Positioning to conquer a city

[-Jrabbit]

OK, I'm ataching the 1908 savegame. Here's my next problem --

The AI has started to build cities on my continent, in my city radius and/or close to my guradposts, and demanding I leave their territory. (See Oea and IIRC Caerphilly) I don't want to declare war (and as democracy may have a problem there) . I know that when they demand I leave "their" city limits the 2nd time, I'll have to do so, or "renounce this worthless treaty." At that oint, I'll be at war with everyone.

what 2do?

[rah]

The damage is already done. You shouldn't have let them build those cities in the first place. (I know it's obvious) But how do you stop them?

1. Keep caravans in waiting (or obsolete non-units)on good terrain in areas where you suspect it likely to occur. (this will cost you a caravan every now and then through sneak attack, but if you have cities cranking food caravans every turn, no great lose)

2. Shadow those settlers when they show. If you have an offensive unit next to a settler, it is not likely that it will create a city. Keep a spy with the unit and if a city is made, it should be cheap and then you can disband it.

If all this fails (because of demo), the city must be trashed as quickly as possible. (OR YOU learn to live with it and quit whinning about it) If you have SOL, just revolt and kill it. Take the opportunity while you're not in Democ to demand some tribute. If you have the UN, you can make peace again. And if it's that late in the game where they all hate you, you're going to be at war with almost everyone anyway, so don't worry about it.



OR THE DEAL WITH IT APPROACH>
Go claim the overlap square for your city to use with an offensive unit. Once you've claimed it. Hold it with diplos, settlers or caravans to keep him from claiming it back. Or if you have a lot of resources, just alternate a couple of bombers parking there every other turn.

Ok, not all of this is foolproof, but it should hopefully stimulate some ideas.

RAH

[-Jrabbit]

yeah.

I saw them dropping units on my continents, but didn't see any settlers. The offensive units they were dropping were hanging just outside my city radii ("we have no troops in your territory"). I knew something would happen, but didn't know what or when. Suddenly, cities with troops.

Both cities were dropped in terrible spots and have virtually no growth potential (again, don't know how much the AI will cheat in that regard, and presumably they can always buy units/improvements). Sounds like I'll have to move to war footing, declare fundy or commie (next oedo not until 1911 - blast!), and redeploy units to occupy other obvious target areas.

Oh well, I knew it was an uneasy peace that couldn't last. I just don't have the experience to know when/how the AI will react.

AC Update.

I'm now (I think) many techs away from Apollo (Auto - MassProd - Computers and Flight (next) - Radio - AdvFlight - Rocketry

Plus I need AtomicTheory - NukeFission - NukePowr - Laser - (Fusion) - Supercond to get to the Module.

It's 1908. Starting to look difficult...


Thanx rah.

[Campo]

I wouldn't tolerate those cities -- not only are they a recurrent annoyance, but once you get space flight they'll be harassing you with attackers and spies, which will be very hard to control being so close to your cities.

I haven't seen the save game so I'm not sure how big they are, but you should be able to bribe the cities. If they're still small (or you've built up your treasury) you can bribe them "x2" which prevents an incident. Bribery (regular or x2) would be my first choice.

My second choice would be conquest. Build and position units in preparation for when you can change governments, then conquer quickly. You can either use or disband the cities.

As rah said, after that you should position units where you think they arrived. I'd use spies because they're mobile, don't require support or cause unhappiness, and can bribe AI settlers. While it's true that they won't found a city while you're trailing them, it gets really tedious following them around everywhere.

[-Jrabbit]

THE FORCES OF DEMOCRACY ARE IMMUNE FROM BRIBERY.



But I didn't know about the 2x = no incident trick.
Thx.

[Campo]

Sorry, I knew you were in Democracy but I didn't realize the AI was. In that case you have two choices (aside from tolerating the foreign cities): wait for them to change governments, or attack and conquer. If you have the force to do it quickly then I would conquer. But use spies to investigate the cities first and make sure you can conquer them quickly. You don't want a prolonged war with the AI based on your continent.

How many AI cities are there, and how big are they?

