Thoughts on improvements for the end game...!

=DrJambo= · February 12, 2002, 08:57

What i have noticed is that all my Civ3 games follow a very similar trend and that is:
1. Build up cities with improvements and culture whilst keeping friends and trading with other civs.
2. Reach mid to late industrial period and run out of city improvements to build...
3. Build military as that's all there is to build.
4. Go to war in the Cavalry, Infantry, Tanks, Modern Ships period.

That always seems to be the way the games seem to work out! Going to war earlier means that the building of useful cultural city improvements suffers, i.e. like Universities, Police Stations, Banks, Wonders, Factories, etc.

What i have realised, is there is a significant lack of depth in the modern era! In the modern era, the main things that new tech brings are new and improved units and other mechanisms of conducting warfare. Also the spaceship comes into the equation a little on the early side, meaning that recycling centres, offshore platforms and the two wonders under Genetics aren't really worthwhile investments. Instead they just waste time.

Now, if i am not at war, my top cities have nothing to build because they have built all the improvements. Instead they just end up building units because there is essentially nothing left to build OR i set them onto wealth. Hence my point is that by this stage the best thing to do is just fight, fight, fight.

SO, how can the modern era be improved?

Here are my thoughts:
1. Expand the modern era making it larger with more tech advances.
2. Bring back improvements like stock-exchange, farmland, superhighways and SDI defence...
3. Make SAM batteries and Coastal Fortresses more useful by making the AI bombard cities as opposed to always bombarding land improvements, which are easily mopped up by workers.
4. Push back the timescale of the game beyond 2050 and make the spaceship parts arrive later.
5. Make aircraft able to destroy naval ships, thereby creating a need to replace a destroyed navy. At the moment once you build a navy that has got control of the seasthere isn't anything that can destroy it other than other ships or cruise missiles.

What ya reckon?

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 09:12

I would like the spaceship parts to be available not in the beginning and mid of the modern age, but as "future technologies". The space race comes ways too soon, often I don't even build/upgrade to modern armor and radar artillery, because the SS launch is close and there is no need to care about military. I also would like some more small wonders, kind of "Disneyland" (boost of happiness, zero culture

) or similar, and I would like more modern city improvements. The mentioned comeback of the stock exchange and superhighways would be a good start.

Also it would be great to use the UN not only for electing the Secretary General, but I would like to have a living UN, that helps to solve wars and conflicts between other civs by embargoes and intervention, e.g. by giving a civ or an alliance the mandat to intervene in a conflict without a diplomatic penalty, and so on.

In current state, the game is a challenge in the ancient and medieval era, reaches it's peak somewhere in the industrial era and becomes a tedious pain as soon as the modern era begins... sad but true! It would be great to fix this tedium.

Ironikinit · February 12, 2002, 09:22

There will always be a problem with improving the modern era, and that is the computing power required to track all of the units. Even standard maps slow noticably for me in the later game, so that I'm happy to take the early diplomatic victory.

Not that moving the SS parts to future tech is a bad idea. As has been pointed out, the idea of launching an interstellar colony with today's technology (or less!) is ridiculous.

Civ 2 suffered tedium in the end game as well. I'm not sure that bringing back the late game improvements that it had will fix anything.

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 09:28

If the cardinality of units is the source of tedium, why design the game such that they are integral to a successful empire-building strategy? It is like designing a motorcycle with seatbelts and an airbag.

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 09:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
If the cardinality of units is the source of tedium, why design the game such that they are integral to a successful empire-building strategy? It is like designing a motorcycle with seatbelts and an airbag.

Any constructive thoughts, Lib?

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 09:36

By "constructive", do you mean "sycophantic"?

Or do you mean suggestions for improving the game, such as group movement, sensible unit activation sequencing, a more intuitive interface, access to the civilopedia from key strategic screens, a listing queue for critical messages, and other such suggestions that I've made repeatedly?

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 09:42

That's absolutely necessary, but it would concern the early and mid-game as well. The question of this thread is how to improve the end game (i.e. fight the tedium).

