The Internet: A Wonder or a Tech Advance

[Zer0_T0lerance]

Before I say anything, perhaps it would be a good idea for MarkG or yin26 to make a poll on this highly debatable topic.

quote: Originally posted by Zero_Tolerance on 11-12-2000 04:46 PM INTERNET. Large, international computer network linking tens of millions of users around the world. It is used daily by many individuals for the main purposes of sending and receiving electronic mail (e-mail), obtaining mountains of information on almost any subject, or to communicate with coworkers on projects. Access to the Internet is obtained only by subscription, and an Internet address is needed to receive a message or to send a message to another Internet user. Such addresses have a specific format that specifies the name of the user, the machine they are working on, and where that machine is located. The Internet began as a network of computers, the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network, or ARPANET, supported by the U.S. Defense Department. In the 1980s, the National Science Foundation (NSF) supplied funding to extend the network to connect research-based supercomputers at various sites across the U.S. By the end of the decade, the Internet had extended to connect countries from around the world. By the early 1990s the Internet had encompassed all research universities, four-year colleges, federal agencies and laboratories, and computer vendors. At the close of the 1990s, lower personal computer prices and the ready availability of numerous online services encouraged increased personal and home connections to the Internet, particularly via the World Wide Web, an application that gathers resources from the Internet into a series of menu pages, or screens. The advent of the World Wide Web, with its relative ease of use, is undoubtedly one reason for the explosion of home computer use experienced at the close of the twentieth century. Although no single authority governs the use of the Internet, users voluntarily adhere to a telecommunications protocol. Because there is no governing body, however, controversy sometimes arises as to issues of privacy and what information may or may not be allowed into the network. In 1996, a new law designed to regulate indecent material on the global Internet computer network was declared an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment guarantee of free speech by a panel of three U.S. Federal judges. The legislation, known as the Computer Decency Act, had been approved as part of the broad Telecommunications Act of 1996 that won Congressional approval and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in February. The law's supporters said it was designed to stop the dissemination of pornography and other unsuitable material over the Internet network, which was used by tens of millions of adults and children around the world. Under the legislation, the distribution of "indecent" material over the Internet was punishable by a $250,000 fine and up to two years in prison. The decision was the first judicial ruling that Internet materials should be extended the same protection from censorship as printed materials. --------------------------------------------------------- From Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------

I think that the above text in bold are very important reasons why the Internet should NOT be a Wonder. Besides, the Internet could be a prerequisite for E-commerce (an information economic science), and wouldn't it make a lot of sense to include that in the tech tree; I don't think that the Internet itself should have any effect on trade because originally the Internet was first used only for sending and receiving electronic mail, obtaining mountains of information on almost any subject, or to communicate with coworkers on projects. E-commerce did not exist as soon as the Internet did; it came later. The Internet alone should have an effect on science. And secondly, other ideas for tech advances related to the Internet such as Encryption and Advanced Telecommunications may be some good ones. By Advanced Telecommunications, I mean things such as cell phones, pagers, fax machines, and broadbandwith.

Oh, hold your breath for this one! ELECTRONIC ESPIONAGE!!! And that's what Encryption is suppose to help prevent. If two civs have the Internet tech advance and one tries to break into to any of the other civ's networks by simply hacking into it, then they can steal techs this way. The Internet without Encryption is like giving your enemy the keys to your door; anyone else that has discovered the Internet can steal your techs this way, and it works 100% of the time! However, an Internet "secured" by Encryption has much less of a chance being hacked successfully(security holes and bugs in they system can sometimes cause failures). Though anyone who tries to hack either a secured or unsecured Internet can either be traced or investigated, which can cause an International Incident if that trace or investigation is successful. Also, civs may also gain other information such as your national infrastructure(or part of your infrastructure), and yours as well as your embassy's troop locations worldwide! NOW THIS IS ESPIONAGE IN THE DIGITAL AGE!!!

So, what do you think? Should the Internet be a wonder or a tech advance?

You decide!

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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Marcel I]

It’s not a technology advance alone. People would have to build an infrastructure to get it up and running.
It’s also not a city bound improvement. It’s more like a nationwide improvement.
If it was a wonder in Civ 2 style other nations wouldn’t be able to build it . IMO that isn’t realistic.
In other threads I saw suggestions to split up wonders in ones that would be truly unique and others that could be build once by nations that discovered the technology (like NORAD, nuclear bomb project or SDI).
I think the internet would fit in the second category.
Stealing technology via the internet should only be possible if the Civ you were stealing from builds the ‘wonder’ too (it’s a kind of two way street).
I liked the idea’s about espionage and encryption in your post, I have a question though.
Should the discovery of encryption technology automatically make stealing more difficult, or should it lead to a ‘national encryption centre’ or something like that?



