View Poll Results: Iroquois deserve to be in Civ3?
Yes - because they are Americans 10 19.23%
Yes - for no reason 15 28.85%
No - they weren't civilized 10 19.23%
No - they were too small 14 26.92%
I don't care 3 5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old May 22, 2002, 18:08   #31
Alanus
Warlord
 
Alanus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: du bon peuple de France (et de Bretagne)
Posts: 137
Quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Alanus.
Yes, what's the message ?
Alanus is offline  
Old May 22, 2002, 18:16   #32
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
I think Sagacious answered to "who resurrected this thread ?" by simply saying your name. You're guilty to have resurrected a one-star ranted thread !
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old May 22, 2002, 19:18   #33
trickey
Civilization III Democracy GameNever Ending StoriesRise of Nations MultiplayerPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Prince
 
trickey's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
Posts: 740
i think that the civs should be groubed by their area, not just the borders pf thier country (e.i: canada being included as part of america cause they really started at the same time even if no official country was set up
trickey is offline  
Old May 23, 2002, 13:39   #34
Alanus
Warlord
 
Alanus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: du bon peuple de France (et de Bretagne)
Posts: 137
Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I think Sagacious answered to "who resurrected this thread ?" by simply saying your name. You're guilty to have resurrected a one-star ranted thread !
Got you. Well, I'm just back in this forum after 2 years of silence so I've just browsed accross the forum and gave my opinion on not that too old threads.
The moderator can close it anyway is not of interest
Alanus is offline  
Old May 23, 2002, 13:39   #35
Dauphin
Civilization IV PBEMPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Dauphin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
I was answering the question as Spiffor said.

Carry on....
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
Dauphin is offline  
Old May 23, 2002, 18:46   #36
siredgar
Prince
 
siredgar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 543
Yes, the Iroquois deserve to be in Civ 3, but only if there were 32 civs in the game. I am not into "space-fillers", but the Iroquois had some impressive achievements compared to other peoples in that part of the world.
__________________
"I've spent more time posting than playing."
siredgar is offline  
Old June 6, 2002, 07:39   #37
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
I think that the game should have had more Civs. But if you're going to set a limit at 16, I agree, the Iroquois shouldn't be in the game. The Turks are definitely more important and had more to do with history.
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old June 6, 2002, 13:05   #38
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old June 6, 2002, 15:08   #39
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.
The Turks, the Ottoman Empire, influenced the Western World in a big way. Christianity would have been destroyed if the Ottomans had gotten past the Balkans. Plus, the Iroquois did nothing to affect the World as a whole. The Americans were the only nation affected by them, and other than a few sports team names, location names, and liquor sales, Native Americans as a group haven't had much influence in the US.
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old June 6, 2002, 20:07   #40
Jethro83
Prince
 
Jethro83's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:36
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 834
Here we go again

This thread just isn't getting anywhere. It should be closed IMHO. Its making no sense to me why there's a continual need to resurrect it.
Jethro83 is offline  
Old June 7, 2002, 16:56   #41
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Sava
The Turks, the Ottoman Empire, influenced the Western World in a big way. Christianity would have been destroyed if the Ottomans had gotten past the Balkans.
Or if the Zulus had. But they didn't either.
As history went, the Ottomans did not have all to great an influence on western Europe. They're still fun to play with, and unique enough with their emphasis on artillery.

Quote:
Plus, the Iroquois did nothing to affect the World as a whole. The Americans were the only nation affected by them, and other than a few sports team names, location names, and liquor sales, Native Americans as a group haven't had much influence in the US.
I'm inclined to agree with Lord Azrael.
Sava, go read a book (for instance Morgan or Marx). Or if you want to be taught from scratch, bring a bundle of euro's, or wampum, or whatever reliable currency you have available (the dollar is rather weak at the moment ).
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old June 7, 2002, 23:29   #42
Imp. Montezuma
Warlord
 
Imp. Montezuma's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:36
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole. Besides, if we left the Americans with just the Aztecs they would become all haughty.
It's true. Mediterranean (and Europa, and Asia etc. together) is very very local area. Only America is great planet. One year in America equal 30 years in Old World.

Good point of view to importance. "In Americas people walk with legs up and heads down!"

In medieval maps center of Earth was in Jerusalem. In American maps today center of Earth is in Washington, D.C.

P.S. When I drink cofee, I remember Turks and Kaffa in Ethiopia. When I smoke cigarette, I don't remember Iroquois.
__________________
CiviPort
Imp. Montezuma is offline  
Old June 8, 2002, 04:24   #43
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.

But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.

But it is only when I hear the cannons, that I remember the Ottomans.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old June 12, 2002, 12:34   #44
Fresno
Warlord
 
Fresno's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Europa
Posts: 247
The title of this thread seems somehow familiar to me...

