No room for civility any more?

[Thrawn05]

Considering the fact of a recent flame thread in this forum, I think Vel posted his thoughts in the right place.

I wonder if someone is keeping track of the people or are or went to Mingapulco .


Anyway, I think it's only nature for people to be polorized about a game (There is currently a civil war in the AvP community, those who like AvP more, and those like AvP2 more). However, it's one thing to state your claim and give a good argument, it's another to just rant. (well, i guess you rant once to vent the steam, but that's it).

My God, that must be most valuable thing I've said these boards yet. My IQ going up a notch.

[Alex]

Vel: nice to see you around here. I also remember when these boards were chock full of discussion and interesting arguments and points of view about... the games we love to play.

And I support your initiative with this thread. This place deserves a more civilized tone, in my opinion.

[Velociryx]

Thanks guys! I mean that....there's no reason at all why we can't make the boards more civil and more new-user friendly...they (the forums) are a reflection of ourselves, so we can make them whatever we like.



-=Vel=-

[Ming]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Thanks guys! I mean that....there's no reason at all why we can't make the boards more civil and more new-user friendly...they (the forums) are a reflection of ourselves, so we can make them whatever we like.
-=Vel=-

Unfortunately, some people seem to have a different version of what they like

[Velociryx]

True Ming....too true.

But you know....an insignificant lump of coal can be turned into a flawless diamond with the application of pressure and time.

Sufficient quantities of each can change anything.



-=Vel=-

[Ming]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sufficient quantities of each can change anything.
-=Vel=-

Some truth in that...

However, with the emotions that many have invested in Civ...
It is going to take a flawless game... and since that is a matter of opinion...

[Velociryx]

Sad but true man. Oh...I think because Sid's got such a reputation, the game would not have to be absolutely flawless, but it's sure got a ways to go to get even in the ballpark (In my opinion! )

And, the problem with the whole pressure and time thing is that there are few with the patience to actually see it through. Maybe I'll be included on that list before it's all over with....Velocigames is still a baby company...still lots of opportunity to go wrong, but I'm watching Firaxis' experiences here, and learning from them....

-=Vel=-

[korn469]

Vel

excellent points you've brought up in this thread
and i'll just throw my observations in here as well

the quality of the game should have very little to do with the civility of the posts in a forum, there are certain things that i like about civ3 and there are certain things i hate, i was dissapointed with civ3, but that is because my expectations for it were higher than for any other game ever, if civ3 had of lived up to all of my expectations i doubt that anyone would post on apolyton about civ3 because we would all be playing it continously

so i can certainly respect when people feel that parts of the game are inferior, i feel the same way, however much (certainly not all) of the game can be changed, for some people, disappointment with the game fuels them to go change what they don't like, for others they complain, and there certainly isn't anything wrong with complaining, in fact the best feedback firaxis can get is high quality complaints

argumentation is also good, unlike Tarquelne i do not feel that everyone must put that they are posting opinions, i ALWAYS assume that everyone is posting their opinion, and the only way they can prove it to me is by backing it up with good quality arguments

me and Ralf had MANY arguments over Social Engineering and Nuclear Weapons in civ3, and i did cross the line a few times because i felt very passionate about it, but on the same had i always tried to make the distinction between the arguments and the person, while i believe it is perfectly ok to try and demolish someone's arguments with good counter arguments, i feel that it is NEVER ok to try to just destroy a person, and if i have ever been guilty of this i'm very sorry

we don't have to agree on the various merits and flaws of civ3, and it is fun to discuss them over and over again, but we do try to make sure that everyone goes away from the discussion, no matter how heated it gets feeling good they participated in it

when it comes to new members of the community, first thing not everyone has as much familiarity with the civ genre as some of us do, and not everyone is a hard core gamer

for some people who find there way here this may be the first civ game they have ever played, and they may only play it causually, like an hour or two a week

some people don't even know what RTFM means, and posts like that gives the wrong impression of the community

it is everyone's responsibility to make this a good community that fosters debate and welcomes new members, no one person can make people feel at home if 20 others are insulting them

i hope that civ3 can regain some of the civility we've lost, though in general most people here are more than civil, and very few are here simply to antagonize others, even the ones who post "MY GAWD! CIV3 SUCKS HARDER THAT A HOOVER!!!" aren't really trying to piss other off for the most part, and a civil engagement in discussion with them is better than a thousand responces like this

