Thread Tools
Old March 11, 2002, 02:23   #61
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Firstly, yah, makes no difference. Columbus and then Vespizuchi were more important in that they opened up the Americans to colonization.

Secondly... the biggest ships in Zheng He's fleet were 4 times the size of Columbus' Santa Maria. To cross the Cape of Good Hope, wouldn't have worked well for ships that freaking large. They wouldn't be able to manuver.

Those ships though were probably more impressive that European ships one hundred years later (though the Arab Dows were very impressive in that time as well).
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 02:23   #62
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Chinese? yeah right! It has already been proven that the Vikings got there first (after the native Americans), and there is some evidence that the Phoenicians got there millenia before them even.

This is what cheese's me off about history. When they know Lief Ericson came here first, and not Columbus. They dont accept it, because it challenges current thought.


Well its true..Viking were here before columbus. 400 years before him. And before that? An Indian Civilization had to have came here bye ship. Some kind of civilization that populated all those islands in the pacific .. They just dont pop up out of the ground.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 03:01   #63
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
Quote:
They just dont pop up out of the ground
Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 03:43   #64
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Regarding the Piri Reis map, and Antarctica, I've seen two likely explanations:

1. The Antarctica-like piece of land was simply a convention for terra incongnito (like "here lies dragons.")

2. The mapmaker screwed up, but didn't want to waste his expensive parchment, so when he ran out of room Southward, he translated the rest of the map by pi/2 radians.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 04:05   #65
ravagon
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
King
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.
That was an ice bridge though right? Even today the Bering straits are supposed to be almost passable at times. Back during the end of the ice age (~30k yrs ago IIRC) it should have been much more so. That was never the case with a large number of the South Pacific islands considering their locations and the great distances involved.
ravagon is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 04:15   #66
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Quote:
Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.
There probably were Polynesian cultures who island-hopped to the Americas.

Quote:
I'd say this map was more likely a copy of the first maps of the Americas made by the Spanish.
Actually, I'd bet that it's a copy of a Portuguese map, since it maps the coast of Brazil so well, much of which the Portuguese probably knew for decades before Colombus' expedition, while the Carribean is relatively badly mapped.

But I'm sure it'd be a hell of a story how Christian Iberian maps got in the hands of a Turkish admiral...
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 04:30   #67
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
There probably were Polynesian cultures who island-hopped to the Americas
Possibly (even probably, maybe).

The original colonising populatin certainly didn't come that way, though, and whatever Polynesians got blown ashore didn't have much of an effect on the makeup of the American populations.
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 04:32   #68
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
Quote:
Originally posted by ravagon


That was an ice bridge though right?
It might well have been glaciated, but even the supporting land was probably above sea level. Sea levels during that period were 600-1000 metres lower than today.
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 04:43   #69
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Quote:
The original colonising populatin certainly didn't come that way, though, and whatever Polynesians got blown ashore didn't have much of an effect on the makeup of the American populations.
Of course.

Quote:
Possibly (even probably, maybe).
Consider the existence of coconut palms, sweet potatoes, and a multitude of other crops indigenous to South, South East Asia and various Pacific Islands, as well as South America.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 11:34   #70
Fiera
Emperor
 
Fiera's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Posts: 4,061
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramo

Actually, I'd bet that it's a copy of a Portuguese map, since it maps the coast of Brazil so well, much of which the Portuguese probably knew for decades before Colombus' expedition, while the Carribean is relatively badly mapped.
No need to talk about decades before Columbus. The Portuguese had been exploring the coast of Brazil since 1500, 13 years before the Piri Reis map.

Quote:
But I'm sure it'd be a hell of a story how Christian Iberian maps got in the hands of a Turkish admiral...
Yes, that puzzles me as well, but as a matter of a fact Turkish diplomatic missions in western Europe were quite frequent.

