How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism?

[Az]

errm... what national socialism has to do with it?

[Solly]

National(ist) - patriotic
Socialism - where the means of production is owned by the workers



Next question.

[Az]

My question was :

well, now what is National Socialism for you , Boddington's ?

note , this is your post, your supposed reply.:

Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient.

this is capitalism .

now my question is :

errm... what national socialism has to do with it?

if you want to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of capitalism , we can do it , but don't confuse it with the " National Socialism"... alas, even that we won't be able to do right now , since I am going to bed.

Dalgetti out.

[Solly]

10 minutes ago.

[Solly]

I think you need your sleep.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Boddington's
Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient.

I think you are forgetting some major factors in that equation: luck, dishonesty and ruthless ambition

So next you are going to tell us that you are one of those social darwinists are you?

[Solly]

Luck? There's no such think as luck, only risk-takers and entrepreneurs. If you're willing to take an educated risk, you'll go far in a capitalist system.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Ecthelion

Faded Glory, I won't discuss the Stalin issue any further, it doesn't lead anywhere. But please explain me how sending people into gulags is linked to socialism or communism respectively? Stalin was not really a communist, and you'll find that the later governments of the USSR and East Europe took a big distance to Stalinist ideals and the cult about hsi person or any ruling person at all.

Stalin claimed to be a Communist. Alas if it is not true communism...ok, thats great. But I can sit here all day, and make an arguement flip-side about Fascism. How the philosphy was "Hijacked" by Hitler and how it really leads to some bullcrap utopia where we all get free food, and live under a bio-dome. Err.....whatevr.


all the communists on this thread are full ****. Theres just too much piles of **** to step in. But Im just going to say your all living in a ****in dream. When the search for profits end, all reason to continue doing business ends....and I could address other things. But I'de rather go chill at a bar-stool somewhere downtown for the next few hours.


See-Ya's!

[Velociryx]

::sigh:: What's it gonna take? How many times to communist regiems have to utterly collapse before people will finally "get" that communism...the notion of a planned, state controlled economly DOESN'T WORK!? And it sure as hell doesn't outproduce, or become more efficient than an essentially capitalistic system.

In the first place, the larger part of worker motivation STEMS FROM the private ownership of property. Unhappy with your current job, come up with an idea, get a loan to BUY some property and BUILD a small factory, warehouse, or whathaveyou, bust your A$$ and make it happen.

A centrally planned economy can't compete with this guy, cos he's in it for his life....and what motivates those in a planned economy? Job security? That's a pretty slender reed to base much of anything on.

Study economics and history...know what you'll find? A bunch of hobbled and broken down communistic regiems, and a bunch of capitalists on top of the world.

Hmmm....maybe there's a lesson there?

-=Vel=-

[Solly]

Study economics and history...know what you'll find? A bunch of hobbled and broken down communistic regiems, and a bunch of capitalists on top of the world.

Yep.

[axi]

I wrote this when the topic was on page one, but I was unable to get online and post it. Nothing seems to have changed though. Note that this is a very strange thread, a sort of inverse trolling since the topic starter is posting what it seems a self-evident and moral opinion, only to see it attacked!
----------------------------------------------------------

Hitler killed more Soviet citizens than Stalin. Had he won, we would have killed more and sent the rest to Siberia. In "Mein kampf" Hitler claimed that all slavic populations should be subjugated and work as serfs for the Reich.

I agree with Echtelion. Shame on you! How can you possibly compare? But of course all answers that favor the Nazis come from people who never had a Nazi occupation in their country. :q And who of course have been brainwashed most with anticommunist propaganda! :q

My father who was a child then, has been hauled three times, along with my grandmother, to the shooting yard, because the Nazi policy was ten random civilians shot for every German soldier killed by the resistance. My grandfather had fled to the mountains. My father was organised in gangs of kids who were systematically stealing food from the German warehouses to feed their families. I was raised with stories from the Occupation.

So naturally, when I read such things, I feel a chill down my spine.

This might not be so strange. The western bourgeois were preferring the Nazis to the Communists and they were ready to come to terms with them in an unholy alliance against the "Reds", specially the USA. That's why they were all shocked when the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed in 1939.

Conclusion: The proletarians may be those who "have no fatherland", but it's always the bourgeois that end up as traitors. :q

[faded glory]

Hitler killed more Soviet citizens than Stalin. Had he won, we would have killed more and sent the rest to Siberia. In "Mein kampf" Hitler claimed that all slavic populations should be subjugated and work as serfs for the Reich.

But he didnt....so give it up. He didnt kill as much as Stalin, and you know it.

course all answers that favor the Nazis come from people who never had a Nazi occupation in their country

Same with the other side? Right?

My father who was a child then, has been hauled three times, along with my grandmother, to the shooting yard, because the Nazi policy was ten random civilians shot for every German soldier killed by the resistance. My grandfather had fled to the mountains. My father was organised in gangs of kids who were systematically stealing food from the German warehouses to feed their families.

Oh and I bet your traumatized!

