A real reason why tech race looks like me vs World

[player1]

It's a tech devalvation.
Tech value depends from % of known civs wich have it.

So if you have tech that nodbody has, it will have for ex. 100 gold value.
After you sell it to one guy it will be worth less (for ex. 70gp)
After you give it to third, 4th etc.. vaule will be much lower.

It's not only a vaule, it's also a research cost.

So that's the main reason (exept of bonuses on higher levels) why tech lead is diffcult to achieve. Mechanic is same form first patch. It's just that AI now KNOWS to use it.

Now falling behind in tech is also diffcult, since all known tech become so cheap to research (or buy). If it happens (falling behind), that's probably since you are playing on higher diffculty where AI get bonuses.



Ways to fix this:
There is only one real solution. Lower tech devalvation. That way tech won't become cheap, so not all AIs will be capable of buying it.
Unfortunately it can't be done in Editor so we'll need to wait for Firaxis for some solution.

Tech devalvation == Tech leader vs World

Which doesn't need to be bad thing. Still it shuld be lowered a little.

[korn469]

Ways to fix this:
There is only one real solution. Lower tech devalvation. That way tech won't become cheap, so not all AIs will be capable of buying it.
Unfortunately it can't be done in Editor so we'll need to wait for Firaxis for some solution

the only thing is that if they set the devaluation level too high then the human will again the only one to take advantage of tech whoring

back in SMAC in the quickest transcend thread, i pioneered using tiny maps and then subjugating all of the other factions then basically the human coordinates everyone's research so that a transcend victory (comparable to the space ship victory in civ) would take less than than 80 turns, i think zsozso did it in under 70 turns

basically the AI automatically coordinates research with itself in Civ3, as soon as one civ gets a technology it sells it to the civ with the most money, then as the tech devalues the sell it for less and less, and even if the first civ doesn't sell it one of the others will unless a civ is either human or just broke, but the human will sell the tech to all other civs if it can get a decent amount from one or two of the civs, because they know it's better to get a little from the AI rather than to let the other AIs sell them tech

this means that if a civ gets isolated, while all of the other civs are close enough to get contact, then those civs can make it to the industrial age before the isolated civ even makes it out of the ancient era, while this is quite realistic, it doesn't make for good play balance

with the current civ tech system, if there was multiplayer in the game, then on a standard map with 8 players playing a coordinate game trying for an early space ship victory, the optional number of techs might approach 8 tech per 4 turns

what doesn't add up is that you can't research a tech faster than 4 turns per tech, but you can easily end up trading for like 4 techs in a turn

in the normal game on up to at least monarch, if you manage to get one high level tech first (republic and monarchy are two good techs to do this with), even if you are fairly far behind in tech, as long as you have contact with the other civs you can trade that for basically everything you lack by trading it for their most valuable techs when your tech is worth alot and trading for their less costly techs as it devalues, there is something highly wrong with that

here is what i'm thinking, how the AI values a tech, for both buying and selling should be more heavily dependent upon relations, and the AI should have relations with each other

for example if the greeks and the romans were in a military alliance against persia, greece and they have polite relations (or whatever is best i don't exactly remember right now) then maybe let the relationship be 1:1 that the greeks would sell the tech at the same price they would buy it for, however if they are furious at the germans (although still at peace) then maybe the ration should be like .25:3 meaning that they would only pay 25% of normal and that they would sell it for 3 times their normal rate

additionally, there should be a "lets keep this a secret option" where BOTH sides promise not to sell or trade the tech for 20 turns, or it will trigger a war, or other really bad diplomatic reaction

this would protech each side from abuses by the other, i mean why should the romans not be allowed to sell a tech they purchased from the greek to the germans because of an agreement if the greeks could wait a few turns for the german treasury to build up since they know the romans can't sell it

this could also work to make the game better

i dunno something needs to be done, but i'm not sure what exactly, though i think those two things would help

[solo]

I certainly agree with korn that relations should figure somehow into how much an AI will charge or have to pay for a tech.