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 09:46

The tedium that I experience late in the game is a direct result of fighting the interface (e.g., dismissing the Domestic Nag one city at a time) and the ill-conceived unit management features.

=DrJambo= · February 12, 2002, 09:49

yes i understand the modern era is problematic.

I just find that when i eventually get the upper hand unit-wise over the AI that i'm warring with it gets a little tedious. ANd by that i mean the ship and bomber bombardment of land improvements and cities.

once the initial naval battle is won, all of a sudden i have a huge navy with nothing really to do! I could bomb the AI's improvements, but that is either futile because their workers will build them back as fast as i destroy them, or boring as i reduce their cities to rubble..

The AI just dosn't build the right units, like fighters to protect their land from my bombers and cruise missiles to destroy my navy which is curently just bombing their coastline improvements turn after turn.

But maybe the solutions aren't so simple.

The one good thing about being at peace in civ2 was that you could play around with diplomats and caravans, setting up trade and embassies.

When you are at peace in Civ3 there is nothing to do, once the improvements are built!?!??! Trade happens on one screen and espionage on another, it was nice when these had to be manipulated on the map with your units...

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 09:55

Yes, you are right, that's one point, but even with a vastly improved interface and with really(?) intelligent workers there would a problem remain:

In the modern era are no attractive wonders, not much attractive city improvements, you have lots of money, spend it on a large military but... nothing happens. Start a war <-- get penaltized and let your prosper empire suffer from riots. Don't start a war <-- die from the tedium. Mainly I have had fun in the first 3 ages (despite the poor interface), but if I get in the modern age, I have only one goal: GET OUTTA HERE! And that is a poor end of a great game.

Would be great to change this. Any ideas are welcome.

Ironikinit · February 12, 2002, 10:13

Hey, at least we don't have to wait for the spaceship to actually make the trip anymore.

And we have the UN wonder right at the start of the era, which can make for a quick end, but not the highest scoring one or most certain.

It's a shame that we can't fast forward the game, that is, skip turns until something happens, such as a city running out of its build queue, a rival contacts us about something (be nice to turn that off because mostly they'll want trivial trades like map for map), a trade agreement ends, a wonder is built, etc.

It might help if lagging civs could get free advances to even things up, or if the AI was programmed to be more aggressive with espionage and steal more techs. As Jambo says, some of the AI tactics in war aren't terribly effective and could use tweaking. It could also help if (as has been suggested) the AI was given free unit upgrades. Another possibility would be to allow it to draft offensive units.

Some of those ideas might be terrible, just brainstorming.

=DrJambo= · February 12, 2002, 11:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Hey, at least we don't have to wait for the spaceship to actually make the trip anymore.

Actually sometimes that was exciting! I remember once being by far the biggest civ watching in triumph as i launched my spaceship first to arrive a "guaranteed" first. Only to find that some less well developed civ launched a bigger and better spaceship some years later which beat mine to it!!!

Was a great twist to the so called guaranteed victory run-in...

Quote:

And we have the UN wonder right at the start of the era, which can make for a quick end, but not the highest scoring one or most certain.

Actually i love this new wonder... similar to above i was cruising to a points victory when in 2047 i held an election (shouldn't have in hindsight) and lost to the Ruskies with only 3 years left!

Again a nice twist to the so-called guaranteed run-in.

Quote:

help if lagging civs could get free advances to even things up, or if the AI was programmed to be more aggressive with espionage and steal more techs. As Jambo says, some of the AI tactics in war aren't terribly effective and could use tweaking. It could also help if (as has been suggested) the AI was given free unit upgrades. Another possibility would be to allow it to draft offensive units.

Some of those ideas might be terrible, just brainstorming.

