February 11, 2002, 01:04
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#1
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Settler
Local Time: 20:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Columbus
Posts: 19
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Civilization = Van Halen
The ongoing debate between the "fanboys" and the "whiners" reminds me of the fans of a certain rock band about 15 years ago.
For those of you who either aren't fans of hard rock or were too young, when Van Halen came out in 1978 it was a stunning record (yeah record, not CD), highly original and just totally kicked a$$. Van Halen became extremely popular with a large and fanatical fan base. This continued for several years until singer David Lee Roth left the band. Sammy Hagar replaced him, and after that Van Halen's sound was forever changed. A good sized number of former fans (one could say a "vocal minority") claimed that the new incarnation of the band sucked and they were only interested in making money (sound familiar?). Meanwhile despite the protestations of their former fans, Van Halen sold more albums and singles and were generally more successful after Roth left. Yet to this day, most metal fans will tell you that the David Lee Roth-era Van Halen was the greatest rock band ever. Meanwhile not a lot of people make the same claim about Van Hagar.
So what does this mean? David Lee (or Sid and Brian) have left. Civ plays different. A lot of people like Civ 3, and a lot of people have bought Civ 3. But a lot of people don't like it, because it is not really the same game that blew everyone away 10 years ago. I have played Civ 3 and to me it's okay. Not great, not all-out addicting like when I brought home the original, just okay. Some parts are good, some really annoying - sorta like Sammy Hagar-era Van Halen. In 10 years, people will still be saying that Civ and Civ 2 were the greatest games ever made. Not many people will be saying the same about Civ 3.
The "whiners" wanted to be blown away, just like Civ 1 and Civ 2 did. Perhaps it's a bit much to ask that a 10 year old game concept be as mind-blowing nowadays.
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February 11, 2002, 06:13
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#2
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Prince
Local Time: 20:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand.
Posts: 689
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An inteesting comparison, BucksRock. There certainly is a desire for civ fans to want to be "blown" away. I know I wanted to get that "one-more-turn" syndrome back in civ 111.
Who says there are no "moral" lessons to be learned from big band rock'n'roll?
Note, though good, no Van Halen era was the greatest.
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February 11, 2002, 06:45
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#3
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Prince
Local Time: 20:26
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Yep, Interesting post, But i dont think it's too much to ask for Civ III to blow us away. I think a lot think that, if certain things were changed/fixed in Civ III, it would be a very good game indeed.
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Up The Millers
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February 11, 2002, 06:50
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#4
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Deity
Local Time: 08:26
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Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
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Perhaps it's just that Civ fans aren't the sorts to get carried away with mob reactions (mindless like/dislike of something), and we expect too much of an improvement on the other games due to our discernment.
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February 11, 2002, 09:44
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#5
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Prince
Local Time: 16:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 578
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But don't forget
That in Infrogrames and Firaxis labled Civ3 as the Greatest Civ game ever in thier advertisments and on thier web pages and here if I am not mistaken, and also in interviews in magazines.
I beleive IMHO it's thier fault that we have had Very High expectations of this game and expected to have our socks knocked off us.
Davor
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February 11, 2002, 10:30
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#6
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,755
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Re: But don't forget
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Originally posted by Yolky
That in Infrogrames and Firaxis labled Civ3 as the Greatest Civ game ever in thier advertisments and on thier web pages and here if I am not mistaken, and also in interviews in magazines.
I beleive IMHO it's thier fault that we have had Very High expectations of this game and expected to have our socks knocked off us.
Davor
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Oh come off it. Hyping a product is just standard market practice. Of course they're going to say it's the best ever, I wouldn't expect anything else. If you're so easily swayed that you believe every product pitch that comes your way, then you're due for a life full of disappointments and an empty bank account.
Last edited by Willem; February 11, 2002 at 11:56.
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February 11, 2002, 11:10
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#7
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King
Local Time: 15:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
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Re: Re: But don't forget
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Originally posted by Willem
Oh come off it. Hyping a product is just standard market practice. Of course they're going to say it's the best ever, I wouldn't expect anything else. If you're so easily swayed that you believe everything product pitch that comes your way, then you're due for a life full of disappointments and an empty bank account.
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That's how I viewed AvP2. I knew it was going to be a flop for my game tastes.
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I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
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February 11, 2002, 11:12
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#8
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Warlord
Local Time: 20:26
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Posts: 187
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Sure, but what kind of slogan would "Civilization III: Rewrite History with the 264th Greatest Game of All Time" be?
