Still no sign of unique civilizations

[N_A]

Yes, I did read that there will be unique civ bonuses in Civ 3, but the unfortunate part is that we have not yet heard if Civ 3 will have any unique units for a certain civilization, and unique skins for all other general units.

One thing that bothers me in Civilization is that it is first off, way too Eurocentric and doesn't acknowledge the diversity and unique characteristics of each civilization, or at least in practical terms, culture groups.

I don't know about you, but I find it really messed up when in Ancient China, I am using riflemen dressed in British Redcoats wearing a tricorn hat in the the middle ages, when in reality, the rifle men in China wore their "Chinese" uniform with the straw, conical hats. I also find it ridiculous to be using knights in China, when mounted soldiers were vastly different.

I realize this can cause a problem for non gunpoweder civilizations as the Aztecs for example, but say we looked into the general American Indians culture group, I believe a Great Plains Indian with guns would suffice. Other than that, I believe different skins can be used to represent cultures as unique.

Not to mention each culture should have a few unique units as well. For example, tropical nations would have elephant units where as other nations did not. Or the Japanese have exclusive use of samurais, and Europeans exclusive use of Knights.

Of course, there would need to be balanced of play, but overall, it would make a more enjoyable game.

Thoughts ?

[- Groucho -]

I concur. Just like SMAC gives you city skins for each faction, CIVIII should give us similar skin choices. Now, we can't get too specific, because we're dealing with alternate history here. But how about the following for skins for buildings and units:

A. European
B. Pan-Arabian (I'm thinking Morrocco to Afghanistan)
C. Sub-Saharan Africa
D. Eurasian (some amalgam of Slavic / Russian / Balkans (you've got to get onion domes in there )
E. North Asian (some amalgam of China/Japan/Korea)
F. South Asian (some amalgam of India / Thailand / Indonesia)
G. Native American (again, some amalgam of North and South American civs)

As cities and units get more modern, they will start to look more alike, so there is no need to go too crazy. Just scatter through the tech tree alternate skins for some units and some buildings based upon the civ skin the player chooses. So my cathedral may look like Angkor Wat and yours looks like Chartres. Same effect, just more atmosphere.

[Windborne]

I like this, though I'd also suggest and option for "pick skin", this may or may not be feasable depending on memory, but why shouldn't I have the option of creating my own unique skinset for my people as time goes on? Maybe I want aztec looking warriors, oriental looking phalanxes, and medieval knights, along with cities that look like castles, and settlers that look like conastoga wagons?

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by N_A on 01-08-2001 11:42 PM For example, tropical nations would have elephant units where as other nations did not

And if these nations were expanding north, in example to Scandanavia or Greenland, would they still use these elephants(I think they would die in the cold weather!)

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[Ferdi]

No, of course, they will use mammoths!

[Henrik]

What if the different units recieved lowered stats when not fighting in thier natural enviroment, this way the elephants would still be able to enter northern regions whit snow and such, but they would fight whit considerable disadvantages, this could make for some very realistic game play. Hannibal did bring elephants from Carthage over the alps but most of them died so when he reached Rome they wasn't much of a factor.

[Grumbold]

I would love it if Civ3 came with many options of unit/building skins to fit your civ name or your mood but I can't see more than a dribble of options as being a practical use of Firaxis time. I do pray though that they provide hooks to allow the fan community to create new skins and load them into the game. The animated unit graphics make this more difficult for the amateur but it should not be rejected purely on that basis.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You know, I think they'll have a somewhat similar thing, but on a smaller basis.

They've already shown 2 tanks (Abrams and Panzer) and 2 fighters (F-15 and Mig-29). They might be different skins for different types of civs.

[Sirotnikov]

I'm supporting echinda as his idea is very similar to something I have proposed a month ago .

Remember this is all a generality. I don't exactly see aztecs or zulu flying helis or fighter jets. So? It's a generalization.

Civilization is about rewriting history, not replaying it exactly as it was.

[Leonidas]

I like the skins/workshop idea very much. You have a basic tank unit but new and different "skins" would become available to it as research and technology progresses (with appropriate era-specific look and stats). The player would be notified that a new "production model" of this tank has been developed. It would then be up to the player to get this new tank (by adding the appropriate skin and which would cost more) or to stick with the older variety.

This could be done for every weapons system, thus providing "unlimited" weapons variations, which is so clearly evident around the world today.

With an excellent editor, users could then create many new and different weapons' skins for a variety of units and scenarios.

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[- Groucho -]

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov on 01-09-2001 02:03 PM Remember this is all a generality. I don't exactly see aztecs or zulu flying helis or fighter jets. So? It's a generalization.