Spain and France signed a treaty (in 1500, Treaty of Granada) to attack the Kingdom of Naples, allegedly because the King of Naples was allied with the Turks. After the Spanish conquest of Naples, the Spanish Viceroy Gonzalo (Gonsalvo) de Córdoba received a Turkish embassy (1504), where rich presents were offered by both nations. I'm sure a map of the New World would be a highly valuable exchange good.
Fiera is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 12:12   #71
Chris 62
Spanish CiversCivilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Chris 62's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the memmories of the past
Posts: 4,487
Here is a site that talks about the map and how authentic it maybe:

http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/eng...s/piri_r~1.htm

They give an alternate explanation as to where the map was found, but I still remember the other, maybe that was wrong, one never knows.
__________________
I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG
Chris 62 is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 12:13   #72
Zealot
King
 
Zealot's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,267
Re: World spins on claim China discovered America
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Menzies says Chinese maps passed to the West through the Portuguese, by way of an Italian traveller, Nicolo da Conti, who went on some of their voyages. Don Pedro, son of Portugal's King Joao I kept the resulting map of the world as a state secret.
Hey, this could explain why the portuguese demanded in the Tordesilles treaty more 100 miles to the west, which was later known that Brazil was included inside those extra 100 miles. This is one of the biggest portuguese history's mistery!

Still, this rises another important question. Why didn't the portuguese crown support Columbus voyage, then? He went to the portuguese crown asking fo support before going to the spanish crown!
__________________
"BANANA POWAAAAH!!! (exclamation Zopperoni style)" - Mercator, in the OT 'What fruit are you?' thread
Join the Civ2 Democratic Game! We have a banana option in every poll just for you to vote for!
Many thanks to Zealot for wasting his time on the jobs section at Gamasutra - MarkG in the article SMAC2 IN FULL 3D? http://apolyton.net/misc/
Always thought settlers looked like Viking helmets. Took me a while to spot they were supposed to be wagons. - The pirate about Settlers in Civ 1
Zealot is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 13:05   #73
Fiera
Emperor
 
Fiera's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Posts: 4,061
Thanks again for that link, Chris!

On the translation to the Notes written on the map, Piri Reis refer to the New World as discovered by "a Genoese infidel named Colombo". The text also says "The coasts and island on this map are taken from Colombo's map", (at the end of Note V).

So if we can trust the translation, I wouldn't talk about a real mystery here, at least the map origins are clear.

Check the translated notes here: http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/eng...reis/notes.htm
Fiera is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:16   #74
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Secondly... the biggest ships in Zheng He's fleet were 4 times the size of Columbus' Santa Maria. To cross the Cape of Good Hope, wouldn't have worked well for ships that freaking large. They wouldn't be able to manuver.
Well, don't forget that the giant Treasure Ships were very few in number, they were the prized flagships of the fleet. There were many smaller ships perhaps better able to weather those seas. The fleet which alledgedly reached North America broke off from the main fleet, which took Zheng He (and perhaps the Treasure Ships) home, maybe to witness the opening of the Forbidden City. The rest of the fleet did not return until a year later.

Here are some more details concerning Zheng He's fleets. All of this is from When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne (Louise LeVathes, Oxford University Press, 1994). Following B&W images are from this book, color photos are from Heavenly Creations - Gems of Ancient Chinese Inventions (Hong Kong Musem of History, 1998).


At the time of Zheng He's voyages, China posessed about 1,700 ocean-going vessels of all sizes.

During the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644) the main design used for ocean-going ships was the fuchuan. This type of vessel was suited for rough seas, featuring sharply-pointed v-shaped hulls, and wide overhanging decks. The prow & stern were very high. They usually had four decks, the lowest of which was filled with ballast. Marco Polo described a voyage in ships of the fuchuan type, which he described as having four masts, nine sails, and a crew of about 250 men. Chinese vessels from the eleventh century onward used floating compasses for navigation.

The ships of Zheng He's Treasure Fleets were based largely on the fuchuan's design. The biggest of them, the Treasure Ships, were probably about 400 feet long, and about 160 feet wide, with nine staggered (not in-line) masts bearing 12 square sails of red silk cloth. The hulls were divided into watertight compartments. The prow had special chambers designed to take in water when the ship pitched forward in heavy waves. This device, along with special floating anchors, provided stabilization in rough seas.

