The Apolyton Standard - Page 2

Optimizer · February 27, 2002, 22:55

I just want to say that I would support this idea.

Harovan · February 28, 2002, 07:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Well it's going to be called the Builders Dream mod actually.

Nice name, Willem. I'm looking forward to try it.

I like the idea of taking an existing mod as a discussion base. Unfortunately, I am not much into mod using yet, so I can't recommend any myself. Is anybody out there, who has tried several mods and can say which ones are worth to be taken in a poll?

moomin · February 28, 2002, 10:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Well it's going to be called the Builders Dream mod actually.

No, you won't! I've already made the Bilders Dream mod, and if I see your work called that then you're in for a date with my legal representatives!

Just kiddin', of course. I made a map called Builders Dream some time ago, which has been quite popular with over at CivFan (couln't post it here since Poly was down back then...). If you make your mod perhaps you could bundle the map for some real unlimited builder extravarganza :-)

Rhuarc · February 28, 2002, 14:57

I have tried both the LWC mod and BALANCER mod, I think that one of these two would be a good to start for the Apolyton Standard mod. Both of these balanced the game, but also changed the tech tree around added units, governements, etc... We could go in and decided what should and should not be changed in the mod. We can also decided what else we want to add or take out as far as techs, governements, units and other things go. So, what does everyone think?

godinex · February 28, 2002, 15:18

Go on my litlle boys

Rhuarc · February 28, 2002, 15:53

Well, which idea does everyone like better? Do you think we should go off of an existing mod or statrt from scratch? What does everyone thibnk?

Willem · February 28, 2002, 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhuarc
Well, which idea does everyone like better? Do you think we should go off of an existing mod or statrt from scratch? What does everyone thibnk?

Why not do both? Just start putting something together and if a mod shows up that has some interesting features, then incorporate them into the "official" mod. Let it be an organic thing, so if someone comes along down the road with some good ideas, like a cool new unit etc., it can be added in at that time.

Harovan · February 28, 2002, 16:37

An existing mod, of course. But I begin to doubt that the time has yet come for a standard.

Best would be if somebody would take time and post a summary of the existing mods (the bigger ones) and makes a poll, which one should be taken as base for a standard, to be discussed later. Of course, the mod author shall agree, because it will mean additional work for him.

This "somebody" should be one of those, who already uses mods, that was why I asked yesterday.

Willem · February 28, 2002, 16:41

Quote:

Originally posted by moominparatrooper

No, you won't! I've already made the Bilders Dream mod, and if I see your work called that then you're in for a date with my legal representatives!

Just kiddin', of course. I made a map called Builders Dream some time ago, which has been quite popular with over at CivFan (couln't post it here since Poly was down back then...). If you make your mod perhaps you could bundle the map for some real unlimited builder extravarganza :-)

Well thanks for pointing that out, I think I'll change it to Builder's Glory just so I avoid any possibility of confusion. And no offence, I suspect yours is a great map, but I personally like to play with a random map. It's not as much fun if you know where everything is. The exploration part is one of my favourite aspects of the game, so a premade map wouldn't be as enjoyable second time around.

Hrnac · February 28, 2002, 23:37

Count me in on this excellent idea. What I would do to start is do a side by side comparrison of the following mods:

1. Vel's (and others) No name mod
2. Korn's blitz mod
3. The LWC mod
4. The balancer mod

These mods contain a lot of work and the first thing to do would be to look for comon items among them. These common items could be adopted first and serve as the foundation for the Apolyton Civ 3 mod.

If people are interested in this approach, I will start doing some research on these four Mods. Let me know.

-Hrnac

kimmygibler · February 28, 2002, 23:50

No idea how that pack became "the standard"

Because there was a lot of work put into it. Most common gamers are not able to create such a thing. Also, the game was pretty poor to begin with.

I think the most likely thing that will happen is once a proper editor is released people will start making their own mods available for download. (happening already) Eventually when MP comes around I presume there will be some favourites that get used a lot.

Encomium · March 1, 2002, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
Right, i've been playing around with this idea in my mind for some time now. Basically I dont like the values that Civ III ships with, Things like the cost of Espionage, and the Super Corruption. For me (and many others) Firaxis got things wrong,In some ways Historically, and in others the fun in gameplay is simply reduced.

No problem though, There's an Editor right.... well there is a problem. How many people are reluctant to change things in the Editor, because they feel they are 'cheating' and it would somehow take the shine of victory. I know i do, I make many changes in the Editor , but i think twice always before doing so, and havent made many i would like to. I have seen people say before they wish FIRAXIS would make these changes, because they dont want to do it in the Editor.