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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

[Ribannah]

It is higly unlikely that the Internet, as we know it now, will be the final and only global network. The later advance, called Global Network in my tech tree, will make the Internet look like childplay.

To the advance called Computer, however, the Internet is a wondrous achievement. Therefore, it should be a Wonder in Civ3.

As to the effects of the Internet wonder on Espionage, see the latests wonders thread.




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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 11-16-2000 09:56 AM It is higly unlikely that the Internet, as we know it now, will be the final and only global network. The later advance, called Global Network in my tech tree, will make the Internet look like childplay. To the advance called Computer, however, the Internet is a wondrous achievement. Therefore, it should be a Wonder in Civ3.

So was the television and the telephone, or at least they were in the days they were introduced. They both seemed like wondrous inventions back then; now with the invention of newer more advanced technologies such as the Internet, the telephone and television seem irrelevant compared to these newer technologies. You talk about such things as a Global Network, "which will make the Internet look like child's play." Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about. As soon as we have a Global Network, even the Internet will not seem so wondrous.

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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

Yes it would. People would say "How could they have accomplished that with the technology of that time?"
Just like we look at the Pyramids in amazement, in spite of the fact that we could now build a dozen a day.

In the same manner Startrek and Bell Company are potential wonders (admittedly not very good ones ), not new advances.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Tical_2000]

People, when you start fiercely debating whether the Internet should be a wonder or a tech improvement or whatever in a computer game, you should ask yourself-Do I lead a sad and pitiful life? I mean, who gives a flying *#%!$ if its a wonder or not? Honestly, everything in the Civ world serves a purpose. When you begin to debate the reality of each and every detail, you've lost the focus that is Civilization. Computer games are meant to be fun not real.

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 11-16-2000 07:38 PM Yes it would. People would say "How could they have accomplished that with the technology of that time?" Just like we look at the Pyramids in amazement, in spite of the fact that we could now build a dozen a day. In the same manner Startrek and Bell Company are potential wonders (admittedly not very good ones ), not new advances.

I don't think so. The thing about the Pyramids is that their is not enough written history to determine how the egyptians built the pyramids in their time because the pyramids are probably older than writing. In today's world, there is more than enough written history to determine how we invented the Internet, and I doubt that 1,000, 2,000, or 3,000 years from now people will be wondering how we did it. It's no wonder why they call them the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.


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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 17, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Zero_Tolerance on 11-16-2000 02:13 AM Before I say anything, perhaps it would be a good idea for MarkG or yin26 to make a poll on this highly debatable topic.

too "small" topic to make a poll out of it....

[Shogun Gunner]

Neither tech advance or wonder...

I don't see the relevance of the Internet to the time scale of Civ.

OK, so it's the first global network of computers...AND?

[Dauphin]

I think the internet should be classed as a trade advance, allowing you to set up electronic "trade routes" between cities that have a computer centre (or something to that affect.) The trade would be a benefit as an increase in gold, science and happiness. Through e-commerce, scientific exchange, and computer games...

That way its global, and no one civ invents it.
[This message has been edited by Big Crunch (edited November 19, 2000).]

[Zer0_T0lerance]

Wow! You're on the right track! But I think that the Internet should be both a science and luxury advance, and E-commerce a separate trade advance.

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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 20, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch on 11-19-2000 08:48 AM I think the internet should be classed as a trade advance, allowing you to set up electronic "trade routes" between cities that have a computer centre (or something to that affect.) The trade would be a benefit as an increase in gold, science and happiness. Through e-commerce, scientific exchange, and computer games...

That is the Auction Platform that comes with the Global Marketing (prereq: Global Network) advance in my tech tree. The Internet is too primitive to have such a big effect.



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[airdrik]

Ribannah, stop talking about your 'global marketing' for a while and for the time just include global marketing under the internet, as global marketing comes with the internet. In your tech tree you can have all the internet stuff discussed here under global marketing, or whatever you put if under, but for the sake of this thread, global maketing is part of the internet.

I agree that the internet is a trade advance, and obsoletes all other trade units as you would no longer need them to establish trade routes.