[Campo]

Although this won't help with the existing cities on your continent, and it's somewhat contrary to your desired isolationist approach, there's another thing you might be able do to reduce their recurrence.

The AI will send settlers, attackers, and spies to your continent primarily by ship. (A small number may cross the pole but probably not enough to do much damage.) They can only launch ships from their coastal cities. If they don't have too many coastal cities you could use spies to poison their water supply and reduce their population, thus reducing the number of ships they can support. You'd have to send escorted transports loaded with spies, and of course you'd be at war during the process.

If it were earlier in the game I'd suggest conquering and disbanding their coastal cities, but I think it's too late for that. Keep it in mind for future games though -- if the enemy has few or no coastal cities then you completely control the seas and all oceanic passage.

[-Jrabbit]

OK, so I'm about to finish 1921 and it hasn't gone too badly. Savegame is attached.

My biggest question is this -- Should I bother with Cure for Cancer? I've been ignoring it while working on things like coastal defenses, rooting out enemy evil on my shores, etc. But now the Persians are researching toward it, so I need to make a decision.

Getting rid of the cities was fun. Needed to get them to declare war (not too tough) and required the good fortune of a couple rounds of Senate approval to finish the job, but I got it done and stayed in Democracy the whole time.

So, how about Cure 4 Cancer? My inclination is to go for it. I've got about 5 caravans stashed so it wouldn't take long. Certainly the extra happiness couldn't hurt, I like the idea of letting the Persians waste a lot of shields on it, then taking it away. (so they can't use it to buy more troops).

The isolationist plan is coming together. With flight, I'm now building coastal air patrols to warn of incoming ships, and can strafe their freights before they get t me. That should buy me some time.

Mass Production is next. Still at 3 years between techs.

Outside wisdom always welcome.

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
The isolationist plan is coming together. With flight, I'm now building coastal air patrols to warn of incoming ships, and can strafe their freights before they get t me.

Obviously, I meant transports, not freights.
Other game notes:

--Oil is now coming into demand, so trade routes are being completed where possible.

--My 3 opponents now comprise 2 republics and 1 Fundie (Persian).

--Celts have 12 cities, Zulus have 7, and Persians have 18. I have 49.

--The RR network is nearly complete. Have spies in most cities. Have spies patrolling unpopulated areas to prevent surprise attacks.

--I'm have Adv Flight, studying Mass Production. Still waiting for the Atomic Theory - Nuclear Fission sequence to appear. In going for an AC win, is there anything I'm forgetting here?

Another Question: My SSC (Leptis Magna) is growing nicely and will go into WLTPD as soon as I eliminate its pollution (so there's a positive food situation). I've never had a city bigger that about 14 before. What do I do when I run out of land to work?

And is there a max city size?

Again with the thanx...

[DaveV]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Another Question: My SSC (Leptis Magna) is growing nicely and will go into WLTPD as soon as I eliminate its pollution (so there's a positive food situation). I've never had a city bigger that about 14 before. What do I do when I run out of land to work?

Once your city grows beyond size 20 (or less if you have overlapped cities), new citizens are entertainers. It's more productive to change them to taxmen or scientists if you can still stay happy. Specialists produce 3 coins or beakers, but those are multiplied by city improvements. So a scientist in your SSC can produce 18 beakers. Note that any specialists after the first 16 cannot be changed from entertainers, so their only benefit is increasing your score. This means the maximum practical city size is 36.

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
And is there a max city size?

127. You need to play some arcane games with food caravans to reach that size, which Rah or Ming could explain to you.

[Ming]

Originally posted by DaveV
127. You need to play some arcane games with food caravans to reach that size, which Rah or Ming could explain to you.

Unless you are making a boring record run... it isn't worth knowing

[rah]

Are they vet spys?

As long as your not going for a record, it's worth it to drop into communism for a couple a turns and crank out a few hundred vet spys. Much better for protecting the homeland against AI espionage tricks. You can save the old non-vet spys in the cities to eventually disband for parts. Or you can just spread them around in unoccupied areas and put the to sleep so you don't have to waste time with them. They are very good sentries. And you never know when a horde of spys will come in handy.

Rich

[-Jrabbit]

HUNDREDS??