In my first post-patch game, I gave Germany about 6 techs for free in order to trade for its scientific freebie by facilitating his entry into the Modern Age. When I asked what Germany wanted for Rocketry, he wanted an exorbitant amount because no one else had that tech yet. My tech gifts and peaceful relations should have knocked a lot off the asking price.

[Arrian]

Player1,

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion (after Soren explained the mechanic in the "1.17 and AI vs. AI tech 'trading'" thread), that tech devaluation is the main problem. I suggested a "floor" for the value of techs. Basically, there should be devaluation, but only to an extent. It's tough to balance, I think, but one thing I know is that Fission should never, EVER, be "worth" 1 gold (actual offer I received from the English, who had 600 gold kicking around, and would be "insulted" by 2 gold). It just needs tweaking, and so does the overall tech progress rate on the higher levels (hitting industrial times in 1000AD on Monarch is a tad too fast).

-Arrian

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Arrian
Player1,

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion (after Soren explained the mechanic in the "1.17 and AI vs. AI tech 'trading'" thread), that tech devaluation is the main problem. I suggested a "floor" for the value of techs. Basically, there should be devaluation, but only to an extent. It's tough to balance, I think, but one thing I know is that Fission should never, EVER, be "worth" 1 gold (actual offer I received from the English, who had 600 gold kicking around, and would be "insulted" by 2 gold). It just needs tweaking, and so does the overall tech progress rate on the higher levels (hitting industrial times in 1000AD on Monarch is a tad too fast).

-Arrian

I would love to see a save game example of this (particularly near the late game...) It is certainly possible under the current system but also highly unlikely, so I'm curious if there is an unknown factor affecting things...

[godinex]

hey thats real it happen to a uncle a of a friend of my bro!

[solo]

Arrian and Soren,

I have seen very small offers for new techs in the modern era too, but I assumed this was because the AI was just 1 turn away from learning the tech in question. It's too bad I did not save that game at that time to provide an example.

However, while on this topic, I do have a save involving what appear to be other irregularities in tech trades if Soren would like to see it.

[Arrian]

Soren,

As we discussed in the Tech Trading thread, it's possible that, due to a combo of their own research and tech devaluation, that the English were 1 turn from Fission (even so, I still don't think 1 gold is acceptable). However, I don't have a saved game that could duplicate that. I do have a saved game later on, when the only remaining civs are me, Germany and France. I could try tech deals with them to see what happens... I'll check it out tonight. If I come across anything like that Fission deal, I will definitely save it, zip it, and send it your way.

-Arrian

p.s I'm KICKING MYSELF for not saving the game when my advisor told me Elizabeth would be insulted for 2 gold = Fission deal.

[player1]

Maybe there is an additional problem.

Main question is what happens when somebody get tech you were researching.
Tech price drops.
Now will that mean that is you researched 500 bulbs (science points) and price droped to less then 500 bulbs, that your tech will become 1gp worth and you'll get it in one turn.

If so, then that needs chages.

I would suggest research scaling.
If you discovered 50%, that it should stay on 50%.
If price droped form 1000 to 500, and you had researched 500 bulbs then your should have only 250 bulbs.

[Arrian]

Player1,

I disagree with that. Here's what I think:

The lowest "price" a tech should drop to is 40% of its full value. So, if a tech is normally worth 100 beakers (bulbs), the lowest it can ever get is 40 bulbs, even if 7 out of 8 civs know it.

Now, lets say you are researching a tech worth 100 beakers, and have accumulated 50 of them. Two civs, out of eight, discover the tech (and we assume you know them).

2/8 = 25%. However, only 60% of the tech's total value can possibly be discounted, so it's actually 25% of 60% = 15%. So the tech now costs 85 beakers... you are still 35 short. Under the current system, the tech would drop to a 75 beaker cost, and you would be 25 short.

I used 40% as the "floor" for this example, but I really don't know if that's the best number. It's gotta be tested.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

I just had an idea...

