Space Colonization, Mars, Venus, Saturn etc

[CivilizationCanuck]

Being a strategy nut, I like to build my empires as far as possible, and one of the things I enjoyed about Test of Time was how they had multiple planets. I believe, if done correctly in Civlization 3, that if Mars, Mercury, Venus, all those planets were included... it would make it extremely better. Especially when you finished Civ2 and you see that spaceship float away, it leaves something else than Alpha Centauri. It left me to think, what about Mars, and all those other planets. Wouldn't the Russians and Americans be battling for those? Wouldn't it be possible to cleanse the Germans from Earth and leave them stranded and restricted to Saturn??? Or for the Chinese to totally control Earth, but still have a threat from outer space, i.e orbital bombardments?

Im just pitching ideas here, but being a scifi fan, I need more than just Earth to conquer, I need planets that bring new minerals, allies even (native aliens?), I need planets that give me the abilility to conquer them also, and I need planets so I can blow them up, much like the obiliteration option in AC. It may sound a bit Star Wars, which I am a fan of, but Civ 3 should expand into Space, considering we all have conquered earth in Civ 2.

Comments? Criticism?

quote: Wouldn't it be possible to cleanse the Germans from Earth and leave them stranded and restricted to Saturn???

a total and utter newbie and already making enemies...


welcome on board, fella! don't get on my people, I will throw it back to you

------------------
excerpts from ICQ talks:

Ogga ogga ogg ogg - Provost Harrison
Never Ming - Builder
heh - Warning:
- Ming

AND NOW - THE LONGEST AND MOST SERIOUS POST EVER MADE BY ME!!!

[This message has been edited by Andz83 (edited November 07, 2000).]

[airdrik]

I agree, but I think that the solar system could be comprised of random planets, some of which are inhabitable (though with some work), others are uninhabitable but can be mined for materials.

I don't think that it should go much farther than that because then you get into a situation of infinitely expanding your civ, running into an infinitely number of 'alian' civs, never reaching the boundry of the edge of the universe which there is no end to. So the solar system is as far as you should be able to expand to and only alians native to this solar system should be included.

[Shadowstrike]

Good work Andy... I knew you could make it...

Anyhow, I believe that if we expand it to more then 5 - 10 worlds, it will be too big...

We should have Earth, Earth-Underground, Orbit, Moon, Mars, Venus, Europa, Gandymede (sp?), Titan, and maybe Io (just for harsh enviornments)

[CornMaster]

I'd like to see someone colonize Saturn/Juptier/Neptune/Uranus. Considering they are gas giants!!! But I think that's going a little too far. Maybe a little Alien Invasion and orbital cities and the moon of course but I would go mush farther than that. If you want to check out Birth of the Federation.

------------------
"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"The best meats' in the rump!"
I AM CANADIAN!
CornEmpire Index
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

[Tical_2000]

I agree. Canuck, definetly check out Birth of the Federation. It will quench your thirst for sci-fi and strategy gaming. As for colonizing other planets...its sounds cool but I wouldn't want to colonize planets just for the sake of it. If that's the case then just play two different civ games at once and pretend you inhabit numerous worlds. Colonizing space should be done for specific reasons in the gameplay. Such as, destruction of earth in a nuclear holocaust or an alien invasion that wipes out most of earth. This would give substance to space colonization instead of a useless new map to just settle and develop a la CTP1.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by CivilizationCanuck on 11-07-2000 04:57 PM Wouldn't it be possible to cleanse the Germans from Earth and leave them stranded and restricted to Saturn??? Comments? Criticism?

I couldn't agree more with what Andy said. Have you gone out of your mind ?!. Sometimes I feel like wanting to cleanse the Americans of the earth, because from time to time they seem so utterly ignorant, arrogant (or whatever frustrates me) like you do now. But what about us dutch ???
Got anything against our eastern neighbours, are you still living in the past ???.
Maybe you could be standing model for a new unit, the fool, decreases happiness and increases frustration tolerance.

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG

[Deathwalker]

Personally I like the idea of having multiple maps that you had in TOT, but I think it should be limited to three or four and each a random selection? Not based on our solar system or as many planets.

------------------
I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

settle down, vranks!

we need to show strength now

*shows strength*

[Tical_2000]

Hey man! Easy on the name-calling. I think he was just using the Germans as an example. Its just a computer game and yeah, if I was playing Civ and the Germans really pissed me off I would like to obliterate their race from the earth just like I would to any race that pissed me off. Its nothing personal.

[CivilizationCanuck]

Thanks Tical

Easy there guys!

Wouldn't it be possible to cleanse the "Canadians" (happy? It was an example ) from Earth and leave them stranded and restricted to Saturn???
Comments? Criticism?

Its not like I have anything against Germans, or Canadians, since I am both, just making it more viable to you instead of saying Faction A, Faction B etc.

I agree that there should be a boundary and not infinite planets and aliens, although a few planets, specifically Mars would be nice. Earth Underground is a interesting idea.

[Shadowstrike]

Hey! Stop insulting us Canadians!