Yeah espionage is one area that is seriously lacking in Civ3. They've taken the thrill of running your hopeful spies around the map in an attempt to gain some vital leverage over a rival civ and replaced it it with a rather disfunctinal single screen system. This also gave another use for naval units, to transport your valuable spies across the globe...spying took some planning in Civ2. In Civ3, the build up is good with the Intelligence Agency and the potential options available are mostly useful:
1. Steal World Map is pointless.
2. Steal plans, investigate city and steal technology are good options albeit all too expensive. Cheaper to trade normally for tech anyways.
3. Initiate propaganda, too expensive and unreliable...better just to do it by force.
4. Find a mole!? This option is horribly implemented, usually leading to war and does the AI actually ever use espionage anyway (not that you would ever know)!? Pointless.

I miss the movable espionage and trade units, giving someone at peace something to do

I have found myself creating outlaws (no-nationality swordsmen with Invention) to keep me entertained when at peace.

Any other ideas for fun units in the modern era to keep one amused during peace?

ShuShu · February 12, 2002, 11:23

I actually posted the later spaceship in one of my recommendations in Vel thread a ways back.

I believe that would give you plenty of incentive to follow the lower tech track which has the production enhancements.

I then checked out the editor. It can do all this easily. Just change the tech prerequisits for the space ship parts to the later techs in the upper path, and bump up the part costs. I don't have any suggestions for play balance yet as I am still screwing around on deity in an attempt for a peaceful victory

. But the capability is there and I definitely intend to playtest it when I step back down to Emperor or Monarch.

Harovan · February 12, 2002, 11:33

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
4. Find a mole!? This option is horribly implemented, usually leading to war and does the AI actually ever use espionage anyway (not that you would ever know)!? Pointless.

At least it plants spies (as reported when it's caught), whether it uses it is beyond my knowledge.

Immortal Wombat · February 12, 2002, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
What ya reckon?

I reckon you just want the game more like CtP.

And that it would not improve the endgame significantly at all.

Ironikinit · February 12, 2002, 12:06

According to the manual, the AI is supposed to use espionage. As Ralph said, it does at least plant spies, but I've never seen a message that said "City X lost due to espionage" or "Civ Y's spy was captured stealing tech."

Jambo, yes, the space race could be exciting when one civ would launch a full SS looking to get all the points, then another would launch a stripped down one and beat the slower SS by a turn or two. Eventually I learned to watch out for that... but you should've heard me cuss when it happened. More than I cussed when freshly conquered cities flipped, anyway. That was more just bewildering at first.

Propaganda isn't totally useless, but that's not really on topic. Maybe espionage will be beefed up in the future, or at least options added to allow for that in the editor.

It's probably beyond the range of a patch, but Ralph's idea on the UN or another wonder that would allow for more advanced diplomacy would be cool. Also, if there were more ways to score points, something to work for, that might help. Of course, future tech is already there, but I've yet to get any. That's a change from Civ 2 where I often did.

Other possible units: AA battery you could park on your resources to attack bombers, modern armies that can unload units, infiltrators which would be units that appear to belong to other civs for cheap intell, satelites, I dunno what all. Adding units isn't easy, though.

RickBlaine · February 12, 2002, 12:59

I made similar points about the Modern era a couple of months ago. Not only is that era rather bare of techs and attractive wonders, the SS comes way too early and is way too easy to build. Unless you uncheck the SS victory (and I speculate that this is the most common victory path in Civ3), most of the already thin modern era becomes almost completely irrelevant. I emphatically do not want to join those silly posters who seem to think that Firaxis is the axis of evil (it's only a game, and a reasonably good one at that), nonetheless, the modern era gameplay suggests a real lack of play testing and a rush to get the game out the door for the holidays. At minimum, the SS techs should be moved to the end of the era, and construction should be more difficult (and, if possible, customizable) as in Civ2.

=DrJambo= · February 12, 2002, 13:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

I reckon you just want the game more like CtP.

And that it would not improve the endgame significantly at all.

Actually i've never played CtP...!

ShuShu, yeah you're right... i might well experiment with altering the tech tree and making certain spaceship components dependent on advances like Miniaturisation.