Soren, I have a question about how the devaluation works. Is it possible that devaluation screws up the 4-turn cap? Let's say you start researching a tech, and it will take 8 turns, current research speed. Next turn (so 7 to go), a bunch of the AI's get the tech, and the price drops such that, at your current research rate, you would only need 2 more turns to complete it. Would you be able to get it in 2 turns, or would it only drop to 3 (since you already spent one turn on it, three more would make the minimum four)?

-Arrian

[Quantum]

I don't think devaluation works like that. I don't recall ever seeing the "turns until tech advance" number decrease suddenly like that (unless the decrease is the result of building a library, etc, thus increasing my bulbs/turn). I think the number of bulbs you need to research the tech is determined when you choose the tech to work toward, and that that number stays constant regardless of what the AI civs do.

[player1]

Originally posted by Quantum
I don't think devaluation works like that. I don't recall ever seeing the "turns until tech advance" number decrease suddenly like that (unless the decrease is the result of building a library, etc, thus increasing my bulbs/turn). I think the number of bulbs you need to research the tech is determined when you choose the tech to work toward, and that that number stays constant regardless of what the AI civs do.

It happens to me all the time.
Even before 1.17f

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Quantum
I don't think devaluation works like that. I don't recall ever seeing the "turns until tech advance" number decrease suddenly like that (unless the decrease is the result of building a library, etc, thus increasing my bulbs/turn). I think the number of bulbs you need to research the tech is determined when you choose the tech to work toward, and that that number stays constant regardless of what the AI civs do.

No, trust me, I've seen my "turns to go" number drop drastically without me adjusting my science rate, building an libraries, or anything like that. Devaluation definitely effects your tech rate on a turn by turn basis. I'm just wondering whether or not it can actually circumvent the 4 turn cap. I doubt it, and I haven't tested for it or ever noticed it, but it occurred to me as possible, so I asked.

-Arrian

[Quantum]

OK, so I'm wrong. I play on regent a lot and often have a tech lead so maybe that is why I haven't noticed.
In my current game, though, I am stuck on a small land mass with two weak civs. From the demographics info, it seems that the other civs are on a large land mass and are tech trading a lot with each other . I'll keep my eyes out for the effect you're talking about.

[Aeson]

In every case I've seen of tech devaluation while I was researching it, it still honored the 4 turn limit. Sometimes a tech would jump down to 1 turn remaining, but only if 3 or more turns of research had already gone into it. Sometimes I research 3 turns into a tech at 10% then keep research at 0% while checking each turn if raising it would finish the researching. This can result in very cheap research while maximizing your treasury, but will never get you the lead in a tech race. On Deity in many cases by the time my first 3 turns of research at 10% is done, every other Civ has the advance. I could have left my research at 70-100% and gotten it in 4 turns, but this way I get it for 3 turns of 10% and then another turn at whatever rate it takes. Either way it takes the same amount of time.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by player1


It happens to me all the time.
Even before 1.17f

I'm sorry Soren, but it also happens to me all the time.

AJ

[solo]

Attached is a save file illustrating an AI trading technique in a game using the 1.17 patch, in which the human player was denied income which might have been expected from trading new techs. The save was made in 1300, shortly after the Theory of Gravity was built. ToE generated two new techs, Steel and Combustion. By loading this save and following the steps below, some AI trading chicanery will be detected:

1) All the AI lack Steel and Combustion and France is the only one with Atomic Theory, having just discovered it. This can be verified by making contact with each AI.

2) It is not a smart trade, but France will give up Atomic Theory now if asked, for only Steel, a World Map, 2481 gold and 24 gold/turn. Accept this deal.

3) Now the Aztecs will give up 50 gold and 11 gold/turn if you trade them Atomic Theory. Accept this deal, and now see what they will offer for Steel. Only 4 gold. It appears the Aztecs are broke and can not afford more, so do not trade Steel to them.

4) End the turn by hitting return.

5) Now make contact with the Aztecs again. Notice that they now have Military Tradition and that they no longer need any Steel. It would appear that they just learned Military Tradition and were able to trade it to the French for Steel. They also have some more gold because they will now offer Military Tradition, a World Map, 5 gold and 23 gold/turn for Combustion. Accept this deal.