Remember, this is an AC run and I'm trying to play defense to get there.

My current spy force is a mixed bag of vets and non- (have been building barracks to upgrade my overall force to vets per advice received here / thx SG). I have one spy in just about every city and several spares on patrol. I'm also building vet defensive units (marines and alpine troops) to upgrade my old riflemen as I go. Port cities are getting subs to help fight off the cruisers etc. Just about every port city now has coastal fortress and city walls.

I was (am) afraid to produce too many military types due to being in democracy and then creating unhappiness. (I want to keep my tech acquisition no worse than every 3 turns.) I have noticed that cities with 4 or 5 military still seem relatively OK on happiness, which was not true 100 years or so ago. Does this change over time, or did I just finally get enough temples and marketplaces?

I'm hoping to avoid going commie unless I absolutely have to, and I would prefer to keep my cash for the SS build (at which time I will likely go fundy).. Right now, my isolation allows me to limit their attack points, which should improve as I get more Fighters available to do shore patrol.

I am, however, considering making some poison runs to nearby enemy port cities (per Campo) while I'm still war with everyone. Probably not yet, as cruisers and marines are their best units, and no enemy is yet researching either flight or battleships.

Any thoughts on Cure For Cancer? Worthwhile Y/N? I've never built it before...

Thanx again rah...

[Thoth]

I'd say yes to CfCancer. An extra happy person in every city will do wonders for your growth though WLTK, and will let you run at a lower luxury rate if you're not aiming for WLTK.

Your non-vet spies can be veteranized by sabotaging enemy units. You'll loose about half of them, but the increase in effectiveness is well worth it. Nor will this cause an international incident to topple your Demo.

[-Jrabbit]

Most excellent thought re "veteranizing" Thoth!
This may seem really basic to some, but it's news to me.

My inclination is to hold off on C4C until the Persians start building it. That way, it drains their shields away from war production for awhile. Not sure if that outweighs the benefits of getting happier today...

Your thoughts re extra growth for that one extra happy worker are food for thought. I'll consider...

I love this forum!

[Scouse Gits]

-Jrabbit your 1895 save came double zipped!! You really upset the Old Admiral when he couldn't get the damn thing to load!!

---

Immediate comment on this (1895) game is that you are busy researching techs that the three toed sloth already possesses - what are spies for!? - will look at 1921 now and come back
____________
The SGs in tandem - with a nice Medoc

[Scouse Gits]

Can we say - for a first Deity game this is a really nice job - well done.

A few suggestions:

Trade - don't stop trading when you have the three trade routes - if a new commodity appears it will get you both cash and beakers - now that you have the start of a decent Rail network even close cities can be rewarding - we guess that a desired commodity from Choco to Leptis will get about 100 on establishment and 10 a turn thereafter for the route (assuming the Rail connection is solid - we think you will have to Rail the mountain.)

Specials - your cities are not best positioned to take advantage of the Specials - and many of the specials have not been best exploited - for example there is a Wheat in the Choco city radius that should have been mined to Silk ages ago - if Theveste had been founded two squares to the NE it would have enjoyed a Whale a (hidden) Silk, and two Coals not to mention the river complex and been a better bet for a SSC than Leptis which has no Trade Specials

Infrastructure - you should not have unconnected cities at this date ...

Cuba - Taras is too close - it should be bought (about 800?) and a tech (Refrigeration) stolen - the Persians are busy founding their Cubas - blow them away or buy the Engineers - those offshore islands are YOURS

Finally - your army is too large (yes it can be!) think of all the caravans that weren't

[sg1] As a fellow Cart - whatever happened to Utica??

______________________
The SGs in concert - about to open bottle 3

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

OK. I'm nowhere near as good as Ming, Rah or the SGs... but here's my thoughts.

The Gits are right - you can have too many units. For the number of cities you have vs. the number the AI has, probably 1 good defensive unit in each city is enough. Coastal cities that are being bombarded a lot may need more. But if your civ is connected by rail, you can rush armor or mech inf. or spies or howitzers to wherever trouble crops up. With your air forces you should be able to see them coming. And use spies to buy your opponents rather than necessarily killing them... buy one unit with the spy, and use it to attack the other AI units. The AI is too dumb to do the logical thing, which is to send three transports over loaded with troops and spies and covered by battleships. It attacks piecemeal, so you don't need to worry about a 20-unit attack force popping up on the horizon, unless you have a very, very big AI Civ facing you.