I voted yes - they're old enough to be in Civ3...
Fresno is offline  
Old June 26, 2002, 12:31   #45
Imperial-Markus
Chieftain
 
Imperial-Markus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 69
I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out. So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization. The Iroquois were uncivilized and far far behind in technological matters. Therefore they don't deserve it to be handled as a civilization furthermore their specialunit suck anyway.
__________________
When you want to dance do it the trance way

Last edited by Imperial-Markus; June 26, 2002 at 12:37.
Imperial-Markus is offline  
Old June 26, 2002, 18:01   #46
spy14
Prince
 
spy14's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 521
The Iroquois are only there because the mayans and the Incans are way to similar to the Aztecs, and other Native American groups such as apache and chinook are to small to include as proper civ's (same as the Iroquois then )
__________________
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender B. Rodriguez
spy14 is offline  
Old June 28, 2002, 10:11   #47
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out.
The Iroquois didn't WANT to wipe them out. They saw the enormous advantage that an alliance with the Europeans would give them over their rivals, and history proved them right. They built their empire on their trade with (first of all) the Dutch. The French chose to support their enemies, which cost them (the French) dearly.
Without the trade with the Europeans, the Iroquois would have gained ground much slower.
Quote:
So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization.
The Iroquois were never destroyed. As I said above, the arrival of the Europeans made them blossom. Later, after the numbers of the colonists had grown far beyond the size of the Iroquois population, they still remained the most powerful force in North America for a long time. Finally, it was internal disagreement that made the League shrink during the American War of Independence, they were never conquered.
Today the Iroquois are still largely independent within the USA and Canadian borders, with their own laws and government.
Quote:
The Iroquois were uncivilized
The main European philosophers of the 17th century and beyond disagreed with you, they thought very highly of the Iroquois democracy and way of life. The Iroquois inspired European enlightenment and specifically the French Revolution, as well as the later ideas of Marx and Engels. The US of A was modelled after their example.
Quote:
and far far behind in technological matters.
Not at all. They were ahead of the Europeans in some fields (agriculture, government, social values, urban planning, medicinal drugs), behind in others (metallurgy, seafaring, banking, chemistry). That's why the contact was such a success for both sides.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 07:42   #48
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
hi ,

they have to be in , for now , even if it was only to serve the goal as a space-filler , .....

have a nic day
Panag is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 12:47   #49
Gangerolf
Prince
 
Gangerolf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: KULTUR-TERROR
Posts: 958
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.

But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.
nice
but this can be said about many other "civs" as well, can't it?
Gangerolf is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 12:50   #50
Gangerolf
Prince
 
Gangerolf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: KULTUR-TERROR
Posts: 958
I voted "yes - for no reason", btw. Obviously there are several reasons, but the other option "yes - because they are americans" is wee bit stupid
Gangerolf is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 14:44   #51
Imperial-Markus
Chieftain
 
Imperial-Markus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 69
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.

Well if these are sings of friendly people I'd rather have not a "nice" Iro in my neighbourhood.

Markus
__________________
When you want to dance do it the trance way
Imperial-Markus is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 14:47   #52
Thorgal
Spanish Civers
Emperor
 
Local Time: 22:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tarifa, Cádiz.
Posts: 3,567
Quote:
The influence of the Turks was important locally, but the Iroquois influenced the course of human civilization as a whole.

The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.
Thorgal is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 15:08   #53
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
Quote:
Originally posted by thorgalaeg


The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.
hi ,

it aint funny to say such things , .....



have a nice day
Panag is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 19:34   #54
Jethro83
Prince
 
Jethro83's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:36
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 834
Quote:
Originally posted by thorgalaeg


The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.


Let me suggest something to you. Go and read some history. And don't make such stupid comments about people. Regardless of whether you think someone is right or wrong, that does not give any right, privelage or duty to say things like that.


Quote:
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.
And you can't say that kind of thing about anybody else?! How about the Nubians attacking 'innocent' Egyptians (and vice-versa), the Dorians attacking 'innocent' Greeks, the Germanic tribes attacking 'innocent' Romans. Yep, even the Anglo-Saxon tribes (ancestors of the English) were also cruel to the 'innocent' Britons, and were in turn treated cruelly by the Normans. And what about the Mongols attacking 'innocent' Chinese, Persians and Seljuk Turks? The cruelty you describe has happened everywhere in history, and to just about everyone.

Mind you, the English and French had a bit to answer for themselves in the New World.

NOW CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST LET THIS POINTLESS RANT DIE ?!
Jethro83 is offline  
Old July 1, 2002, 19:50   #55
MarkG
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
 
MarkG's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:36
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
indeed
__________________
Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog
MarkG is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:36.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team