MIRV Missile Attack? - Page 2

genius23 · June 12, 2002, 23:47

missileboats are great for multiplayer, u dont even need PP to own with mirvs, simple arm fast eccm nukes will do great, since my customraces also revolve around unitele, i would sell marine barracks and build battleshiphulls filled with 2shot missiles until the commandpoints are used up, send in ur fleet of missileships together with an empty frigate, on 1st turn fire 1st salvo and turn around, on 2nd turn, fire the 2nd and move away from the enemy and retreat with all missileships, the empty frigate stays behind until the missiles hit (or miss), best targets are planets and starbase, that cannot retreat, since u probably lack dauntless guidance, if ur firepower is insufficient to take out both, starbase and missilebase, just destroy one and come back for the other a few turns later. if u do make it to the mirvs upgrade the battleships but include a deck of cheap nonmirved nukes to soak up any antimissilefire before the mirvs. when all enemies are destroyed or have fled ur retreated battleships will rejoin the empty frigate to mindcontroll the colony or bombard it to oblivion.
if the other guy digs in and creatively researches emg mercs to take orion, u will have difficulties destroying a heavy armor, reinforced hull, tritanium, ecm starbase, then dont try, blockade the system and use ur superior production to build lots telepathic spies, I once had such a researcher surrender to me after my spies sabotaged his starbase. a nice combo for this strategy is also feudal, telepathic, omniscient, stealth, large, rich, artifact, lowG HW, they can have a cruiserhull hovering over your newest colony very early, but they will fall behind if they dont succeed in mindcontrolling an alien homeworld within a few turns.

vmxa1 · June 13, 2002, 12:42

That method works fine in non MP games as well. Missile boats and Tele are bad news for AI, if you go conquering ASAP. Mind control is fun and no need to build transports, no need for GC bonus. Once you get warp dis add one to a ship and those ships can not retreat. Bust them and retreat if you can not kill all of them and the planetary defences that trip. Usually they fail to retreat anyway. They try, but I move as close as I can and fire 1st salvo. They seem to return fire the first round. I fire 2nd and last salvo and retreat all but one which runs. They some time try to retreat here, but often get killed anyway. At the pre-mirv stage they do not have enough beam offense to kill a ship in 2 or 3 rounds. They do not yet have the Warp so I get to leave. I may or may not lose my dither ship, it varies.

Spaced Cowboy · June 13, 2002, 17:26

I see, this is what I get for not reading all of the threads here. This was my favorite Se4 strategy. Build missle boats and stay out of range of the beamers. I never thought to build 2 shot MB and warp all but one out.

I sure hope the M003 guys are looking at these threads.

vmxa1 · June 13, 2002, 22:14

I should have stated that you retreat the dither ship once all salvos have hit.
I would make as many slots with missiles as I can. At the start hey will all be nukes with no improvements.
When you get Mercs, change a few slots of nukes to mirved and replacea few of the last slots with mercs.
This allows the nukes to take any anti missile defence and the mercs to do the damage. Mirv the mercs when you can and add fast to nukes. Add in Fast Racks so you can fire both salvos in one shot to get out sooner as they are starting to get some decent beam damage. Actually nukes can be improved to last for a long time, but better missiles are best for the real hitting. Nukes mirved make great shields for your better missiles, but they should be first ones fired.
Missile boats can be used with any race.

The Mad Monk · June 14, 2002, 05:06

Sounds like what I do -- clusters of small 'fire 'n forget' ships are good for any fleet. Do you put all the launchers into a single battery, or split them up? I usually split them up, so I can scale the damage or target several vessels at once.

moomin · June 14, 2002, 07:00

Very Early MIRV Missile Frigate:

Battle Pods
1 Fast Missile
2 MIRV Fast Missile

This is usually the ship I take out the second race with. The first war does not have MIRV yet. Note that ECCM isn't really neccessary at this stage of the game.

Anyone knows why the 1 Missile is first, btw? Yes, there is a good reason

Zealot · June 14, 2002, 10:22

Uhhh I want to know why!!! I usually put it in second place!

Zealot · June 14, 2002, 10:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Forrest Gimp
Earth calling Zealot....finish your soup and give a time to duel....

Hey wise guy why didn't you send me a private message?