*takes staff and clubs newbie over the head*

Anyhow, as I've always said, any more then 10 maps will be too hard to manage. It would be neat if the maps were to resemble our universe, but if we could have an alternate game (like TOT) where it was magic and clockworks instead of technology, that would be fun too...

[CivilizationCanuck]

Honestly, some of you people need to read what I said.

[Builder]

It can be nice as long as you keep it simple.

[VanHalen78]

Hey i'd like to say that i agree 100% the colinization of other worlds would be extremely fun i say we should be able to go out to other nearby planets but only pheasable one's like mars becaues Venus has a extremely hostile environment along with mercury which is so close to the sun its shrinking!! I say in the game one should be able to colinize some of the possibly habitable moons of mars, and jupiter and mars itself. because one day we have to leave the planet for a number of reasons, possibility of nuclear fall out, the ice age which presently is 500 years away approximately, and because earth is becoming extremely over populated and the natural resources are being depleteled also earth is becoming poluted and global warming is possible. There are so many possibilites at this point in time so going on to other worlds would make the game much more fun. thats all

[jdlessl]

It's a cool idea and one I'd definitely like to see implemented eventually. Randomly generated star systems with planets, moons, asteroids and comets (the last 2 are just as important!) would add a whole new dimension to the game. But good lord will it make it more complicated! Consider, you'll have to model the entire system as its components move, you'll have to cycle through many maps to complete a turn, and weapons systems in space can become quite varied (rail guns, nukes/EMP of all sizes, bombardment with asteroids, etc) and lethal, to say the least.

The interface we have for Civ/CTP/SMAC is not well suited to one in which space is another combat arena. For starters, we'd need to be able to overlay orbital facilities/satellites/ships over a view of the entire planet. Turn times would have to be dropped below 1 year since by 2020 Delta's lunar shuttle get's you there in 2 days (or your money back!) and what orbit you're in makes a big difference but wouldn't show in a 1 turn = 1 year system. Furthermore, nearly every space-borne weapon is one of mass destruction when inflicted on planets, so auto-counterattack functionality would be a must to enable any kind of Cold War scenarios.

There's also the question of how to implement the difficulty of launching something out of the gravity well. A single 'Rocketry'/'Space Flight' advance wouldn't cut it. You'd need a whole slew of minor advances that cut down launch costs, spaceship propulsion systems, etc. Orbital elevators (very expensive to build, but allow virtually unlimited orbital access) could become a normal improvement, but only for cities on/near the equator. But there's also laser boost systems (cheap all around, but use lots of power), ramjets (expensive to research and build, but cheaper launches), and rockets (expensive in everything except research).

Consider also that everything you can build a city on is going to have different rules on how to get resources and what it takes to keep the place running. Having resource types rather than just shields/food will come in handy here.

I would suggest that some of you check out an old Sierra game called Alien Legacy for a decent beginning on implementing this.

Obviously the tech tree will have to be extended far out beyond the simple 1960 + starship that civ2 went to.

--
Jared Lessl
[This message has been edited by jdlessl (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by Tical_2000 on 11-08-2000 08:23 PM Hey man! Easy on the name-calling. I think he was just using the Germans as an example. Its just a computer game and yeah, if I was playing Civ and the Germans really pissed me off I would like to obliterate their race from the earth just like I would to any race that pissed me off. Its nothing personal.

It may be a bit late to respond to this, but somehow you leave me no choice.

It's not just that the germans are being used as an example. Somehow it seems as if they're always just being used as an badexample.
The most obvious choice for a bad example.
The stereotype choice for a bad example.
The easy choice to get away with if you want to pick on somebody.
And that's being done here in the netherlands as well.
This stereotype kind of thinking is what really makes me mad.

I'm sorry if I have offended somebody/you with getting as mad as I've been here.

Do you accept my apologies ?!
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited December 12, 2000).]

[Grumbold]

I can't see space colonisation being too viable in the current Civ format. CtP2 retreated from low earth orbit back to just having orbital station improvements built in cities. The multiple flat-map approach of ToT had to gloss over space combat which would be the most devastating kind. Easy to wipe a planet when you have so many gigantic rocks to hurl around. Who needs nukes anyway?

The exploration and colonisation of the solar system could make a terrific game, one I have been longing for since playing Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space. Many modern books and scientific papers discussing sensibly how lunar amd martian colonies could possibly be created have provided lots of source material for a truly in-depth game to arise. Sadly, I don't see this working properly in a game where turns last years and cities of millions span only one tile.

[jdlessl]

I agree. Much though I'd like to see it done, there's just too great a difference in how the game would be played before and after the space race. Each turn could take no more than a month of game time. Weapons become so powerful that turn-based combat becomes quite unfair. Colonies on other moons and planets woudl be played as totally different games, different city and terrain improvements. To be realistic in any sense, the tech tree would have to expand to a ridiculous degree.

Perhaps one of Firaxis' next projects would be this kind of game. You play as the director of a space agency starting in 1960 and go from there.

--
Jared Lessl

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by CivilizationCanuck on 11-07-2000 04:57 PM Being a strategy nut, I like to build my empires as far as possible, and one of the things I enjoyed about Test of Time was how they had multiple planets. I believe, if done correctly in Civlization 3, that if Mars, Mercury, Venus, all those planets were included... it would make it extremely better.