Also. Spies have no maintenance cost and don't cause unhappiness. Fighters and stealth fighters don't cause unhappiness, but bombers and missiles ALWAYS cause unhappiness, even in a home city. So if happiness is an issue, you may want to build more fighters and spies and fewer ships, bombers and missiles. If shields are an issue, build spies.

You'll gradually get a feel for how much defense is needed... but 2-3 ground units per city is usually excessive, I find.

Specials. You might already know this, but any square with a special resource on it (wheat, coal, oil, fish, whales, spice etc) is herein called a 'special'. If you position a city in the right square when you found the city, you can take advantage of a maximum of 4 specials. This is an advantage (especially in the early going), because a city working a special will get more trade/production/food than otherwise. Thus, if you have a city working 4 specials, it will be very valuable, more likely than not. And if you reforest or transform Grassland squares that 'fit' the special pattern, a special may appear on the new terrain, since Grassland doesn't have specials. That's what a 'hidden special' is. Am I making sense?

Anyway, making a city with 2 or 3 trade specials and a lot of grass, plains or rivers into a SSC makes good sense because it will produce an unusual amount of arrows... and when you add multipliers like the science improvements and wonders, colossus and superhighways, the science output can get downright scary. Like 1 advance/turn!

Oh, also, barracks don't produce vet spies, IIRC - only communism or a successful mission can do that.

Good luck.

STYOM

[-Jrabbit]

This is awesome info, gang. I'll respond to these before diving back in.

Scouse Gits -- This is NOT my first Deity game. But it may be my first win at Deity. I appreciate the compliment tho -- big time.

Re spies -- Just because I love spies. So much power for so little, with no support or happiness issues.

Never got a Utica -- don't know why.

My few unconnected cities are new ones. they'll be hooked up soon.

The reference to Cuba and Taras are a mystery. Apparently there's some activity I failed to detect. I've been concentrating on my southern islands. I must admit I don't want to start too many weak, new cities on islands -- susceptible to attack, and will lose key tech to enemy civs. 'll check out Taras though. Mine is mine!

I'll start downsizing my armies in the internal cities. Disband and contribute toward current projects as appropriate.

STYOM -- Nice to meet you.

Great tip on fighters as happiness-friedly. that is HUGE and will allow me to significantly reduce the standing militia.

I'm not hip to the hidden specials thing. Saw a referece to it in the GL but basically chose not to confuse myself with it. But it sounds like I just need to look for grassland squares that fit the pattern. (Does that include dotted grass squares?) And to "find" the special, you transform the grassland and get the special.

I can't really defend my city locations. Theveste was founded IIRC at a chokepoint against the Sioux civ. Leptis Magna bevcame my SSC cuz it was the best choice available when I got Colossus. I must admit a tendency to drop a city first, before the whole area is explored.

Regrets, I've had a few...

OK, I'm off to incorporate this killer new knowledge as appropriate. Kinda bugs me that I didn't work some of this out for myself, but can't let pride get in the way of progress.


Thx again ppl...

[-Jrabbit]

Well, my wife had a killer migraine so I couldn't leave the house Friday for the usual hang with Ming and rah. Which means I got to play a bit. Then a little more while watching Illinois and SIU kick tail on Sunday.Per Scouse Gits suggestion, I took Taras and built a coastal fortress there. Got C4C (some minor celebrations) and SETI (down to every other turn for new techs). Continuing to blast transports out of the water before they reach me.

I'm gonna win at Deity!

It's 1950 and I'm building the SS. Have fusion power. I can build all but a few components this year. (To ensure victory, I'm going for the 33-8-8-1-1-1 version found in the GL. This is fastest, right?) I should be able to launch in one more turn -- cranked the taxes to 80 percent with luxuries at 20 to maintain happiness. That should give me the revenue to finish everything. (Standing army already significantly reduced per SG and STYOM suggestions.)