I agree. By the point in civ that jets and helis are being produced, they don't have to look all that different between civilizations (unlike the differences between a mounted Samurai and a Teutonic Knight, for instance). I would'nt be upset if an Aztec air-to-air fighter jet looked pretty much like the Zulu's equivalent. Why not. The Aztecs never achieved flight anyway, so what does it matter whether the game makes their jets look like Migs or F-15s?

[The Kaiser]

I can't see the units being Civ specific, it just doesn't make sense. The only thing they might be(but probably won't be) is that they could be Goverment specific. The Mig might only be built by Communist's and the Panzer by Facist's.

[Grrr]

I had this same idea about 3 weeks ago, and my thread has now disappeared of the pages front. I still like the idea

quote: Originally posted by Echinda on 01-09-2001 01:22 AM I concur. Just like SMAC gives you city skins for each faction, CIVIII should give us similar skin choices. Now, we can't get too specific, because we're dealing with alternate history here. But how about the following for skins for buildings and units: A. European B. Pan-Arabian (I'm thinking Morrocco to Afghanistan) C. Sub-Saharan Africa D. Eurasian (some amalgam of Slavic / Russian / Balkans (you've got to get onion domes in there ) E. North Asian (some amalgam of China/Japan/Korea) F. South Asian (some amalgam of India / Thailand / Indonesia) G. Native American (again, some amalgam of North and South American civs) As cities and units get more modern, they will start to look more alike, so there is no need to go too crazy. Just scatter through the tech tree alternate skins for some units and some buildings based upon the civ skin the player chooses. So my cathedral may look like Angkor Wat and yours looks like Chartres. Same effect, just more atmosphere.

[- Groucho -]

quote: Originally posted by The Kaiser on 01-09-2001 07:02 PM I can't see the units being Civ specific, it just doesn't make sense. The only thing they might be(but probably won't be) is that they could be Goverment specific. The Mig might only be built by Communist's and the Panzer by Facist's.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but if you're objecting to some civs having access to units with capabilities no one else has, for the most part I agree. Outside of specific scenarios, the game should give everyone a level playing field for unit abilities. I'm just talking about what the units look like. North Asian settlers would look different from European settlers, but functionally they should be identical.

[Zeevico]

A good idea is to implement a buying and selling market for units that aren't available to you (or in general). That way, you could have a whole market where one civ offers 5 howies at 200 gold each in 5 turns and the civ could either deliver all five at one turn or space it out as long as it's in one turn, And another civ would offer the same unit in a different system depending on what they have, and their treasury (how much they want) and other factors like tribute and allies would offer reduced prices.

[Zeevico]

A good idea is to implement a buying and selling market for units that aren't available to you (or in general). That way, you could have a whole market where one civ offers 5 howies at 200 gold each in 5 turns and the civ could either deliver all five at one turn or space it out as long as it's in one turn, And another civ would offer the same unit in a different system depending on what they have, and their treasury (how much they want) and other factors like tribute and allies would offer reduced prices.

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by Zeevico on 01-09-2001 10:46 PM A good idea is to implement a buying and selling market for units that aren't available to you (or in general). That way, you could have a whole market where one civ offers 5 howies at 200 gold each in 5 turns and the civ could either deliver all five at one turn or space it out as long as it's in one turn, And another civ would offer the same unit in a different system depending on what they have, and their treasury (how much they want) and other factors like tribute and allies would offer reduced prices.

What?????

And how does this relate to unique civs?

[Crusader16]

Hi, the objetives in Civilization are too rewrite and experience the history, so i disagree with many of the message in this forum. If we change the units, like only samurais in japan, and only riflemen in europe, we have to think that also we have to change the city improvements, and wonders. (like building the statue of libery in China). So that isn´t good.

I have one choice, we can change the skins and the clothes of the units. Maybe could be Panzer tanks, with an African Shield, or F-15 with a Japanese Mark. Or a Northern Elephant, like Mammoths. Also, that every Civilization have the appropiate skin, the Chinese have to look like Orientals and English look like European. To make a difference between the civilizations.

Thanks!

[N_A]

I think general units with different skins is the general approach for most civ units. However, adding just a few unique cultural units doesn't preclude rewriting history, so I think this idea should go through. But, above, it seems like a good solution might have been introduced, and it also increases the need for careful planning when it comes negotiating. Also adds a twist to Firaxis's plans to expand the warfare part of Civ 3.

Actually, the market idea is a really good addition to the unique civ idea because it allows the player to have access to all the units, even if they are culturally unique, and that makes sense in overall history. It also encourages players to think treaties over. A certain nation may provide an expertise at say calvary warfare, and you may need to depend on them to offer extra help in calvary since your calvary sucks. Or, you would have to rethink the offer of a treaty since your units are disadvataged in calvary while a nation asks you fight a nation which has powerful calvary.

Even if you rewrote history, it still doesn't mean everyone has everything. Each nation would have its own developments, preferences, and specializations.