[Ribannah]

I see nothing even remotely resembling that happening in the real world, Airdrik. In contrast, however, the Internet does significantly speed up research.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Dauphin]

I don't think obsolescence of old trade units is right. After all e-commerce and trade is only applicable to invisible goods. Things like oil, bananas, coffee, cars (etc) will still require "old" style trade in terms of delivery.

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: Originally posted by airdrik on 11-21-2000 06:17 PM I agree that the internet is a trade advance, and obsoletes all other trade units as you would no longer need them to establish trade routes.

Actually, in the real world, the Internet is what began the Information Age. The Internet is the "Information Superhighway." And did you know that in the real world the Internet Backbone is directly connected into supercomputers located at many colleges and universities across the world (click here for more information)?!?! After all, it should be because the Internet is an educational benefit for all, especially for college students. "Information Superhighway:" Sounds like a science advance to me. Though, it may also be a luxury. Remember, it didn't happen all at once. Leave E-commerce in their for later, as an information commercial science.

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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 22, 2000).]

[Zer0_T0lerance]

Here is a great webpage briefly summarizing the history of the Internet:

Internet Society (ISOC) All About the Internet: A Brief History of the Internet

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Zero

[Dauphin]

By similar logic most things aren't created overnight. The computer, quantum theory, shipbuilding etc..

True e-commerce has only emerged in the last few years as has the modern internet/web. Similarly you shouldn't get the advance "computer" as an individual event, as those of the 60s space programs are useless compared to the one in front of you right now.

You really have to decide which things need to be split into seperate categories and which can be lumped together in the interests of gameplay.

[Zer0_T0lerance]

Smart thinking, Big Crunch! Logical is an important word, as all of my ideas posted on these forums have been just that, logical. They are based on facts and facts alone, rather than opiniated suggestions. Though, I don't mean for Firaxis to sacrifice too much fun for realism, I just want to make sure that they know and understand the facts, so that they may consider them before making any decisions.



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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 22, 2000).]

[Rollo Tomasi]

How about this for an idea: The Internet is neither a wonder nor a tech advance, just a collection of city improvements. Here's how it works.

You discover the advance "Computers", which allows you to construct the city improvement "Computer Center". By itself, it provides a paltry 1% increase in science output in that city. But if you construct a second Computer Center in another city, the effect increases, and the science output of EACH of those two cities will increase by 2% (4% total). The third will increase the science output by 3% each (9% total), and so on. The tenth computer center would increase the science output of each of those ten cities by 10%, and the total science output increase from those ten cities would be 100%!

The discovery of the advance "Global Economics" would confer a similar trade bonus to the computer centers, or maybe only if a certain wonder was created (Like the Virtual World for Network Nodes in SMAC.)

This turns out to be a very powerful improvement (Your twentieth Computer Center would provide a 400% increase to the science output of those twenty cities), but they would be limited by the following:

1) The discovery of Computers should render all Libraries obsolete. (No good technology is researched in libraries anymore.)

2) Computer Centers should be very expensive. (5 of them should cost the same as a high-priced Modern Age wonder.)

3) Advances higher than "Computers" on the tech tree should take twice as long to be researched (Advanced technology requires great computing power, even longer if you have to do it by hand!). This doesn't apply to cultural advances.

4) Tech leak: Whenever you discover an advance, there is an n% chance (n/4 for military advances) that the advance is given to one or more civs with at least one computer center, where N equals the number of computer centers you have. Military technologies are highly classified and protected, and are therefore not as easily leaked out. The discovery of the "Digital Encryption" advance would cut the chance of leak in half, and a wonder similar to CTP2's Data Haven would reduce this chance to zero. Of course, this works both ways.

[Dauphin]

I like your ideas RT but the cumulative thing is a bit skew. Rather than increasing the benefit as n^2 the effective of each subsequent Computer centre should increase to a maximum.

1st: 50% increase for that city
2nd: 75% increase for each city (150% total)
3rd: 87.5% increase for each city (262.5% total.)

In reality if you had 20 Computer centres the next one is not going to make much difference to the others although it will get the benefits of the others for itself.

Eventually in this model each CC is equivalent to an increase of 100% per city, change the numbers to whateveer is appropiate.

[Jer8m8]

Some people have suggested "pacts" (read the List), like the UN. May be the Internet would be like this. Once a civ has reaserched it (or built the wonder), the internet is "created". As civs research the tech or build the wonder (once per civ) then they will be able to "use" the internet. Among other things, it might let you research e-commerce (trade bonuses), something that increases science (Information Age?) and others. If corporations are included, they will get extra bonuses which will be returned back to you (taxes)