"GET YOUR MONEY BACK!"
"LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME!"
"STOP YOUR WHINING!"

i guess we all just have to set the best example we can and hope others respond in kind, and sometimes miscommunication makes even harmless things seem like personal assaults, so sometimes an appology in a pm can do more to establish a civil community than anything else

[Velociryx]

Well said Korn...well said indeed.



-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

i've been lurking here too long, time to post something

korn: i think you're very right to make the distinction between heated debate and personal attacks.
it's nice when everyone can agree with each other, but there really aren't many things better than a good argument. perhaps the main benefit about hanging out with your friends (whether in Real Life or on the 'net) is that you can have a serious and fundamental disagreement about something, and yet you can shake hands and share a beer after it's all over because nothing too personal has been said and any argument is water under the bridge.

everybody is entitled to their own opinions, of course, even if their opinion is that it is acceptable to unleash a string of expletives at somebody who doesn't have the same view on some computer game as them. people who like to do that get on my nerves, certainly, and i wish they'd stop it, but i'd be the last person to try and MAKE them stop.

ASKing the flamers to stop, like Vel is doing in this thread, is as admirable as it is ambitious. i haven't been around these boards long enough to pretend that i know the people who come here, but i've been on enough internet forums to know that there will always be people who love to flame and personally abuse others, and this will unfortunately never stop.

hopefully the people that get flamed have the sense and maturity not to take it to heart, in which case nobody gets hurt and everybody can move on.

[Velociryx]

Heya Stoo! And thank you for makin' your way over here! Sadly, I know you're right. There have been Trolls for as long as there have been forums, and my thread here won't stop that....won't make them go away.

But maybe...just *maybe* because of this thread, there will be a few less flamefests, and if we can have even that small impact, then we're on the right road....

-=Vel=-
(who is now off to check the Velocigames thread here, and thence to the Portal threads!)

[Spec]

Great thread Vel, it's about time someone said something about it. Let me just add a couple of Spec's ingredients;

I think that with the attitude here and posts like "Zylka 95 reasons to hate Civ3" really clouds the judgement of newbies who just bought the game and peeps who are taking a look at this forum cuz the're thinking of buying the game.

Posts like these, IMO, are not constructive and only destroy the already "not so good" reputation that Civ3 has. I agree, Zylka had some good points but there are better ways of getting your point across than insulting FIRAXIS and exagerating every little flaw that Civ3 has.

I've seen a lot of posts by peeps that didn't even try the game and they posted threads like:"Why the hell should I buy Civ3" and "Does Civ3 sucks as much as ppl say?".

Well to those threads I answer, "try it for yourself". I did and I'm glad I did. Civ3 is a great game, with it's flaws of course, but a whole lot of fun to play. That's my opinion, feel free to debate but in a civilized way.

You see what I mean? I dont like it when ppl want to destroy the game for others because THEY dont like it. Let me tell you all something, a game is just like a car, if everybody liked the same car, there would only be one car on the market.

Spec.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by korn469
unlike Tarquelne i do not feel that everyone must put that they are posting opinions,

A little clarification. I don't think that everyone must say that they are posting opinions.... just that they should be aware of the differences between various sorts of statements, and that it's often good to be explicit.

I'm moved to repsond because "everyone must put that they are posting opinions" is pretty close to the _opposite_ of what I feel. A "IMO" before and after every statement would not only be silly, it'd be incorrect.

[Samudragupt]

All this (forced ??) civility is getting me down
Not what I want to see first thing in the morning

[korn469]

Tarquelne

hehe that's just kinda how it sounded, though i know that you didn't mean

IMO, combat is yadda yadda yadda, moreover also in IMHO combat is also yadda blah yadda blah

i was talking about i don't feel a person EVER really need specify between an opinion and a fact except if they were answering a question like

what is the hotkey for railroads?

hehe then if you are saying something like ctrl-alt-delete you probably should specify that is an opinion

[rpodos]

I have been lurking here and at CivFanatics since early November.

