The Value of Critics

Roy H Smith · February 7, 2002, 22:51

From: MrFixitOnline

"All previous versions of Civilization shipped with a map editor, but scenarios were very tricky to design, and so this time there is a full scenario editor included. It feels a little shoddily made, and compares rather poorly with the contemporary scenario editors of games like Age of Kings, but is a huge improvement upon the text file fiddling of old. Unlike other scenario developers, Civilization III is vastly customisable, and this is a facet of the game often overlooked. If you don't like an aspect of the game, like the suffocating corruption, then simply edit the rules and make the game play as you want. Civilization II was modified so much that almost entirely new games were formed from its chassis, and the more powerful editing tools of part III offer hope for even more variation."

What do you think?

yin26 · February 7, 2002, 22:53

LOL! Another expert fires up the load screen and comes to more brilliant conclusions!

Civ3: Best Editor Ever!!!

Encomium · February 7, 2002, 23:05

OK then,

1. How do I toggle ON the Cheat Mode in Civ III??

2. How do I build scenarios as we all did in Civ II??

3. I do I turn off (or minimize) this Culture Flipping CRAP??

4. How do I get bombers to sink warships??

5. How do I get privateers and submarines to damage the trade and commerce of an enemy civ when they are on his trade routes?? (That is the main purpose of naves, which is unknown to Foraxis).

6. How do I allow an invading force to use roads in enemy territory??

7. How do I upgrade units in an Army??

8. Why don't Great Leaders supply a combat bonus??

9. How do I cut back on the absurdly long lag time between turns with many civs??

10. How do I stop the rampant AI cheating??

11. Why is the AI Advsors, especially the Diplomatic one, so stupid and suicidal??

And so much more.

Can I Edit THOSE, Firaxis???

I thought not.

OneInTen · February 8, 2002, 01:11

I think this line is key:

Quote:

the more powerful editing tools of part III offer hope for even more variation.

(emphasis mine)

In the future, once the editor is completed (as Firaxis have acknowledged the editor is not yet complete but will be in the future), then it may be a more customisable game than civ 2. Thus, there is hope.

Besides, for those users who aren't so technical, the editor as it stands is already more powerful to text files which were an inaccesable medium to them.

Not everyone is a power user you know.

I think it was a pretty fair and even handed synopsis really.

yin26 · February 8, 2002, 01:12

Quote:

Civilization III is vastly customisable, and this is a facet of the game often overlooked.

No emphasis needed.

Dida · February 8, 2002, 01:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Roy H Smith
From: MrFixitOnline

"All previous versions of Civilization shipped with a map editor, but scenarios were very tricky to design, and so this time there is a full scenario editor included. It feels a little shoddily made, and compares rather poorly with the contemporary scenario editors of games like Age of Kings, but is a huge improvement upon the text file fiddling of old. Unlike other scenario developers, Civilization III is vastly customisable, and this is a facet of the game often overlooked. If you don't like an aspect of the game, like the suffocating corruption, then simply edit the rules and make the game play as you want. Civilization II was modified so much that almost entirely new games were formed from its chassis, and the more powerful editing tools of part III offer hope for even more variation."

What do you think?

LOL. Another overhyped aspect of the game.

OneInTen · February 8, 2002, 01:27

Indeed yin, because I believe it to be correct.

Ability to make scenarios and vast customisability are not the same. Related, but not the same.

yin26 · February 8, 2002, 01:33

Yep, this is why all the people who want to tweak and mod Civ3 are simply beside themselves with joy!

OneInTen · February 8, 2002, 01:39

I can:
Add units
Remove units
Change unit costs/values

Add techs
Remove techs
Change tech costs/effects

Add buildings
Remove buildings
Change builing costs/effects

Add luxuries
Add stretegic resources

Change map sizes
Change corruption factors
Change AI advantages/disadvantages per difficulty level

As well as a bunch of other stuff that I know is there and I can't think of off the top of my head while at work.

Lets get some perspective here - it may not be everything some people wanted, but it still is a vastly customisable game. Not completely customisable, that is true, but I think it is a fair assessment to call this vastly customisable.

yin26 · February 8, 2002, 01:41

Fair enough. Meanwhile, the mod community thinks the editor is total fraud.

OneInTen · February 8, 2002, 01:52

Then I guess I'm indirectly saying that I think that this review is fairer and less biased than the mod community's review of the editor then, aren't I?

If they really sare calling it a "total fraud" that is.

yin26 · February 8, 2002, 01:57

Considering that some of the most ardent fans of Civ3 are modders and they have, one after the other, thrown their arms up at not being able to do basic things with the editor, what you are really saying is that Civ3's editor is good enough for the person who really doesn't intend to do much with it.

In that regard, Civ3 is stellar.