The closest competition I have (Persians) now have Flight and Automobile (Battleships). A couple battleships have appeared on my recon runs, though no evidence of Fighters yet. Other civs should have these techs any minute now.

I've built a couple bombers to help fend off the battleships and am not doing any SS build in the border cities, so I should be OK for the launch. But then what?

QUESTION: It's OEDO time. Do I drop into Commie or Fundie in preparation for the (presumably) coming AI onslaught when I launch, or do I stay Democratic and try to pump my happiness through pollution cleanup, banks/colisseums/etc? (Will build Manhattan, the last wonder, in any case.) If I go fundie, I can probably build a decent invasion force and get more cities.

In other words, I know I'm gonna win. Now I want to get a little greedy and pump my score a bit. What's the better way?

(Tonight is Buffy The VS on the tube. My girls will watch that. I'll try to finish his!) Any final words of wisdom gratefully accepted. Wish me luck..

[Scouse Gits]

Great Game - Well done!

Just a quick note on easily spotted hidden specials -- every hut has a special either two squares NE or two squares SW - often the terrain or other nearby specials rules one of these out and you have a dead cert hidden -- make a note and capitalise later.

If only they were all so easy to spot...

[rah]

How to finish.

If you're concerned about score.
POPULATION AND HAPPINESS. Go into democ and celebrate wherever you can. Boost Luxuries and convert specialist to entertainers before the SS lands to maximize the number of happy people. You can score more points with pop and happy than with future techs.

If you're worried about massive assualt.
Go into fundy and just build vet mech infantry and planes for early interdiction.

Make sure you patrol to keep spies out. They can steal all the required techs and launch a space ship pretty damn fast.

Unless you have SDIs in most of your cities. it isn't worth the extra points to build the PROJECT. Pollution counts against you and any exchange will cause a sufficient amount of polution that you many not have time to clean up.

RAH
Good luck on the finish. Nothing stupid. Many a game has been lost on the last few turns due to boredom.

[Campo]

I'm going for the 33-8-8-1-1-1 version found in the GL. This is fastest, right?)

I think this is right. I thought I recalled that it was 34 structurals but I checked the GL and it says 33.

Rah's advice is good. As incompetent as the AI is in many areas, it's good at stealing techs and building a ship fast during the end game. Personally, for my first Diety victory run, I'd probably go Fundy so I could cover the ocean with patrols. But if you're realistically confident and want to build the score then Democracy is the route.

How close is the AI to nukes? It gets messy fast when they start launching them.

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by rah
it isn't worth the extra points to build the PROJECT. Pollution counts against you and any exchange will cause a sufficient amount of polution that you many not have time to clean up.

I figured I would time the completion of Manhattan Project for the year before I landed. Any reason that's not safe?

Good luck on the finish. Nothing stupid. Many a game has been lost on the last few turns due to boredom.

I'm pinning my hopes on the Fastest Spaceship Theory to avoid doing anything too stupid. Planning to stay in Democracy and pump happiness. With no tech needs, I can pump taxes if I need to buy ammo. Frankly, I don't think they have the horses to mount a killer attack -- no bombers, no AEGIS, no howies, no paratroopers. And no, Campo -- no nukes. No SS component techs either. Crossing my fingers and hoping I'm right.

Hope that's solidly in the Nothing Stupid category...


Thx for the good wishes. Will let you know.

[rah]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I figured I would time the completion of Manhattan Project for the year before I landed. Any reason that's not safe?

You never know. The AI has a tendency to be able to build and fire something the turn it is available to them. I'd hate to see all the missles fly during the AI's turn as your ship is preping to land.

RAH
The last SP game I let the AI get the prereqs for Cruise missles, The turn they got the tech they launched about 30 of them. Always amazes me since I can't do that.

[-Jrabbit]

LAUNCHED SPACESHIP IN 1954.

Used 33-8/8-1/1/1 config, landing in 1959. I still have to play out the intervening years, but the AI would have to wipe out my civ in order to beat me now, and they don't have the technology to do that. So far, no need to drop out of Democracy. The people are celbrating like mad. Glad I didn't panic and switch!