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February 11, 2002, 11:17
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#9
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Prince
Local Time: 20:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tory Party of 'Poly
Posts: 523
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reason they sold more when he left is cos van halen then proceded tro turn into a pop group.
compare Van Halen (the first album) to Van Halen 3 (the last). no comparison. each album seemed to become more pop then the last.
and after Eruption and Spanish fly, nothing else quite cuts it.
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eimi men anthropos pollon logon, mikras de sophias
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February 11, 2002, 12:11
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#10
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Prince
Local Time: 15:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 657
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We have yet to see whether the analogy also pertains to the crappy solo career of Roth after he left Van Halen. What game is Sid or Brian's "California Girls" ?
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February 11, 2002, 12:42
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#11
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Prince
Local Time: 14:26
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In a dark and scary hole!
Posts: 728
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sim-golf?
dinosaurs?
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Sorry....nothing to say!
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February 11, 2002, 12:42
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#12
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:26
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Slax
We have yet to see whether the analogy also pertains to the crappy solo career of Roth after he left Van Halen. What game is Sid or Brian's "California Girls" ?
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Hey alright, we live in the same city.
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February 11, 2002, 12:43
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#13
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Warlord
Local Time: 21:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally posted by The Andy-Man
reason they sold more when he left is cos van halen then proceded tro turn into a pop group.
compare Van Halen (the first album) to Van Halen 3 (the last). no comparison. each album seemed to become more pop then the last.
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No way!!! Fair Warning was the fourth, heaviest (some say darkest) and in my opinion the best of the collection.
But speaking of VH3, BucksRock although making an awesome analogy failed to take into consideration the embarassingly short stint of Gary Cherone in the band.
Following the comparison, we can expect CivIV to be something along the lines of Pong...
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February 11, 2002, 12:47
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#14
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Prince
Local Time: 16:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Picksburgh
Posts: 837
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Speaking of Van Halen, doesn't the picture of Rifleman in Civilopedia look like the guy is playing guitar instead of holding a rifle?
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February 11, 2002, 12:51
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#15
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Firaxis Games
Local Time: 15:26
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Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
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I have to admit I've been trying unsuccessfully for several hours to find a way to work a "Hot for Teacher" joke into this thread.
Dan
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Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.
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February 11, 2002, 13:08
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#16
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
I have to admit I've been trying unsuccessfully for several hours to find a way to work a "Hot for Teacher" joke into this thread.
Dan
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Hey Dan, while you're here, any idea what might be causing the game to reset my science rate every turn with the mod I've been working on? For at least 10 turns last night, I would set it to 10%, and then the next turn it would automatically reset to 40%. I ran the original Bic file and the problem didn't come up, but as soon as I switched back to my mod, it started again. Is there some game rule I'm overlooking, or is this just a wierd bug?
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February 11, 2002, 13:45
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#17
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Prince
Local Time: 12:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of the Sierra Nevada foothills
Posts: 527
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Personally, I liked Van Halen better with Sammy Hagar... but the Gary Cherone experiment was an absolute failure.
I think it's too early to tell if Civ3 is a "Hagar" or a "Cherone"... the initial release has a lot of room for improvement, but with further patches and expansion packs, it could easily equal or surpass the playability of Civ2.
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February 11, 2002, 13:48
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#18
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Chieftain
Local Time: 20:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 76
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"There's a little bit of Van Halen in everybody."
-David Lee Roth
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February 11, 2002, 16:57
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#19
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Prince
Local Time: 15:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 421
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FNBrown pointed out the flaw in the analogy. Van Halen had three incarnations, as does the Civ series.
Therefore, Civ 1 would be Roth.
Civ 2 Sam Halen/Van Hagar
Civ 3 = the short whatisface period.
I prefer the Godfather film analogy, but I don't agree with the analysis of Part 1 Great, Part 2 Greatest, Part 3 pretty good but a disappointment.
I'm sorry to say that I can't think of an analogy that isn't hopelessly obscure.
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Above all, avoid zeal. --Tallyrand.
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February 11, 2002, 16:57
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#20
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Warlord
Local Time: 14:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Imperialist Running Dog
Posts: 107
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Indulge me...
My feelings on CivIII--using a few slightly altered lines from a Halen song...
Come on baby finish what you started. It's incomplete! That ain't no way to treat the broken hearted. Baby come on. Baby come on...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-- C.S. Lewis
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February 11, 2002, 22:31
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#21
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Settler
Local Time: 20:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Columbus
Posts: 19
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Gary Cherone??? *shudder*
Sorry, I guess I blocked him out.
To continue the analogy, I guess if CIV 4 had the exact same maps every game, and the AI made the exact same moves every game I guess that would qualify as a "Cherone". Please, let's not go there...
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