I am addicted to the entire Civ series, going as far back as Empire. I have thoroughly enjoyed learning from other gamers, and have also been dismayed by the gradual decay of civility on these forums... thus, my first post.

1. I heartily agree with Vel's first post on this thread... "If you have good, generous, kind hearted, patient people, you'll get a good, generous, kind hearted, patient board." What's so hard about that?

2. Yes, jt, I have seen the moderators' heavy hand... my first comparison would be to Mayor Giuliani (I live in NYC), who has mixed fierce and soometimes overly harsh discipline with the greatest of compassion and effort; I guess we have to be patient with moderators too.

3. The game itself: It is not everything it should be... in fact, I have yet to complete a game (I've played about 35-40 so far). Once I hit late industrial or the early modern age, I have achieved overwhelming momentum, and prefer not to deal with late-game tedium. Very dissatisfying, as compared to the "win" in Civ 2 or SMAC. And I agree, post-1.17 the AI is doomed to Communist ruin.

So be it... CIVility should still be expected, especially in that the Firaxians have made it clear that they too are passionate about the game, and are listening and reacting to those community members who are constructive and not abusive. I participated in the last chat, and it was eminently clear that Jeff, Dan, Soren, et al, were really trying to focus on feedback from the more positive participants. I have faith that they will continue to improve the game, and that the fracturing of the community through mods and changed BICs will be healed.

Lastly, much thanks to those who have so greatly contributed here and at CivFanatics... you have added immeasurebly to my enjoyment of the game.

R

[Whoha]

Just to be sure, you are talking about the one with the text display, aren't you? That game is awesome, and the ai really improves if you prohibit it from building warships(only transports) because then it builds lots of planes and uses them ala smac/x.

[rpodos]

I'm not sure what you mean by "text display."

The Empire I used to play was by Sid Meier, and was sort of combat-only precursor to Civ. It was awesome... in fact, some of the military concepts and interface would be useful in Civ 3.

R

[Jack_www]

Many of the people who work at firaxis and visit this site no longer go to the gerneral forum. The main reason was the massive ammounts of complaining that was done when the game first came out and all the arguing and name calling that came with it. I dont think they mind reading complants about the game and responding to them, but when someone voices the same complaint a million times and then starts to agrue with people who disagree with them it gets really ugly. Thus the lack "civility" on the general forum that has been here since the release of the game has driven away the people who work at firaxis away. Many people wonder why no one at firaxis responds to their questions and comments on the general forum, and think that it is because they dont care about pr, which I though for a long time. But it is because the general forum has turn into a big flam war so to speak. I do not like to curse or to arguee over anything, especially of all things a simple game. All it is a game, why must people get so upset about it and and start a flam war over it??????

This is something that we see all around us in the world we live today. People are becoming ruder and ruder. I hope people can agree to disagree and have disscussions were they do not feel a need to start flam wars and can have fun posting. I thought people play games and talk to other people about the game to have fun, not to agrue and insult anyone who has a different opoin then them about a game.

[Subway's Jared]

Here it's just like in the streets, ppl are mean and they call me fat boy.....

But I dont mind, I can have it my way cuz I eat at subway!

[godinex]

I`m new in this forum, but one of the best things of this place is the people. Keep the figth for the forum... and Vel, the force be with You.

[Gatekeeper]

Velociryx :

For God's sake, why do I feel like I've just been to a revival meeting after reading this thread?

CYBERAmazon

[Cookie Monster]

Good job Vel on your attempt to restore order.

I think society in general needs to be more civil.

"Man technological progress over the ages is quite impressive. But it is amazing how little man himself has changed." He still tends to act the way that the neanderthals or barbarians did so long ago. No manners, no morals, no etiquette.