Below: fuchuan-style ship
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	zh2.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	79.2 KB
ID:	11248  

Last edited by mindseye; March 11, 2002 at 14:34.
mindseye is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:18   #75
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Model of a Treasure Ship. The exact design is not known - oddly, there are no surviving drawings.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	zh3.jpg
Views:	45
Size:	72.4 KB
ID:	11249  
mindseye is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:21   #76
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Treasure Ship (about 400 ft) compared with Columbus' Santa Maria (85 ft).
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	zh5.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	32.2 KB
ID:	11252  
mindseye is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:23   #77
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Model of a Ming Dynasty anti-ship cruise missile. The four rockets (probably angled downward) propelled the missile as it skimmed the surface towards its target. When it neared the enemy ship, a time-delayed fuse ignited a volley of rocket-propelled arrows which burst forth from the mouth.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	zh4.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	23.0 KB
ID:	11253  
mindseye is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:24   #78
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Twelfth-century sidewheeler, propelled by man-powered treadmills. Used for river and lake battles. They were equipped with archers, rams, and sometimes even catapults for hurling gunpowder bombs.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	zh1.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	60.8 KB
ID:	11255  
mindseye is offline  
Old March 11, 2002, 14:32   #79
Chris 62
Spanish CiversCivilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Chris 62's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the memmories of the past
Posts: 4,487
Found a news links about this story:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/pri...106236,00.html

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...06_91553.shtml

And a little about Zheng He:

http://www.china2thou.com/9805p7.htm

I will be quite interested to see what the scholars think of the evidence to be presented.
__________________
I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG
Chris 62 is offline  
Old March 17, 2002, 09:17   #80
Fayadi
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 05:32
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Overseas Chinese living in Singapore
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Zheng He's voyages are of great interest, but the most dubious claim here is that he managed to round Cape Horn, perhaps the most dangerous passage on the planet. Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.
European were practically inferior to the Chinese until about 1800's AD.European ships were too inferior until the coming of the spanish armada which i think has the equal quality if not the Chinese's bigger
Hell I am so damn proud to be a Chinese we have become a superpower for many millenia (except during the 19 th and 20 th which we have countless of internal wars and political chaos)

AOA or Chris 62 hell you are here too troublemaker ,CFC will forever be "dirty" as long as u r there.Yeah i still remember u r the mod who cause flame war in my thread and closed it for your own selfish purpose
Fayadi is offline  
Old March 17, 2002, 10:48   #81
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
Quote:
European were practically inferior to the Chinese until about 1800's AD.European ships were too inferior until the coming of the spanish armada which i think has the equal quality if not the Chinese's bigger
Hell I am so damn proud to be a Chinese we have become a superpower for many millenia (except during the 19 th and 20 th which we have countless of internal wars and political chaos)

AOA or Chris 62 hell you are here too troublemaker ,CFC will forever be "dirty" as long as u r there.Yeah i still remember u r the mod who cause flame war in my thread and closed it for your own selfish purpose
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old March 17, 2002, 11:12   #82
mactbone
Prince
 
mactbone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IGNORE ME
Posts: 728
I'll still go with Brendan, just because.

Oh, and I don't think we can say that the Amerindians discovered America, that's like asking who discovered Mesopatamia or Europe.

Really, I got out of high school fairly recently and in my American History class we were divided into teams to find out who discovered America. The different possibilities were the Amerindians, the Vikings, Columbus, Brendan, and probably one or two other nobodies. So, it's not like we're blindly accepting Columbus, we just consider him the most important discoverer of America, because he got the ball rolling on expansion to the Americas.
__________________
I never know their names, But i smile just the same
New faces...Strange places,
Most everything i see, Becomes a blur to me
-Grandaddy, "The Final Push to the Sum"
mactbone is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:32.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team