Why this almost obsessive need of trying to squeeze absolutely everything into the main-game?

Isnt there enough SciFi-based strategy-games around already? Why isnt some really good Civ-3 SciFi-scenarios enough?

The main dilemma for Firaxis is this. One one hand:

"Expanding the main-game beyond 2020-2040 AD is not going to be popular by conservative players, and those who DO like this approach, are likely to rant about this or that futuristic government, improvement, unit or wonder, and the fact that this or that version of it, perhaps wasnt exactly what they wanted either".

On the other hand:

If Firaxis ïnstead developes a main-game that covers the same period as Civ-2 (4000BC - 2040AD), they still have full freedom in adding some great SciFi-scenarios, both together the main game, and with any future scenario-addons.

The latter approach is, seen from a commercial and review-critical point of view; the safest one. They can always repair any "ending 2040 AD" criticism, by adding some lavish tailor-cut futuristic/SciFi-scenarios. If the disapproval instead goes the other way around; they cannot do much about it. (and criticized it will be, if they decides to implement these SciFi ideas - i have visit this site long enough, read too many posts, and read too many CTP, CTP-2 and TOT reviews to understand that some people really DONT LIKE these ideas).

Finally; seen from Firaxis game-developing point of view (and particular in a game thats anticipated to be the REAL heir to Civ-2), it is extremely important that they minimize the risk of failure, by concentrate themselves on a quality-before-quantity approach.
Infact: in many ways, one can use Activisions attempts (especially, the first game: CTP) as a "crash test dummy", when it comes to the real hazards of the "trying to squeeze as much as possible, into the main-game" approach.

Hopefully, they have learned something.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 12, 2000).]

[Grrr]

This would require a very complex 3D spacemap, which would make units extremely difficult to control, as there is not only the eight cardinal directions, but also North up, North down, North west down, and so on, giving a very difficult control. And, how would you want to display such a 3D map on a screen without depth.

quote: Originally posted by CivilizationCanuck on 11-07-2000 04:57 PM Being a strategy nut, I like to build my empires as far as possible, and one of the things I enjoyed about Test of Time was how they had multiple planets. I believe, if done correctly in Civlization 3, that if Mars, Mercury, Venus, all those planets were included... it would make it extremely better. Especially when you finished Civ2 and you see that spaceship float away, it leaves something else than Alpha Centauri. It left me to think, what about Mars, and all those other planets. Wouldn't the Russians and Americans be battling for those? Wouldn't it be possible to cleanse the Germans from Earth and leave them stranded and restricted to Saturn??? Or for the Chinese to totally control Earth, but still have a threat from outer space, i.e orbital bombardments? Im just pitching ideas here, but being a scifi fan, I need more than just Earth to conquer, I need planets that bring new minerals, allies even (native aliens?), I need planets that give me the abilility to conquer them also, and I need planets so I can blow them up, much like the obiliteration option in AC. It may sound a bit Star Wars, which I am a fan of, but Civ 3 should expand into Space, considering we all have conquered earth in Civ 2. Comments? Criticism?

[airdrik]

I posted this in another thread, but here it is:

How about if in Civ 3 you were restricted to Earth, and the game would end when you built the first successful colony on another planet/the moon. You could then play that game on a sequal (Civ solar colonization,?). That game would cover the exploration, colonization and conquering of the galaxy and would be able to open any Civ 3 game where at least one civ has a colony on a planet/moon outside of earth. When you 'win' that game (build a ship to colonize Alpha Centary, or discover some tech that allows exploration/colonization of the galaxy/universe) then you can play that game on SMAC 2 or MoO 2. Thus you can start one game starting at the origins of that civ and be able to conquer the world, explore and conquer the solar system, and explore and conquere the galaxy.

You can still start from scratch on the games in the 'series,' but the option is there to play a game from origins to galactic conquest.

[Grrr]

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 11-08-2000 07:01 AM I couldn't agree more with what Andy said. Have you gone out of your mind ?!. Sometimes I feel like wanting to cleanse the Americans of the earth, because from time to time they seem so utterly ignorant, arrogant (or whatever frustrates me) like you do now. But what about us dutch ??? Got anything against our eastern neighbours, are you still living in the past ???. Maybe you could be standing model for a new unit, the fool, decreases happiness and increases frustration tolerance. AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG

What a good idea, a FOOL is probably the best idea yet, however, it should be a diplomatic specialist to sabotage opponents cities.

Die Racists

[Grumbold]

I agree that Civ2 was sensible in naming a few techs that we can alteady see on the horizon then merging into its nameless "Future Tech" stuff. Leave true future speculation to Moo3 (or SMAC if you insist on colonising that horrible pink furball

If Civ3 finished with the completion and launch of the first true interstellar probes rather than a definite spaceship to a definite planet it would leave the needed ambiguity about what happens next. By the time a spaceship really could head off for AC there would certainly be the means and the incentive to begin the colonisation of other bodies in this solar system.