OneInTen · February 8, 2002, 02:33

I'm saying it's able to vastly customise the existing game. It's probably not capable of creating a new game (which is what a mod really is).

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 10:23

Quote:

I'm saying it's able to vastly customise the existing game.

Yes, and I can declare that pigs fly by redefining "fly" to mean "wallow in mud".

Zoid · February 12, 2002, 10:29

As always yin and Lib hit the nail right on the head...

ACooper · February 12, 2002, 11:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamrat X
As always yin and Lib hit the nail right on the head...

But it was the wrong nail! (So sorry, couldn't help myself)

Truth is you can do lots with the editor, but you need a third party program or "hacked" editor and even then it's a pain in the rear. Methinks once Firaxis completes the editor a lot of the critics will calm down some. If not, well, I don't want to go there.

ACooper · February 12, 2002, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
OK then,

1. How do I toggle ON the Cheat Mode in Civ III??

Look on the main news page it tells you how there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
2. How do I build scenarios as we all did in Civ II??

This is not Civ2. You will never be able to build scenerios the same way as in Civ 2. (Maybe you should go back to Civ2?)

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
3. I do I turn off (or minimize) this Culture Flipping CRAP??

There have been so many threads about this. If I thought you really cared I'd show you some.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
4. How do I get bombers to sink warships??

Do we have to answer that again!!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
5. How do I get privateers and submarines to damage the trade and commerce of an enemy civ when they are on his trade routes?? (That is the main purpose of naves, which is unknown to Foraxis).

This also has been answered repeatedly. Trade routes ala CTP do not exist.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
6. How do I allow an invading force to use roads in enemy territory??

You can't. It's a feature to make war more difficult. "War is hell"

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
7. How do I upgrade units in an Army??

Wine 'em, dine 'em, pay 'em well. Well maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
8. Why don't Great Leaders supply a combat bonus??

They do. They give you armies!

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
9. How do I cut back on the absurdly long lag time between turns with many civs??

Buy a new computer. Run the game with 8 Civs as it was intended.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium 10. How do I stop the rampant AI cheating??

For the 999th time. WHAT CHEATING? I've already exposed most of what you call cheating as you inability to understand the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium 11. Why is the AI Advsors, especially the Diplomatic one, so stupid and suicidal??

The advisors just don't like you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Encomium
And so much more.

Can I Edit THOSE, Firaxis???
I thought not.

Do yourself a favor, go back and play Civ2. You are obviously not mature enough for this game.

DrFell · February 12, 2002, 12:06

'This is not Civ2. You will never be able to build scenerios the same way as in Civ 2. (Maybe you should go back to Civ2?)'

Shame isn't it, no scenarios at all. And to think I thought this game was supposed to be an improvement over civ2. Ah well, looks like this games going to get boring a few years earlier than it could have.

'Do we have to answer that again!!!!!'

Yeah exactly, it doesn't happen. No more ridiculous deign descision in the whole game than that one.

'For the 999th time. WHAT CHEATING? I've already exposed most of what you call cheating as you inability to understand the game.'

Hmm, maybe the unsinkable galleon on sea/ocean squares, the number of units the AI gets early in the game (for free) and production bonuses. I'm not complaining about the cheats as they're neccessary for the AI to be even close to challenging, but you can't deny the AI cheats.

'Do yourself a favor, go back and play Civ2. You are obviously not mature enough for this game. '

Or like me, so disenchanted by the poorly thought out rules, the caps on strategic descisions comapred to civ2, the slowness of the game, the lack of scenarios, and a load of other things I won't bother to mention.

ACooper · February 12, 2002, 12:19

I'm sure that the vast majority of Civ players have never played a scenerio and never will.

A ship can't be sunk because it represents a whole fleet. Never ever has a whole fleet been sunk. never...

The "unsinkable galley" is a bug and slated to be fixed. Extra units are there for balancing. These are all well known and not really "cheats" as much as design/play balancing decisions.

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 12:23

Quote:

A ship can't be sunk because it represents a whole fleet.

Perhaps. You'd think, though, that a "whole fleet" might not ever fail in its bombardment of a seaside road.

DrFell · February 12, 2002, 12:28

'I'm sure that the vast majority of Civ players have never played a scenerio and never will.'

I'd be suprised to hear that, considering scenarios came with all incarnations of civ2.

'A ship can't be sunk because it represents a whole fleet. Never ever has a whole fleet been sunk. never...'

An aircraft carrier represents a whole fleet of carriers?

'The "unsinkable galley" is a bug and slated to be fixed.'

It's a bug that AI units can move harmlessly over sea and ocean? Seems to me more a cheat because the AI cannot handle the human rules.

'Extra units are there for balancing. These are all well known and not really "cheats" as much as design/play balancing decisions.'