Well, What i propose is we build a New Standard for Civ III - The Apolyton Standard. Here , a Team of us could take votes on issues, on changes we'd like to make to the game. We should vote according several criteria (I'll list them later) and if the Majority agree with the change, it goes into the standard. We Could then publish the final (although there is no reason why this project cant be ongoing) changes for all to see and attatch a Civ3mod.bic for people to download. Even if one doesnt wish to download this, they can at least look at the changes and, if they wanted to implement some of them, they will have piece of mind it had been voted as fair to do so.

We could perhaps even use this new rule set in Tournement games??? Who knows.

The Criteria on which i think i should an idea should be judged should be
1. Does it unbalance the game
2. Will the change make the game more fun and/or Less Tedious
3. (and least important IMO) How does this affect Realism

Have a think about it.....

An "Apolyton Standard"?? I can just imagine the arguments about it!! No one would ever be satisified, especially those who us who know and care about History.

Firaxis slapped together unit and other values apparently over too many beers. Everything related to espionage is ridiculously high. Strategic resources (especially coal and iron) are much too rare. Military units?? A joke, most silly in that the difference between units from different Ages is so small. Gunpowder-era units should almost always handle swordsmen and pikemen.

"Cheating"?? That assumes someone is naive and foolish enough to think Firaxis' values make sense. They don't - either in playability or history.

I am happy with my Edited values. AND THEY APPLY TO ALL CIVS IN THE GAME. End of story.

Rhuarc · March 1, 2002, 01:48

Hrnac,

That would be great for you to start comparing the mods. From what I have seen and used of them I feel that Blitz's is probably the best one yet. However, the BALANCER and LWC mods are also quite good. It just depends on which one you would want to use.

Harovan · March 1, 2002, 05:31

Hrnac,

if you feel inspired to do the great work, go ahead. I am sure people will support you. May be you create a poll and point in the starting message the main features of those 4 mods out. Hopefully, this poll will have a big resonance, or else it would be not right to call the result a "standard".

Encomium,

That's a game, not a simulation. It has not to be absolutely accurate, no game can be, and no simulation either. It has to follow certain rules, and if you don't like the rules, feel free to change them till they please you, but stop to call people "foolish". There are no "Archers", "Spearmen" and "Tanks" fighting, but merely data structures, controlled by a (pseudo) random number generator. "Random" means, the results aren't predictable, and surprises always possible. If you can't accept this, and are this way into "real life", why don't you go out and get one?

korn469 · March 1, 2002, 06:40

here is my take on things, it's only an opinion so feel free to reach your own conclusions

but trying to get the great majority of apolyton (at least in the modding community) to come to a consenus would be a major triumph

while i think the devil is in the details (should we add one new tech? or four? or fifty?) i do think that a few common ideas are begining to appear in most of the mods

*more hitpoints
*fascism
*more buildings
*faster ships
*strengthen barbarians
*more productive specialists that come with a certain tech
*one of the versions of the more city names mod, which i think sevorak's is the basis for all

those changes are pretty much universal, however, each different mod has it's own individual version of each of the above items, and i don't think any two mods have yet to agree on all of the items listed above

but if you were going to start anywhere, i would start there

also the higher level goals should be in order of importance

*improve gameplay
*improve balance
*maintain or improve the AI

any mod that forgets those three things will not emerge as a standard that will stand the test of time

and one other thing to consider is that civ3 is still changing so without constant updates and intensive playtesting any mod that does not update will fade away

EDIT: one last thing, this mod should not really be in competition with the other mods, but should instead look in each of the playblance mods and if a uniform idea stands out it should take and refine that idea, instead of creating a super mod from scratch it should try to merge the existing mods into one

all ideas from the blitz mod are available, all i ask is a mention of the blitz mod, and i could see a day in the future when one or more of the playbalance mods combine into a single mod that is the best of both, and comes packaged with a map and a graphics mod

Harovan · March 1, 2002, 07:00

Very good, korn. I would like add a couple of goals:

- Reduce the number of dead-end techs.
- Make techs more useful. Example: Why does the tech "Radio" not add radio stations that fight war weariness with "propaganda"?
- Reduce the number of commonly useless units (Explorers etc.), see this thread.
- "Improve gameplay" should mean: Add more fun to the game. Fun is the key.

korn469 · March 1, 2002, 07:08

Sir Ralph

notice i said higher level goals

it's easy to decide on the big things, but coming to a consenus that not only reflects opinion but reflects actual gameplay results will be much harder

also gameplay is almost equal to fun, i guess my definition is aof gameplay is commonly accepted principles of fun, because each person has their own definition of fun that is usually quite subjective, if you can decide on a few rules you'll follow to get good gamplay then the standard will have consistancy which is a big thing

Optimizer · March 10, 2002, 01:14

Hmm...

Will anything happen?