Arrian · February 12, 2002, 13:22

If you move the SS parts back a while, you had better make the rest of the Modern Age more fun. Most of us seem to beeline for the SS and just finish it off (substitute Modern Armor here for warmongers).

My suggestions, aside from the obvious (stacking, for instance):

Automatic, free AI unit upgrades (optional at start of game). Yeah, it's a cheat, but I think it's necessary. Optional so that those who HATE any AI cheat don't have to deal with it.

If possible, get the AI to disband units that don't upgrade to help produce better ones (ironclads -> destoyers, Cav -> Tanks). Or at least disband them so they don't have to pay the upkeep.

Reduce cost of espionage, encourage "aggressive" civs to use it more. Though I admit, I HATE it when the AI steals my tech (Civ II, MOOII). I'll deal with it, though, and I know it would make the AI more competitive.

Having the intelligence agency before your opponent has one should convey an added benifit, but I don't know how that should be done (50% boost to chance of success?).

If possible, having a spy in a civ's capitol should give a low percentage chance per turn of giving you the cheapest tech you don't have.

Remove SETI - once you are ahead, getting this is a foregone conclusion, and do you really need a third "doubles science" wonder? Bah.

Remove Longevity, it sucks.

Add a spacestation (either a 1-shot Wonder or a short series of parts), available after researching Spaceflight. This would give you the old Apollo Program clearing of the fog of war, and some culture, of course. Small Wonder, required for SS win somehow.

Add the Internet - gives a small boost to either science or money, but the major effect is halving the cost of stealing technology (edit: for all civs). Great Wonder, dead end tech off of computers.

If possible, change the UN entirely to function more like the one in Master of Orion II or SMAC. If you lose a vote, there should be an option to fight it out vs. the rest of the world.

-Arrian

Feanor73 · February 12, 2002, 13:33

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=

I have found myself creating outlaws (no-nationality swordsmen with Invention) to keep me entertained when at peace.

Can you explain what you mean by this? How does one create rogue swordsmen? Are they similiar to privateers [great idea, but uterly useless with attack of 1]?

ShuShu · February 12, 2002, 13:38

This is a change I already have made with the editor: Just change cavalry to upgrade to tank and swordsman to either Musketman or Rifleman. Same for Longbowman.

The reason I did this was not to keep the units upgradable, but rather to get them off of the bloody unit list in the later eras.

Ironikinit · February 12, 2002, 13:52

Arrian,

Personally, I'd like it if the auto upgrade deal for the AI wasn't available as soon as the tech arrives, maybe more like at the dawn of a new era. That would give the AI all muskets and cav (most likely) at the end of the medieval, and infantry at the end of the industrial.

Since we're talking late game, the infantry upgrade is the biggie.

Arrian · February 12, 2002, 15:07

Ironikinit,

I don't know that doing the AI upgrade by Age is good enough. It would still help a lot, but I don't think it will help enough. The AI needs to have riflemen ASAP, not wait to jump from Musketmen to Infantry upon hitting Modern Times. And what about Mech Inf? Sure, it will build some of the new units from scratch, but underneath it will still have the obselete ones.

Cavalry steamroll Musketmen, so that's why I think riflemen are important for the AI, not to mention turning their horsemen & knights into Cavalry (Far too often I've been hit with a counterattack which contained a couple of Cav, several knights, several horsemen, and some swordsmen).

Yes, I know we are talking about the Modern Age, but the first three Ages set up the Modern Age. If you can't just roll over the AI with Cavalry, you won't be as strong in modern times.

-Arrian

Immortal Wombat · February 12, 2002, 15:27

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
Actually i've never played CtP...!

Try it. We've come up with some acheivable ways of alleviating endgame tedium.

Willem · February 12, 2002, 15:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironikinit
.. infiltrators which would be units that appear to belong to other civs for cheap intell, satelites, I dunno what all. Adding units isn't easy, though.

