects? I think there's too many SPs anyway. Remove NanoHospitals or whatever the last facility that increases labs is?

Remove the Cloning Vats perhaps.

Reduce the effect of special citizens.

Too many "Secret" techs? Perhaps remove one or more of them. Remove the Universal Translator SP.


How about reducing each faction's research social engineering by a step or two?

[Blake]

I find the best non-SSC non-crawler way to put your research through the roof is Pop-boom + transcends + dozens of Sky hydro sats. By far the best of those factors to remove is the pop-boom. This would be done by:
Disabling the CV SP.
Fiddling with growth settings in the Alpha.txt, including nuts-per-row to grow (defaults to 10, lower), and ofcourse growth of various SE choices.

The fixes go something like this:
Change nuts-per-row from 10 to 8
Add -2 growth to all Goverment SE's (except Demo, which becomes +0 growth, and including Frontier) _OR_ do a simialler thing, but with Future SE's, including NONE
Alter the Economies, reduce planned growth bonus to +1 and greens growth penalty to 0. Add/remove penalties/bonuses to balance. *Note, this step is not required for Windows SMAC, because the GA is broken.
Now, the best growth you can achieve is Demo (+0) Planned (+1) CC (+2) for +3 growth, not enough for pop-boom, even with GA thats only +5, making the only method for pop-boom Demo+Planned+Eudo+GA.

Another possible idea is to change the tech rate to about 50 and add bonuses as follows:
Economy: Simple +1 Research
Values: Survival +1 Research
Future: None +3 Research
(for total of +5)
So, as you start using the more advanced SE's your research rate slows, until at the end you have a research rate of half of usual.

[Yxklyx]

What's SSC? I like your last solution. Wouldn't POP booms be less of an issue if the specialists weren't so good?

P.S. If a base has a golden age and the faction has cloning vats does the base grow by 2?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

SSC= Super Science City consisting of usually the following:

Merchant Exchange
Super Collider
Theory of Everything
Every known lab enhancing facility

And tons o' crawlers/trawlers bringing in raw energy. Typically 1 SSC can in of itself when properly energy funded get you one tech/turn

As to your question of golden age and cloning vats = growth of +2 per turn. (I think you really mean growth = +6 and cloning vats as golden age in of itself does not give a pop boom.) The answer is no. The only times a base will grow more than 1 per turn is by adding colony pods back to the base in addition to the +1 pop per turn or by creche event.

My biggest concern about removing pop boom capability is that you would have to look long and hard at the Yanger and Sven as their inability to pop boom effectively (w/o Planeterya Transit Pod Booming) is an equalizer with the rest of the factions.

Og

[spartak]

How much energy do you normally have going into a science city?

I normally get between 200 and 250 - is that enough?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Gas,

I can't recall offhand a goodish number but something like double that seems to ring a bell.

Let me think.....

Thats say 20 squares worked average energy of 4 = 80
Trawlers including thermocline @ 6 energy ea = 60+ trawlers

That seems like a lot of trawlers, seems like it normally was about 40ish trawlers.

Ohh but I also forgot the energy sats and trade. And a largish portion of labs come in about that time as transcendi but that doesn't show as raw energy.

I can't recall its been too long and I wiped out all my saved games.

Sorry

Og

[Adalbertus]

Just an idea who like to mess in the Tech tree (which, I think, is possible, never tried that): Put a lot of do-nothing technologies in the tech tree. The discovery rate remains the same, but the really interesting things are delayed. That way, all sort of fine-tuning is possible.

[spartak]

Thanks Og

I better start crawlering but then I'm so far ahead I don't know if its worth it.

[wheathin]

How many techs can you add to the tree? I know there is one "User tech." Can you also use the "deleted" techs (2)? Can you add more to the end of the list?

[Yxklyx]

Seems like changing the modifiers to in aplhax.txt after the games begins has no effect.

Actually, that's not true. I changed this value to 10 and my research time for the next tech (Transendant Thought) went from 1 turn to 10 turns. I had to play a turn in order for it to take effect. So, one could conceivably take a break (save and reload with the changed value) every so often.

[Yxklyx]

So one rule that might help:

Whenever you discover a tech that gives you a new Reactor or Future Social Engineering Choice do the following:

1. save and exit
2. modify the alphax.txt file by reducing the tech discovery rate (from 100 to 50 then to 25 and finally to 10 - only three changes max per game).
3. start up and load the game

[wheathin]

Blake, I tried out your idea. I like it (progressive RESEARCH penalties). Question though:
If everyone starts out at +5, and that's the max, doesn't that wipe out the advantages of the Universiy and Aki-Zeta?