All I have to do now is to play out the string for 5 turns and I'll have MY FIRST DIETY WIN!


Many thanks to Campo (for good advice and a notable lack of complaints about my threadjacking), plus Smash, geofelt, RAH, Scouse Gits, STYOM, Thoth, and probably a couple more I'm forgetting at the moment.

I like to think I'd have managed this myself, but credit where due for helping me keep the boat steady as I went through some uncharted waters.

THANX!!

...and here's the savegame.

[Campo]

Congratulations! Sounds like you've got it made.

Did you run out of time last night, or are you delaying the end so you can savor the victory?

The first win is the hardest. It's obvious that you've picked up some key insights. There are so many fine and non-intuitive points in the game that it's near impossible for anyone to figure them all out on their own. I'll bet all of us here learned a lot from other people.

Is your wife ready to kill you yet, or will you be able to play a conquest game next?

[-Jrabbit]

Well, truth be told I actually work for a living. It was nigh onto midnight and my alarm is set for 0500. So I actually stopped voluntarily once I launched and saved.

The AI was surprisingly docile as I approached launch conditions. A couple battleship attacks, a couple transports I had to take out, some posturing with cruisers here and there. One fairly determined attack on Taras, netting them SS Structural via diplo (after I agreed to a peace treaty). That was about it. I believe the full ownership of the megacontinent, with coastal cities having fortresses and guarded by a fleet of subs and fighter planes, was a situation the AI simply couldn't respond to.

Now that I've launched, I'm expecting a more determined assault. But rather than build for it, I'm expending most of my efforts on getting Happy. Building banks and courthouses, adding a few missing trade routes.

One thing that confuses me is that I never got much Senate interference. They forced peace a couple times, but as I got to the late game, I got Senate support for my "peacekeeping" a couple times and then -- nothing. I remember the AI asking for peace a couple times, then immediately violating the treaty. Is that when the Senate stopped worrying about being at war with everyone?

In fact, even the construction of late-game bombers (once battleships appeared) did not seem to cause happiness problems, even when I moved them without rehoming. Never raised luxuries over 20 percent (until now). Comments?

My wife is not **quite** ready to kil me. Most Civ time comes out of sleep, not family time, so she figures it's my loss. She does have trouble understanding how it can take 10 minutes to get to a screen where I'm allowed to save and quit...

As for the endgame, that will have to wait awhile. I leave Friday AM for a bit of vacation, returning at end of month. Beaches, golf courses, restaurants.

Today and Thursday will be a time of shockingly Real Life, both at work and home, in preparation. I'll probably get to check in here while on the road on occasion (love those laptops!), but that'll be about it.

So long, and thanks for all the fish...

[Campo]

The AI was surprisingly docile as I approached launch conditions.

That's very unusual, in my experience. I've pretty much given up on the isolationist spaceship approach -- I get fed up with constant AI attacks, even in the face of overwhelming force. I usually go for pure conquest, though occasionally I decimate the AI along the way to AC. I wonder why they didn't bother you as much.

As for senate interference, I think as long as the AI is attacking you and not requesting peace, the senate will leave you alone. You're allowed to defend yourself.

the construction of late-game bombers (once battleships appeared) did not seem to cause happiness problems, even when I moved them without rehoming.

It's not necessary to re-home the bombers. Military units under Democracy do not cause unhappiness if they're in a city of yours -- any city, not just their home city. (Same applies to fortresses within 3 squares of any of your cities.)

As for the endgame, that will have to wait awhile. I leave Friday AM for a bit of vacation

That means the rest of us will be able to finish your victory before you can. That will count as a win for us, not for you!

thanks for all the fish

You're welcome. We didn't give you fish though, we gave a few pointers on how to hold the rod and reel.

[Scouse Gits]

Military units under Democracy do not cause unhappiness if they're in a city of yours -- any city, not just their home city. (Same applies to fortresses within 3 squares of any of your cities.)

Exception - bombers & nukes - both give double unhappies even if in a city -- but by this stage you are no longer concerned with holding celebration so the lack of a light blue doesn't hurt...