The western bourgeois were preferring the Nazis to the Communists and they were ready to come to terms with them in an unholy alliance against the "Reds", specially the USA. That's why they were all shocked when the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed in 1939.

Stop calling them Burgeois. And that is a load of bullshit. Thats an opinion. Fascism is an enemy of Capitalism, as is Communism. There is no capitalist alliance with Fascism...Fascism Nationalize's everything like communism...olny difference being the government doesnt put the money on social services. Rather, uses it to create command economy.

Conclusion: The proletarians may be those who "have no fatherland", but it's always the bourgeois that end up as traitors

Conclusion: The above is a load of crap.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by faded glory
Oh and I bet your traumatized!

That was really insensitive

500.000 people died in WW2 most of them civilian and most of them during the Nazi occupation.

Most people have lost one or more of their families during that time to executions and torture from the Nazis as well as to starvation.

The new generation has not directly suffered from it but.. anyway why am I trying to explain anything...

[faded glory]

Originally posted by paiktis22


That was really insensitive

500.000 people died in WW2 most of them civilian and most of them during the Nazi occupation.

Most people have lost one or more of their families during that time to executions and torture from the Nazis as well as to starvation.

The new generation has not directly suffered from it but.. anyway why am I trying to explain anything...

I grew up with such stories too. My grandfather being a German soldier. And when I was older, he said he had no idea of them.


Firstly, that wasnt "Insensitive". You dont suffer at all from the occupation. You werent around. And you also fail to menton how traumitized you are, from greece's little civil war.... which killed many civilians. Seems your only "Traumitized" when it suits your political agenda.

Most people have lost one or more of their families during that time to executions and torture from the Nazis as well as to starvation.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. The question is wether who was worse. Communist or National Socialists. And its very..very, historically clear, the Communists were worse. just because American soldiers didnt liberate the Gulags, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

We also have a number. The number of Communist citizens killed by there own Government. That number stands at 100 million, and were still counting.

[axi]

Same with the other side? Right?

We've had 3 military dictatorships, 3,5 years of German occupation and a civil war in my country. We have a more complete view of such things than you could ever have, archidaki...

Oh and I bet your traumatized!

What would you know about occupation syndromes, koloflore?

My father, being starved as a kid, refused to throw away stale food, even 50 years later. He had had an undiagnosed case of pneumonia during that time and this led half of his one lung to malfunction, which tormented him his whole life.

So don't you DARE mock my father's memory, paliolechriti!

There is no capitalist alliance with Fascism

So what the hell did Winston Churchill advocate before the war?

Fascism Nationalize's everything like communism

Oh, I see, like they did with the Krupp factories?

olny difference being the government doesnt put the money on social services. Rather, uses it to create command economy.

And after that statement (even though it's wrong) you believe it is better?!? Fascism creates a war economy, not just any type of command economy. Exactly the same economic principle that G.W.Bush is using right now!

[Imran Siddiqui]

well, now what is National Socialism for you , Boddington's ?

I'm not he, but National Socialism is another name for Fascism, first implimented by Mussolini.

[axi]

And you also fail to menton how traumitized you are, from greece's little civil war.... which killed many civilians. Seems your only "Traumitized" when it suits your political agenda.

DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE CIVIL WAR!

Who sent the troops of their own allies in concentration camps because they were politically unreliable?

Who has given full pardon to the narcks of the Nazis, to use them against the communists?

Who instructed their goons to open fire against peaceful demonstrators, in 3/12/1945?

Who broke the terms of the ceasefire in Athens, 12/1945?

Who broke the peace agreement in 1946 by persecuting the former guerillas?

Who has sent thousands upon thousands of people to prisons and concentration camps for their political beliefs?

British and American interests, that's who!

[Imran Siddiqui]

You'd rather be under the Stalinists for the Cold War?

[Al B. Sure!]

you know what i think... REVEALATION

i think America is naturally a moderately right wing nation. Even our leftist party, the democrats, is more right wing than many europeans. because of this, americans (and english too as they are fairly right wing as well) are more "comfortable" with fascism as it is inherently similiar to our right wing politics or at least is not as bizarre as extreme leftist communism.

Alternately, europeans being more leftist are more comfortable with social welfare ideas and the proletariant so they see communism as more appropriate.

Converting either to the other side is as difficult as converting one from socialism to capitalism or vice versa


thanks

[Al B. Sure!]

and by the way, Germany and Italy werent the only fascist nations. Spain, lithuania, Roumania, and Bulgaria (maybe even Finnland but perhaps not) could all be called fascist during ww2 not to mention the Dominican Republic, which the American gov't supported until Trujillo became despotic.


thanks

[faded glory]

Originally posted by axi


We've had 3 military dictatorships, 3,5 years of German occupation and a civil war in my country. We have a more complete view of such things than you could ever have, archidaki...

How many did you live through?

What would you know about occupation syndromes, koloflore?

My father, being starved as a kid, refused to throw away stale food, even 50 years later. He had had an undiagnosed case of pneumonia during that time and this led half of his one lung to malfunction, which tormented him his whole life.