Yes I had that thought too. I've created some colorless units in my game that I can use to whack other civs without being at war. But I've noticed that the AI understands that those are my guys, he just can't make a fuss about it. He gets furious with me everytime I use them. So if I could make a "camoflaged" colorless unit, that the civ I'm attacking would think belonged to someone else, I could really stir up some diplomatic tension between civs. Sort of like in SMAC where your spy could try and make it look like some other faction was responsible.

Willem · February 12, 2002, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Feanor73

Can you explain what you mean by this? How does one create rogue swordsmen? Are they similiar to privateers [great idea, but uterly useless with attack of 1]?

Yes, that's exactly how they work. In the editor you just check "Hidden Nationality" in the "Unit Abilities" window to any unit you want to use. You can attack at will without being officially at war. However using them does have an adverse effect on your diplomacy. As I mentioned, the AI knows they're yours, but he can't do anything about it. However, he will immediately attack any of these units he encounters, so they tend to have a very high mortality rate. Plus it also uses them itself, so you have to keep an eye out for them. I've lost several good workers that way.

At least it gives me something to do when peace breaks out.

Willem · February 12, 2002, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

Cavalry steamroll Musketmen, so that's why I think riflemen are important for the AI, not to mention turning their horsemen & knights into Cavalry (Far too often I've been hit with a counterattack which contained a couple of Cav, several knights, several horsemen, and some swordsmen).

Why not just tone down the Cavalry? I've done that with mine after hearing all the complaints, and I don't find them overpowering at all. And it doesn't make sense that a bunch of guys on horseback can travel farther than someone in a Tank. I think that's one of the biggest problems with them right there.

Pyrodrew · February 12, 2002, 16:23

I agree with most of the ideas here, especially about the Spaceship being able to be built so early. The United Nations should not be so easily built as well.

Yet, I believe there must be a balance of power for the game to be interesting in the Modern Age. If the AI does not team up against the player who is winning (usually the human), there is no challenge.

AI Civs 1st do not Despot Pop Rush like a human does, this cheap tactic starts to unbalance things.

Midevil Age is where the AI Civs begin to weaken. 1st comes the AI Civs HUGE desire to obtain any & all dead-end techs, which the Midevil Age has several. Even if these dead-end techs had their wonder completed the AI Civs will still sell their soul just to get 1. Likewise, why would a poor AI Civ (most AI Civs are poor) seek to get the Espionage (highly expensive tactics) tech instead of trying to keep up in other areas of the tech tree? It's foolish. This gives the human a good lead & game challenge begins to decrease.

Next, once Cavalry is introduced (usually the human gets this 1st) game balance is weakened even further (Cavalry Steamroll, possible by an AI, but a human does this best). As others have said, a 3speed unit who can retreat with decent stats can seriously give a player tons of land/cities very quick. Cavalry can be superior to tanks in some vital ways.

Once Factories are discovered (again, usually the human gets these 1st) then the strongest get MUCH stronger, widening the gap further. Factories should be weakened.

By the ModernAge, the AI Civs fear the strongest player (human usually) so much & are so weak compared to them there is VERY little challenge... especially since they don't seek a balance of power to stop the player that is winning (usually the human). Additionally, rather than the AI trying to stop the player that is winning & is in the lead, currently the AI only HELPS the strongest player destroy the other AI Civs (Feeding Frenzies). This reduces the challenge even further, making the Modern Age very boring.

Currently, only corruption is the only challenge in the Modern Age. And many people find the heavy distance corruption annoying. And there is very little strategy & ALOT of work just to get 1 shield up to 2. A balance of power would be a far more interesting Industrial Age & Modern Age challenge than Corruption.

Sandman · February 12, 2002, 17:25

Modern Age: My thoughts

Its ugly. A bare map looks much nicer than the modern era sprawl. There's still lots of unused land in real life, why can't there be 'unspoilt' regions in civ3?

The UN victory is very poorly thought out. Why didn't they use the system from SMAC?

There are too many American units. Only 20 stealth bombers have been built, and there are no more planned. It's like including Zeppelins.

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 17:27

A dead-on accurate analogy, Sandman. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.