Getting free units and cheaper techs/units/improvments are still cheats, even Firaxis calls them cheats.

ACooper · February 12, 2002, 12:43

I too would lilke to see ships be able to be sunk. If you can destroy an army of tanks, why not a fleet of ships? The point is you can't. You need to bomb them and then finish them off with one of you naval units (which is realistic)

Trust me. The majority of people who have played and still play Civ don't even know all these scenerios exist. The people who come here and other sites like this are the minority by far.

Whether you call something a cheat or not it doesn't really matter. I will not argue that point.

The whole point was that Enco has made absurd claims to the AI "cheating" which have been exposed as his lack of knowledge on how the game works. If he makes generic statements that the AI cheats and has been proven wrong repeatedly in the past. His future statements should be challenged.

Ironikinit · February 12, 2002, 13:01

When you trade maps with the AI, you see their map. Painfully obvious, yes?

Well, take a look at those maps. Are they exploring more than they should?

When you see AI galleys on ocean squares, I think you'll find that the AI civ in question has mastered navigation. Your galleys can sail open seas after getting navigation, too.

So I'm told. I never kept a galley around to check. I believe it, though.

Anyway, that's just one of the so-called cheats that Eco rants about, ignoring explanations.

I don't pretend to believe that the AI plays by the same rules as the human. But not everything is a "cheat", either. Sometimes it's playing by the exact same rules, and Eco, among others, will insist that it's cheating, and that gets tiresome, esp. if the accuser is obnoxious and unwilling to listen.

Eh, at least Eco seems to play the game, unlike some of our enfants terrible.

And yes, DrFell, an aircraft carrier represents more than one ship IMO. I don't think of a rifleman unit as a single guy with a rifle. Do you?

I did play the scenarios that came with Civ 2 a couple times. I think it had one for Rome and one for WWII. I much preferred the random maps, personally. Maybe someday I'll look into the scenarios people have made up for it, if my version will play them.

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 13:17

Quote:

I too would lilke to see ships be able to be sunk. If you can destroy an army of tanks, why not a fleet of ships? The point is you can't. You need to bomb them and then finish them off with one of you naval units (which is realistic).

I see. Perhaps the U.S. Navy suffers from a psychosis:

Quote:

The U.S. Fleet's Pearl Harbor base was reachable by an aircraft carrier force, and the Japanese Navy secretly sent one across the Pacific with greater aerial striking power than had ever been seen on the World's oceans. Its planes hit just before 8AM on 7 December. Within a short time five of eight battleships at Pearl Harbor were sunk or sinking, with the rest damaged. Several other ships and most Hawaii-based combat planes were also knocked out and over 2400 Americans were dead.

Surely, if one ship represents a whole fleet, then one plane must represent the equivalent of a Japanese carrier force. No?

Soren Johnson · February 12, 2002, 13:33

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell

'The "unsinkable galley" is a bug and slated to be fixed.'

It's a bug that AI units can move harmlessly over sea and ocean? Seems to me more a cheat because the AI cannot handle the human rules.

It is neither a bug nor a cheat. The AI can move galleys over oceans because it has discovered Navigation or Magnetism. The human can also move galleys over oceans once s/he has discovered Navigation or Magnetism.

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 13:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
Perhaps. You'd think, though, that a "whole fleet" might not ever fail in its bombardment of a seaside road.

Perhaps because the "seaside road" is a representation of "all roads within a 100x100 miles area"?

ACooper · February 12, 2002, 13:38

Thank you for clearing that up Soren.

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 13:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
Surely, if one ship represents a whole fleet, then one plane must represent the equivalent of a Japanese carrier force. No?

And did the plane (Japanese carrier force) sink the battleship (A fleet in Pearl Harbor), or only heavily injure it by sinking 5 of 8?

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 13:49

Quote:

Perhaps because the "seaside road" is a representation of "all roads within a 100x100 miles area"?

Of course. That would explain why it takes so long to circumnavigate the map. One water tile represents the Pacific Ocean.

Quote:

And did the plane (Japanese carrier force) sink the battleship (A fleet in Pearl Harbor), or only heavily injure it by sinking 5 of 8?

Good thing they didn't use two planes, eh?

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 13:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
Of course. That would explain why it takes so long to circumnavigate the map. One water tile represents the Pacific Ocean.

Not the pacific, but a 100x100 miles water tile on a huge map though.

Navies are ways too slow, point for you, but that's editable at heart's content. But making a ship get everywhere in 1 turn would make the game somehow wrong, ain't I right? There must be a border, where realism ends and workarounds for game's sake start. After all, it has not to be 100% realistic... it has to be a game and give some fun.

There's a lot left to do to achieve this goal though.