6) Now contact the French. Note that they do NOT have Military Tradition yet. They will accept your copy in exchange for Furs, Saltpeter and 17 gold. You can also sell them Combustion now for at least Dyes, Iron and 20 gold.


The key thing these transactions reveal is that somehow the Aztecs were able to obtain Steel from the French without giving up anything in return. A careful check of resource and luxury allotments before and after these trades do not show any changes. In one short turn, the Aztecs have also managed to regain considerable purchasing power, as can be seen by the trade of Combustion in Step 5 above. Also note that since the Aztecs had just learned Military Tradition, Steel was still completely un-researched by them, and hence, still quite valuable.

Now I’ve read a post be Soren where he says that the AI trade by all the same rules imposed on the human player, and that he considers it unfair to the human for one AI to demand and get tribute from another just to even things up. All I can conclude, is that they ARE allowed, and often DO, give each other substantial gifts, as this is the only way I can explain how the Aztecs acquired Steel and the means to purchase Combustion.

Incidently, another thing worth puzzling over is what happened to the 2481 in gold traded to the French in Step 2? Where did all that cash disappear too? It is possible that some items being built were rushed with this gold or that espionage was used a lot by the French the turn after receiving all of it, by I suspect that the AI may have the capability of storing their gold in “per/turn capability accounts”, in order to disguise their real wealth. During this game, the AI rarely had more than 50 gold on hand, and this might be the reason.

The situation in this example is not exactly the same as the one about Nuclear Fission described in Arian’s post, but it could be that the same underlying mechanism is at work, i.e. once an AI “knows” it can get a tech from another AI for free, rather than from the human player, why offer the human more than a token amount?

[Aeson]

There is one other possibility I can think of. Perhaps the Aztecs had been paying gold per turn to one of the other AI, say a rather large amount. That turn the deal expired (after your turn) and freed up a lot of the Aztecs commerce. They then traded most of that per turn gold for Steel. Since you and the French both had it, it would have been discounted quite a bit. The AI can also get things for up to half price, but I would assume it only happens when everything the AI has to trade is given in the trade. If you were on a higher difficulty level, Steel could have been quite cheap for the Aztecs. Just judging by your trade involving Steel, the AI had quite a beaker bonus.

[solo]

That's a good point, Aeson, and I may play around with an earlier save to try and initiate a trade with the Aztecs that produces similar results before that possible deal expires. I do sort of doubt there was a deal like that, but if there was, it could have only existed between the French and Aztecs, since the Germans had nothing, and my deals with the Aztecs, if I remember correctly, still had not expired.

I think I may also try reversing roles, by trading with the Aztecs first, to see if the French become broke and recover from this one turn later, just as the Aztecs did.

What is most interesting to me in this game, though, was that gold/turn deals did not happen at all until this part of the game, and did not commence until possibly "seeded" by my 1040 gold purchase of Refining from the French, just prior to building the Theory of Gravity. Up until then, all my tech deals had involved very little gold.

One other note, is that such AI activity, assuming some chicanery might be going on, does not bother me personally, as there are ways to play around such AI tactics.

I'll run a few tests on the save and get back about this. The game was on deity level, btw.

[Arrian]

Complicated stuff, but definitely worth pursuing. Do let us know what you find out guys.

I will say this: I may have overeacted slightly to 1.17. I still think that certain things are out of wack, but I'm learning to cope with the changes. Most of those changes were good. The only issues I really have with it still are the overall pace of tech advancement and the degree to which tech loses value once others know it.

I'm so annoyed I didn't save my Egyptian game with the 1gold for fission offer. I reloaded my last save, but it was way past that (the English, who made the offer, were now dead). I tried playing around with some trades, but couldn't recreate anything that crazy. Oh well, I will just have to look out for it in the future.