Here's to hoping that here at least people can be more civil.
(Pick's up mug of virtual beer and raises a toast)

[Capt Dizle]

In response to Jack, Firaxis has not communicated with the fans here in regard to what they are doing in regard to addressing some of the issues in the game. This has lead to ever increasingly outragous posts by people.

Look at the last patch readme. It was unintelligable. I have been playing civ games forever as well as many other games and I couldn't decipher what they were trying to say.

When Firaxians post they do as much harm as good. I don't think they understand the concept of PR, if they were in another line of business and treated people like this they would be out of business.

Firaxis rushed a game to market. People paid money for it. Firaxis is obligated by the laws of common decency to communicate with the people who paid for the incomplete and untested product. We should have a list from them now of things to be patched and an ETA for the next patch.

The fact that Firaxis has not done any PR at all has contributed to the discord on this forum. In that respect they are somewhat to blame for the lack of civility.

At any rate, I can not let you get off with saying that they don't look at the forum because of the complaints, its as if you want some of us to be sorry that we hurt their feelings.

jt

[Capt Dizle]

And one more thing. If you look carefully you will see that the worst behavior here, the name calling foulness and personal attacks are not being made by those complaining about the game. Most of it is done by Firaxis apologists.

[Ming]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Most of it is done by Firaxis apologists.

I think there is more than enough blame to spread on both sides.

Even if you feel the game is incomplete... or bad... or the worst game you have ever bought, it doesn't give you the "moral high ground" to personally insult members of the Firaxis team.

I have no problems with people making complaints. And due to the lack of response, I can understand people making the same complaint over and over again. There is a lot of frustration out their now... but still, resorting to insults is just plain wrong.

And to those that insult the people that are insulting Firaxis or members of this site...
Two wrongs don't make a right...

[Arrian]

Jimmy & Jack,

I think the point here is that whether or not someone is arguing for or against CivIII or a particular feature, insults, foul language and the like are unacceptable. Some people on both sides of the "CivIII sucks/CivIII rules" argument have been rude and insulting. I know some felt that they were driven to it by others who starting flinging insults their way, but even that isn't really a good excuse.

-Arrian

Edit: heh, Ming beat me to it.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
In response to Jack, Firaxis has not communicated with the fans here in regard to what they are doing in regard to addressing some of the issues in the game. This has lead to ever increasingly outragous posts by people.

Look at the last patch readme. It was unintelligable. I have been playing civ games forever as well as many other games and I couldn't decipher what they were trying to say.

When Firaxians post they do as much harm as good. I don't think they understand the concept of PR, if they were in another line of business and treated people like this they would be out of business.

Firaxis rushed a game to market. People paid money for it. Firaxis is obligated by the laws of common decency to communicate with the people who paid for the incomplete and untested product. We should have a list from them now of things to be patched and an ETA for the next patch.

The fact that Firaxis has not done any PR at all has contributed to the discord on this forum. In that respect they are somewhat to blame for the lack of civility.

At any rate, I can not let you get off with saying that they don't look at the forum because of the complaints, its as if you want some of us to be sorry that we hurt their feelings.

jt

One thing I want to clear up was that I was refering to the fact that no one at firaxis ever posts anything on the general forum anymore. Many are still active in the creation and strategy forums
and they do respond to people's posts to a limited degree. I am not saying pr at firaxis could not use some help, but they have been active in some of the forums on this site. I also do not want this to turn into a disscusssion about how firaxis handles pr, and that slowly turn into a flam war and destroy the orginal purpose of this thread. Many people at firaxis have said they stay away form the general forum and I think it is because of all the stuff that goes on in the general forum.

In this thread is were I got the information that firaxis personal, at least on of them anyways, is active in the creation and strategy forums.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=40647

[Capt Dizle]

Ming, I think I get your point.

[TheDarkCavalier]

Just came back from school, it's kinda late for this, but anyways here goes...

1. IGNORE stupid questions? what if it's a newbie that doesn't understand something... pointing out that the question is stupid isn't really wrong...

2. A maanual is made in such way, not to reveal too much, but also HELP the player...

3. And Vel's euh... friend, I think you're the one that's wrong...