I completely missed this until today!

vmxa1 · June 14, 2002, 12:20

I use as many slots as I can, that is I go
nuke
nuke
until I run out out of space or slots.
I do not put eecm on missiles as by the time I have that and they are small enough to hold them, I switch to beamers.
To me the the first slots are for CHAFF, that is why they need FST when you get it. I will not make many firigates, in fact if I am Tele, I do not make any if I can get away with it. I will go for Cruisers so they can Mind control.
nuke fst (maybe mirv
"
nuke fst mirv heavy arm or merc mirv fst
" use all but the last two slots
Pulson
"
Make as many in each slots of two shots as you can fit.
This is roughly how I make them. I am not saying this is the best way, but it does the job. If you are using Crusiers or BB you can move up on the first round and fire. This gives them less time to counter the missiles and you will not get bust by them at this stage. By the time they can pose a threat, I switch to beam ships. I just used this on Huge, impossible 8 players last night as Uni Tol. Without Creative, if you do not get some steals, it may force you to wait longer to switch to beams. That happened to me as I had only Laser for beams until I researched Plasma Cannons. They sucked too as the anntenuation made them do so little damage. Once I got Disrupters, I when to Titans and dropped missiles. The lack of some of the enhancements for beams made it weak until I could go Titan and then steal some improvements. NO race had relations with me at any time (not repulsive).

moomin · June 14, 2002, 17:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
Uhhh I want to know why!!! I usually put it in second place!

Ok. I might as well let you in on the secret... when you fire the entire missle-volley, and the comp targets it, any hit will "take" from the top down. So the puny missile is the one to go first, and the mighty MIRV has a better chance to reach the target!

Spaced Cowboy · June 20, 2002, 09:14

I've always noticed that my chances of hitting a missle with point defenses are very slim.

vmxa1 · June 20, 2002, 11:27

Me too, I often ignore them. I will put in marine killing guns to stop boarding if I have them. Missible ships (with or with out Fast Racks) do not stick around long enough to use either PD or marine blasters.

Spaced Cowboy · June 20, 2002, 14:28

So then when I'm making a gun boat, what do I put in it to shake off enemy missles?

Garth Vader · June 20, 2002, 14:56

I always put battle scanner on my beam ships. In the early game I just use PD lasers, autofire and continous. They are great at shooting down nuke missiles but get worse as the missile tech increases.

In later designs I use a few continous neutron blasters as missile shooters/marine killers.

Once you get higher tech than that it's real easy to shoot them down.

Spaced Cowboy · June 20, 2002, 16:58

Yeah, I almost never get BS cuz it conflict with something else that I cannot remember. I think that it is tach comm that gives you the +1 command point. I could prolly live without it, but takes a while to get the +2 one.

Anyway by the time nukes are not being used, they are squashed against the shields anyway.

What about pd phasors? They seemed to do somewhat of a better job the last time that I played.

Zealot · June 20, 2002, 17:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Garth Vader
I always put battle scanner on my beam ships. In the early game I just use PD lasers, autofire and continous. They are great at shooting down nuke missiles but get worse as the missile tech increases.

If you have Battle Scanners, and lasers with af, continuous and no range dissipation you'll wipe out all missiles until the opponent has zortium armor. If they get zortium and you don't then you're screwed anyway...

vmxa1 · June 20, 2002, 18:31

Yes. I have to pass on Battle Scanners most of the time for TacComm (I think) and the + to commnd points. If I want to use Tol and make BB, I will then get the BS as I do not need the command points and a laser BB with BS is going to whack down Star Bases early on using just laser gun with a few mods. I will then make the left over space as lasers with PD, but they are not worth much. If the game goes far enough to switch to beamers (either I lost or I am taken over), I do not care much about missiles. I will likely have taken Orion and have ships that are not going to be bother by missiles. In short, missiles are either too few and too weak to take me down or I am doomed anyway. Either way I do not concern myself with anti missile stuff other than an after thought. I am more concerned with them sending boarding parties to grab my ship or star base as I often have taken -ground combat and poor research for marines (no troop pods, no assault shuttles). I have lost more planets because they captured my SB. If they do not grab it, I would have won the battle. Of course if I had planetary missile bases, I would have been ok too.
Often I do not have even fighters.

Spaced Cowboy · June 21, 2002, 08:38

Yeah,

I try really hard to trade for the planet defenses early on, even if it means giving up something way better. After the beginning of the game, it does not seem to pay to make trades. I really do not like the tech trading scheme. Civ3 is much better with being able to table what you want. The ai in Moo2 seems to have this option while you do not!

Garth Vader · June 21, 2002, 11:02

If they get zortium and you don't then you're screwed anyway...

Only if they have class 3 shields or higher, or heavy armor, or are cybernetic.

I am usually cybernetic and I have cut down neutronium armored enemies when I had only tritanium with armor piercing lasers.

Spaced Cowboy · June 21, 2002, 11:15

I'm sorry. I've forgotten what cybernetic was. And how doth is help you in combat?

vmxa1 · June 21, 2002, 12:23

Cybers has auto repair as a trait. It is IMO a very poor pick for play against AI at impossible. Of course like any pick it can be taken and over come (so can Feudal), but it is not a real useful choice. In a Huge map you will not make contact very soon, very often, so by the time you go to battle, you do not need it. How many put auto repair unit in their ships? I never do. How many rounds do early battles go? Two or three rounds maybe. Yes I have had battle where my star base went down and would not have if I was Cyber, but that was not my biggest problem. Yes you could capture a star base and defeat a planet if you were CybTele as it would repair each round until the planetary defences were defeated. Do you really need that? Would it ot be better to have a boost in production or research? Most of the time I am able to beat their ships anyway ortherwise I am in big trouble. It does 10% per round. ARU is cumultive and and Leader traits would be added as well. Against humans I think it would be poor as they would direct all fire to one target until it was gone, hence no reair. If they could not destory the ship, it would not matter if you have Cyber or not, would it.