-Arrian

[korn469]

solo

I am not sure if this is possible but maybe you can verify it

If the player is poor the AI does not ask for tribute, it doesn't matter how much of a power difference there is the AI usually won't hit a player up for cash unless the player has some, the richer the player is the more likely the AI is to just demand cash and techs and if they player doesn't turn them over the AI will simply declare war, so if the Aztecs are more powerful than the French, could the French have reached the point where the Aztecs demand from the French?

also as far as we know strength comes from number of units, so if an AI has 50 regular warriors it thinks that is is even with a player that has 50 elite modern armor units, so as long as the Aztecs had more units this is possible, i will take a look at the save and report back

EDIT: one other thing, in the editor there is this variable called cost factor, which i know for a fact cuts shield cost, and food costs in half, it also most likely cuts tech costs in half as well

depending upon exactly how the AI computes the the science cost of a tech into the price it is willing to pay then this cost explain why it offers low prices to buy your science, and the science of other AIs, but since tech cost twice as much science for the player the AI thinks it techs are worth more

like if the player and the AI all had the same amount of techs, and then the player and AI both discover a tech with equal tech costs, on diety the AI might only be willing to pay 50 for the player's tech, while wanting 100 for its own, then on monarch it would pay 100 and want 100, and thenon chieftan it would pay 200 and want 100

then if it discounts techs on diety it would be willing to sell techs to other AIs for 25

this all depends on how science cost to price the AI is willing to pay and sell techs for is calculated though

[solo]

Arrian,

The more I fool around with this, the less logic there seems to be with what's going on. For example, if I load the 1295 save, a turn prior to the save used above (and the same turn I completed ToE), the Aztecs are willing to part with a World Map, 49 gold per turn, and 35 gold in exchange for Steel. Then, when offered combustion, they will only offer a world map. This is a significantly higher supply of gold than what they had to offer in the trading sequence listed in my previous post. If I return to that sequence and trade Steel to the Aztecs in step 3 for only 4 gold and then see what they will offer for Combustion, which only I possess, they claim to have nothing to offer in exchange. If so, what happened to that extra 38 gpt they had in the 1295 trade, at a time where they were still researching Military Tradition and the when the French had yet to learn Atomic Theory, and when no tech trades were possible between the two? Other trading sequences and combinations also yield surprising and hard to explain results, some quite counter to some inferences suggested in the previous post. Hmm. Just shows how dangerous it is to draw premature conclusions with only limited access to information about what is really going on.

korn,

Your tribute idea makes the most sense, and explains what might have happened the best, but I do distinctly remember a post by Soren where he said this is not done between the AI. I will try to check out relative strengths, though I believe the French were strongest.

I've always been convinced about what you say about the cost factor, too. Whenever I have had a new tech and tried to trade it to an AI in deity games for a tech of equivalent editor cost, I've had to add more gold or value to the deal in order to get the AI to agree to the trade. However, I have never seen them willing to part with any tech, no matter how rusty, for the pitiful amounts they sometimes proffer for my new ones. I believe there is more than relative tech costs going on in such exhanges.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by solo
Attached is a save file illustrating an AI trading technique in a game using the 1.17 patch, in which the human player was denied income which might have been expected from trading new techs. The save was made in 1300, shortly after the Theory of Gravity was built. ToE generated two new techs, Steel and Combustion. By loading this save and following the steps below, some AI trading chicanery will be detected:

1) All the AI lack Steel and Combustion and France is the only one with Atomic Theory, having just discovered it. This can be verified by making contact with each AI.

2) It is not a smart trade, but France will give up Atomic Theory now if asked, for only Steel, a World Map, 2481 gold and 24 gold/turn. Accept this deal.

3) Now the Aztecs will give up 50 gold and 11 gold/turn if you trade them Atomic Theory. Accept this deal, and now see what they will offer for Steel. Only 4 gold. It appears the Aztecs are broke and can not afford more, so do not trade Steel to them.

4) End the turn by hitting return.

5) Now make contact with the Aztecs again. Notice that they now have Military Tradition and that they no longer need any Steel. It would appear that they just learned Military Tradition and were able to trade it to the French for Steel. They also have some more gold because they will now offer Military Tradition, a World Map, 5 gold and 23 gold/turn for Combustion. Accept this deal.