[Yxklyx]

I'm not sure I like Blake's last idea. Knowledge now only gives a +1 over Survival and Fundamentalism is effectively -3 since Simple is +1. Knowledge isn't as attractive as before and Fundy is much less so.

[mrdynamic]

Blakes idea has potential but Im not sure I like it either for the reason that Yxklyx stated and also because, now it allows for any faction to give themsevles a +5 research setting at any point of the game......Not that the AI would take advantage of this , but I do not think I would bother to use any other SE settings .. unless it was an emergency and I had to use Fundel and Power, or just wanted a temp boost in funds or something.

Advancing your tech rate, although not neccesary to win, is still somthing I always tend to always strive for, as lets face it, having tech another faction does not is an advantage in one way or another.

Getting rid of all lab enhancing research facilities, as stated by Blakes, from the game would be a good change in that no faction (like me) could take advantage of it.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Yxklyx
So one rule that might help:

Whenever you discover a tech that gives you a new Reactor or Future Social Engineering Choice do the following:

1. save and exit
2. modify the alphax.txt file by reducing the tech discovery rate (from 100 to 50 then to 25 and finally to 10 - only three changes max per game).
3. start up and load the game

I like this a lot. Just remember to restore the original settings before starting your next game.

That realistically means you'll change at fusion, thought control then cybernetic though.

Also, given that Singularity Reactors frequently come before Quantum on my normal research path, I'll be loath to take quantum until as late as possible in most games. Is quantum even required for the ascent? *Fitz searches his memory*

[Yxklyx]

I had double blind research in mind with this scheme so you couldn't plan on the techs when the change occured. I don't recall - does Thought Control and Cybernetic usually come before the last two reactors?

[wheathin]

Fundy already has a tech penalty - nobody goes into Fundy expecting to get a tech lead. Even compared to Frontier, Fundy is still a choice for war. And you will still want Demo for the pop booms. Both Demo and Fundy are good choices in certain situations. The real loser in Gov't choices is PS. But PS was always underpowered anyway...

For the Economic choices, FM and Green are still clear choices for certain situations, as is Planned for the boom. And all are still better than Simple.

[wheathin]

Here's my own re-done SE choices...

SMAC Social Engineering Choices
Number in paren is "point value"
Econ(2) Tal(2) Res Ind Grw Eff Sup Pla(.75) Mor(.5) Pol(.5) Prb(.5) Pla(.5)

New Choices	POSITIVE        		NEGATIVE      Total
Politics                           
Frontier:      	1 Research                       		1
Pol St(C2):    	2 Pol   2 Sup   1 Res        	2 Eff  	        2
Democ(E2):	2 Eff   2 Grw   	       	2 Sup           2
Fund(D2): 	2 Prb   1 Tal   2 Mor  		2 Res		2
Economics
Simple:         1 Research             				1
FM(B2):   	2 Econ  		    	3 Pla   5 Pol   0
Planned(D2):    2 Grw   1 Ind                   2 Eff   	2
Green(E3):      2 Pla   2 Eff   1 Mor           2 Grw   	2
Values
Survival:      				          		0
Power(C4):     	2 Mor   2 Sup  	2 Pla	   	2 Ind   	2.5
Knowl(B4):     	2 Res   1 Pla 	1 Eff		2 Prb   	2.75
Wealth(B3):    	1 Eco   1 Pla	1 Ind		2 Mor    	2.75

[gwillybj]

In alpha(x).txt:
50, ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard

Tech Stagnation ON
Spoils of War OFF
Blind Research ON or OFF (it won't matter)*
No Unity Scattering (few, if any, techs from pods)

Play as Believers with Fundamentalist + Planned + Power + Eudaimonic

*It won't matter how you research (Directed, Blind, or Double-Blind). You'll be running around with Lasers and Synthmetal for a long time.

[Blake]

Not quite, look at the title of the thread:
Slowing Down Late Game Research

The problem is the exponential growth of the economy overpowers the increase in tech cost - doubling the costs of the techs achieves little - other than making the early game drag by even more - the late game will still speed by.


Thought:
Hypothetically speaking, if you were to redesign the SMAC tech tree to increase the length of the late game, the way to do it would be to increase the base tech costs, and move several of the super-economy boosters into the early game. (Orbital Power Transmitters being one, super-formers, soil enrichers, advanced specialists, hybrid forests, hab domes to name just a few more).

This would mean your economy would build up quicker in the early game, but have less momentum later in the game due to fewer economy boosters. Thus, making the major fruits of the late tech tree military techs, increasing incentive to use the toys ("nothing else to build"). Ofc, crawlers and pop-boom would also have to be eliminated/crippled to prevent exploitation of the early economy boosters.

Making the early game slower is never going to achieve any meaningfull reduction in late game speed.