Garth Vader · June 21, 2002, 12:42

True, it's not the best pick against humans, but in a close battle against the AI it's a life saver. When using missiles the AI sends enough that it thinks will win, then switches targets. So the repairing is the difference between keeping and loosing the ship.

Guess it's just a difference in play styles!

Spaced Cowboy · June 21, 2002, 14:59

So, is that the only cyber trait?

vmxa1 · June 21, 2002, 15:04

Yup, it will put you over the hump if the difference is less than 10% armor damage or 5% systems damage. In the beginning you would have say a Cruiser with 90/30 structure and armor (reinforce hulls no Heav Arm). So your margin is at most 12 hit points. That can work. It more likely pays off with a Star base. Soon you will be at the point where you do not care as once you go on the attack, you have the best of it, otherwise you would wait. Those 4 picks can do some good in production or research or food. In fact just avoiding having to take negatives to offset that pick is useful. IMO it does not matter what you choose for any level other than Impossible, you can win regardless on lower settings. I do not think that is true at Impossible level. You can lose there with just a bad location, let alone some of the racial picks. Feudal and Uncreative come to mind as two that can be deadly. Cyber is not deadly, just not required IMO. I am not trying to change anyones play stye, only want to give an assement for others. Especially if someone can point out where I got it wrong, in case I missed a point or misunderstood the workings. I mean it may be fun or funny to see the ship come back to health. One thing that is useful about it is if your are not in your own system and are out blasting planets, being Cyber can get and keep your ships healthly for faster assaults. Again though, do I need that?

Spaced Cowboy · June 21, 2002, 15:20

doesn't autorepair tech take care of the after battle injuries?

vmxa1 · June 21, 2002, 19:23

Yes ARU will do 10% repair to armor and structure and 5% to systems each round. If you are at a home system all is repaired automaticaly done, if not some is repair anyway and the ARU will kick in its part. The only gotcha is if you have a battle and goto your planet and are jumped as you enter, the repair for being home is not applied until after the battle (if you survive). A trick can be used where you bring an outpost ship and drop on a planet in the system you want to attack. If you do that, you get the full repair as if you are home. This allows you to attack again with repaired ships.

genius23 · June 23, 2002, 03:03

after battle your ships will be repaired if u are either cybernetic, have an ARU on board, you have the adv dmg controll tech or the ship is piloted by a leader with the engineer ability. iirc ARU repairs twice as much as cybernetic repairs and both stacks.
cybernetic is a bad pick if you are playing on a high difficulty or vs humans because ur pop will consume 1/2 production unit each turn per pop unit and that slows down early devellopment (maybe it works out with tolerant+production bonus) but there is a cheesy way to use the cybernetic pick, initially start the game as lithovore, which helps u devellop, once you research genetic mutation, go cybernetic, which frees up the picks from lithovore as those 2 are mutually exclusive and invest them in something like warlord/+ship offence/+ship defence now massproduce with ur well develloped productionbase selfrepairing ships with experienced crew (absence of farming tech should not hurt at that point, since u only require 1/2 food per pop) and win the game.
however I do like cybernetic, imagine a transdimensional, +50 ship defence, cybernetic warlord, incorporating some more devices like augmented engines, inertial stabilizer, reinforced hull and one of your ships could defeat a whole fleet of the ai alone by dodging most of the shots and repairing the damage they do take. ofcourse that would be pointless vs a human player, who would simply design ships with weapons that allways hit and with a powerrace would have virtually won the game even before the cyber transD warlord has finished building automated factories. i simply like it when a small fleet of my newly designed shipclasses can stand against an enemy superior in number and technology, as vader said, they might have neutronium and you tritanium, now that will be a glorious battle. CHARGE!

vmxa1 · June 23, 2002, 13:36

My only question is on the evolution. I am not sure you could make the change you mentioned. I have tried a few times to switch race traits on the far right list and it did not let me change them. I could not even drop a pick from there. The same for Gov picks. This makes sense and would be wise to prohibits that. Those picks are part of you. Picks like +food and production and such are not and can be changed or add or removed. If you have spare picks you can add some such as Warlord or Omi. I can not recall if I ever tried to add a pick that is mutually exclusive such as Creative and UnCreative, when I had one.

Spaced Cowboy · June 24, 2002, 09:29

Hey, when you guys are talking about the ARU, it is automatically added to your ships once you get the tech right?

vmxa1 · June 24, 2002, 12:17

Sorry you have to build it. Go to design and it is shown as a special (if you have the tech). Cybers have the racial trait that does the same thing. It is as if you had one built on all ships. Same thing if Sparky is in your fleet.