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Old March 13, 2002, 18:58   #1
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Civ choice for early warmongering
Prospects for early warmongering, by civ (clearly assuming that culture grouping is on):

Egypt: Neighbors are Greece & Rome. Ouch. Your UU, a cheap horseman that can't enter Mts. or Jungle, is decent, especially since you can muster large numbers pretty early, but both of your neighbors can field units with a defense of 3 to counter it. If Rome doesn't have iron, which you cannot count on, it might be easier. Warmonger grade: C

Rome: Neighbors are Greece & Egypt. Greece has hoplites, which match your legions... provided you can get iron. Egypt is not a problem. You are militaristic, too, ain't that cool?Warmonger grade: B+

Greece: Neighbors are Rome and Egypt. Rome w/iron means legions, and they will build a lot of 'em. Egypt has cheap horsemen. Warmonger grade: B-

Germany: Neighbors are England, France & Russia. None of them have ancient UU's, and none are militaristic. You also have a later UU, but are a militarist. Warmonger grade: A-

England: Neighbors are the other Europeans, which includes one militarist, Germany, which is probably the most aggresive civ in the game. No early UU's. Warmonger grade: C

France: Ditto England.

Russia: Ditto England & France.

Babylon: Neighbors are Persia and Zululand. Persia w/iron means Immortals, and the Zulu are aggresive militarists. The Impi is death to horsemen. Your UU is garbage. Warmonger grade: D

Persia: Neigbors are the Babs and Zulu. Babs are a juicy target, and Impis aren't too much of a problem for a unit with an attack of 4. Your unit is slow, though. Warmonger grade: A

Zululand: Neighbors are Babs and Persians. Persia has a strong attack unit, but it's just a swordsman on defense. The Babs, as mentioned before, present little threat. You are militaristic, and can form horseman/impi teams. Yikes! Warmonger grade: B+

Japan: Neighbors are China and India. No early UU's. China is militaristic, India is very much NOT militaristic. You are militaristic and start with the wheel. Warmonger grade: A

China: Neighbors are Japan and India. You are a militarist, and so is Japan. India is a lamb to the slaughterhouse. Grade: A-

India: What do you think? Grade: F

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "grades" I handed out apply only if you intend to attack early and crush you neighbors. If you intend to build up first, and hit with overwhelming force later, it's a whole different ballgame.

-Arrian
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Old March 13, 2002, 20:48   #2
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I guess you're assuming with culturally linked starting positions is enabled. I haven't been playing that way, so I can't contribute much, but what about the Iroqois and Aztec, some of the best early war mongers? They certainly took a hit with the patch in the the redraw capability. I think they probably went from an A+ to an A-.

The Zulu deserve better than a B+. I would give them a solid A, partly because of their UU is so durable and fast. Being Militaristic and Expansionist, they have great attributes to build strong, fast Impis or scouts and explore the terrain early to secure vital resources. Plus thier UU upgrades all the way to mech infantry.

The other marks seem reasonable.

I guess the Germans could get an A-, mainly if it is by being next to weaker neighbors. it seems to be more the way the AI plays them that is so intimidating.

I guess I could see Japan getting an A. I guess if they do well in the early game, then their Samurai can expand on that. I have played against them many times, but never as them.

Persia, even if they are culturally grouped might have a difficult time with Zulus, especially if they haven't a source for iron. I would rate them a B+ or A-.
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Old March 13, 2002, 22:02   #3
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Couple of points.

Egyptian war chariots are available after just researching the wheel, whereas horses require warrior code and horseback riding. This is a huge difference for early attacking, especially on the higher levels where a few extra turns matter. You can hit Rome with a stack of war chariots before they have any/many legions, even on deity.

The Babs are so much better IMO than indicated. I have played a few deity games with them recently and they are a dark horse. They are only one tech away from a cheap (critical for 1.17f deity) unit that requires no additional defence. You need the 40 turns to build a couple of cities with barracks anyway, then build a stack vet bowman and pick your target, for once rejoicing in the early golden age. Some civs are still better in this regard (I would say the Egyptians are one) but the Babs have a further advantage in that when the conquering is over and you have a mad scramble to catch up with the AI elsewhere you can change to a peaceful footing easily. Cheap temples, cathedrals, libraries, universities etc
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Old March 13, 2002, 23:37   #4
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The keys for early warmongering are the Militaristic trait, a good Ancient era UU, getting to the Wheel, Horseback Riding, and Iron Working quickly, and being able to take out the AI's Iron (Horses vs Iroquois) resources early on. The Industrious trait helps a bit in getting the war machine set up, especially for Iron Civs.