Your point? I said nothing of the sort denying this. I mentioned how IRRELEVANT it was to the topic at hand.

So don't you DARE mock my father's memory, paliolechriti!

tsk.....tsk.....dont get delusional on me. I never mocked your father

Winston Churchill?

must be more Revionist Bullshit. He never allied with Fascism. With all do respect, What the f.. are you talking about?

Krupp factorys?

Not under the control of Krup. Under the control of the economic minister, Albert Speer.

And after that statement (even though it's wrong) you believe it is better?!? Fascism creates a war economy, not just any type of command economy. Exactly the same economic principle that G.W.Bush is using right now!

Righhhhht Keep deluding yourself old man.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Just out of curiosity, how many of the commies in this thread are either Leninist or Trotskyist?

All Trots are Lenninists, but not vice versa. Given that both Stalinist and Maoist varieties of communism have collapsed in the West (and the Council Communists never took off), it's a fair bet that we're all Trots. In fact, in this years' French Presidential elections, the Trotskyist, Arlette Laguilier (sp?) is predicted to get more votes than the Communist Party's Peter Hue. Yay for our side!




. . . and why do you all have the interesting discussions when I'm away?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Because we like to make you sad .

[chequita guevara]

Imran,
everytime I see your quote I think of the victims of Hurricane Andrew, who went without government help for almost a week. I don't think they were terrified when FEMA and the military finally showed. I think irate at their lateness would be more accurate. Small surprise that Florida voted for Clinton that election.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
All Trots are Lenninists, but not vice versa.

Then on what basis do Trotskyists and Leninists condemn the use of State terror in any form? Just the fact that a Communist State isn't doing it?

[DanS]

"They do not understand the difference between being hanged after the farce court, and being burned alive because you are Jews or Slav."

Happily, I don't fully comprehend the difference. Both are arbitrary reasons for the state to kill someone.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Imran,
everytime I see your quote I think of the victims of Hurricane Andrew, who went without government help for almost a week. I don't think they were terrified when FEMA and the military finally showed. I think irate at their lateness would be more accurate. Small surprise that Florida voted for Clinton that election.

That's... um.... nice.

[Shi Huangdi]

Hitlerism and Stalinism were both evil. Both targeted specific groups- Hitler went after slavs, jews, commies-- Stalin went after intellectuals, jews, capitalists, etc. But one key difference is that Stalin was alot more random in his killings then Hitler. If you were not one of Hitler's targeted groups, you could be reasonably safe. Stalin was more paranoid and went around randomly purging people, including loyal communists(Hitler also purged followers, but not to the same extent). Stalin went after various people randomly, so for this reason so long as you are not one of the targeted groups you are best off under Hitler.

[Ramo]

Since "National Socialism" implies the German variant of Fascism, and because "Communism" doesn't have an analagous implication for Stalinism, I'd pick the Commies any day.

[Serb]

Originally posted by axi
I agree with Echtelion. Shame on you! How can you possibly compare? But of course all answers that favor the Nazis come from people who never had a Nazi occupation in their country. :q And who of course have been brainwashed most with anticommunist propaganda! :q

Absolutely agreed. These guys do not know what are they talking about. They cannot even imagine the horrors of Fascism. And I found it very sad that such people are not rare. It is very, very dangerous sign.

500.000 people died in WW2 most of them civilian and most of them during the Nazi occupation.

I just want to make this thing more clear. You are talking about Greece, right? The full list of victums of fascism is mare larger.

We've had 3 military dictatorships, 3,5 years of German occupation and a civil war in my country. We have a more complete view of such things than you could ever have,..

The same I can say about myself. I remember my childhood in USSR, and I prefer to spent my whole life under such regime how SU was in its last years, then spent one year living under fascist's regime.

What would you know about occupation syndromes, koloflore?

I unerstand your rage. Shame on them! As I said earlier they do not know nothing about fascism, if they only knew a 1% of suffering and misery our countries went throught when was occupated by fascists, their opinion will be different.

And after that statement (even though it's wrong) you believe it is better?!? Fascism creates a war economy, not just any type of command economy. Exactly the same economic principle that G.W.Bush is using right now!

This is the most dangerous thing. If people do not remember lessons of history as those guys showed here, there is a chance that fascism may return. In Lithuania, Estonia, Litva today nazi veterans treats as heroes, while resistance fighters and Red army veterans treats as criminals. In those countries Russian population who is large part of the whole (about 30-40%) do not have civil rights, and treated only less beter then Jews were treated in Germany under nazi. Nationalsts rise again, those people forget abot lessons of the past, their vandals destroyed a monuments in honor of people who fought aginst fascism, they razed a graves of soviet soldiers. Thats why I'm respect the modern Germans, they treat memory of people who died in fight against fascism much, much better, they never done the same. Fascism is not German invention, this is sickness of whole humanity. And people who forget about this evil, might face it again- this is the most terrible thing. Shame on you, who forget about this evil.