6) Now contact the French. Note that they do NOT have Military Tradition yet. They will accept your copy in exchange for Furs, Saltpeter and 17 gold. You can also sell them Combustion now for at least Dyes, Iron and 20 gold.


The key thing these transactions reveal is that somehow the Aztecs were able to obtain Steel from the French without giving up anything in return. A careful check of resource and luxury allotments before and after these trades do not show any changes. In one short turn, the Aztecs have also managed to regain considerable purchasing power, as can be seen by the trade of Combustion in Step 5 above. Also note that since the Aztecs had just learned Military Tradition, Steel was still completely un-researched by them, and hence, still quite valuable.

Now I’ve read a post be Soren where he says that the AI trade by all the same rules imposed on the human player, and that he considers it unfair to the human for one AI to demand and get tribute from another just to even things up. All I can conclude, is that they ARE allowed, and often DO, give each other substantial gifts, as this is the only way I can explain how the Aztecs acquired Steel and the means to purchase Combustion.

Incidently, another thing worth puzzling over is what happened to the 2481 in gold traded to the French in Step 2? Where did all that cash disappear too? It is possible that some items being built were rushed with this gold or that espionage was used a lot by the French the turn after receiving all of it, by I suspect that the AI may have the capability of storing their gold in “per/turn capability accounts”, in order to disguise their real wealth. During this game, the AI rarely had more than 50 gold on hand, and this might be the reason.

The situation in this example is not exactly the same as the one about Nuclear Fission described in Arian’s post, but it could be that the same underlying mechanism is at work, i.e. once an AI “knows” it can get a tech from another AI for free, rather than from the human player, why offer the human more than a token amount?

ok, you piqued my interest enough to find out what was going on... It turns out that the Aztecs had a deal paying the French 58 gpt which expired during this turn. Thus, that freed up enough gpt to purchase Steel from the French. That is where they suddenly got the money the didn't seem to have earlier.

In other words, if you conducted the same scenario one turn earlier, the Aztecs would not have been able to buy Steel because there gold was still locked up.

[player1]

Hey, Soren!

What do you think about lowering tech devalvation by making some minimum tech cost (research & gold).

Like for ex. min of 30% of full value.

No one has it 100%
One civ has it 90%
Two civs have it 80%
3 civs have it 70%
4 civs have it 60 %
5 civs have it 50%
6 civs have it 40%
7 civs have it 30%

What do you think?

P.S.
These values should be used when having contact with all 8 civs.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by player1
Hey, Soren!

What do you think about lowering tech devalvation by making some minimum tech cost (research & gold).

Like for ex. min of 30% of full value.

No one has it 100%
One civ has it 90%
Two civs have it 80%
3 civs have it 70%
4 civs have it 60 %
5 civs have it 50%
6 civs have it 40%
7 civs have it 30%

What do you think?

P.S.
These values should be used when having contact with all 8 civs.

There already is a floor for tech devaluation. It is (1 / number of active civs). However, we are considering raising it...

[player1]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
There already is a floor for tech devaluation. It is (1 / number of active civs). However, we are considering raising it...

Yes, you should make it:

CONST + [1/(number of active KNOWN civs)]

I think that const of 20-30% would be OK.

[Hurricane]

I think my thread in the general forum can point out some things discussed here, most notably a point where the Chinese sold a worthless World Map (i.e. one that everybody was given the turn before) for Philosophy and 20 gold to the Egyptians. Read the details here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=43821

I also have a screenshot of a deal where I bought Theory of Gravity for 1 gold from the French, who were Furious with me:

[Hurricane]

Here is the savegame from the 1 gold deal. Just talk to the French and ask what they need for Theory of Gravity. They will ask for 1 gold.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Hurricane
I think my thread in the general forum can point out some things discussed here, most notably a point where the Chinese sold a worthless World Map (i.e. one that everybody was given the turn before) for Philosophy and 20 gold to the Egyptians. Read the details here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=43821

I also have a screenshot of a deal where I bought Theory of Gravity for 1 gold from the French, who were Furious with me:

Could you post a saved game for the Theory of Gravity deal?

thanks...