The Militaristic trait is much more important with the 1.17f patch. Before, any civ could build a Barracks for the same price, one pop rush. Now pop rushing a Barracks isn't a good idea, so the half price of Barracks for Militarists means something. Also the more common promotions means that Militaristic unit's retreat % is better on average. The other advantages are still there, more leaders and starting with 1 tech towards Horseback Riding.

Most Ancient UU's can be used effectively, the ones with upgrade paths and mobility are the most valuable. The Ancient Era doesn't last too long on higher difficulty levels. Deity games I've played usually reach the middle ages by about 1000BC. While Swordsmen UU's are effective early on, their lifespan is much too short. Not being able to use pop-rushing to quickly build up an army just makes this more apparent.

Getting to the valuable war techs first is a huge advantage. Iron Working to see the Iron and build Swordsmen, the Wheel to see Horses, and Horseback Riding to build Horsemen. This gives Scientific Civs an advantage, as they start with Bronze Working. The Germans are the only ones who get 2 techs towards these goals. The Japanese get to see the Horses from the start which is a nice edge.

Expansionist Civs get a lot of help from a tech standpoint. Even on smaller maps they get more from goody huts than anyone else would. The Russians are the Civ most likely to get Iron Working first. The Zulu have the best shot at Horseback Riding. The Expansionist Civs also get a better shot at an early Settler, one of which can just about double the players expansion and military buildup. Expansionist's maps are worth enough gold to upgrade all those Horsemen to Knights later on, or a few Middle Ages techs.

On their own, Scouts deliver a huge advantage when used for locating and/or denying resources. In wartime, they can nulify a "slow" Civ by themselves, keeping the entire AI's offensive force walking around in circles. I think using Scouts this way is exploitive, but it is one of their abilities. At a cost of 10 sheilds, Scouts might be the most cost effective unit in the game.

I agree with most of your grades Arrian, but like Shaka II, would have to give the Zulu at least an A. Also I would give Expansionist Civs in general another half a grade higher. The French should be down with the Indians or lower. Commercial is worthless for both. Religious is a better overall trait than Industrial, though not as important early on. The GA's come at about the same time. The main difference is that the War Elephants can be useful in some situations (you shouldn't be without Iron though), while the Musketeer (and Musketmen in general) are a complete waste. The Russians are also stronger than a C, probably a B on how fast they can get to Iron Working.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zulu - the only Civ which benefits in all the important areas. I've played about 50 Ancient eras with them, and haven't once had to fight against Immortals, and almost never against Swordsmen. This is even though I rarely use Scouts for holding Iron resources. I can get Impi on that Hill or Mountain very quickly, and Archers don't have much effect against Impi. Grade: A+(+)

Iroquois - Best UU in the game still, probably even more so with the patch. Not being able to pop-rush Horsemen, or retreat with them as much, makes the +1 attack value more important. They miss out on the Militaristic advantages, but are still strong because of Expansionist. The Iroquois can take out an AI civ faster (by duration) than any other Ancient era Civ. Grade: A+(+)

Aztec - With the new tech trading rules the Jags have a shorter offensive lifespan. They still are effective early on, and give the Aztec a few of the Expansionist advantages. Militaristic, and with a useful cheap UU. Their Golden Age comes a bit too soon, as Jag's have to strike as quickly as possible. The Aztec can still take out an AI civ faster (by date) than any other Civ. Grade: A

Americans - They might as well not have a UU. Expansionist and Industrial does give them a good start though. They are just a hair stronger than the English, who are the weakest of the Expansionists. Grade: B-
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Old March 14, 2002, 02:09   #5
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Oh Aeson, there you go getting all serious and meticulous again.

It's simple. Rome rules. A+++++

Why?

1. Militaristic. Cheap Barracks.

2. Commercial. Romans are Commercial, it must be good.

3. Legions. The most under-rated UU by all the semi-professional raters.

4. Me. I play them. Egocentrism is always a good justification. Sounds good to me.

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Old March 14, 2002, 03:01   #6
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I like your arguments notyoueither! Sorry to rain seriousness down upon the discussion, but I had to defend my Impi!
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Old March 14, 2002, 03:44   #7
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Yes. I guess he probably did give the Impi rather short shrift. I guess you learned em. He won't do that again.

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Old March 14, 2002, 08:43   #8
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Lol. We are all mainly commenting on civs we like that we feel were maligned in the original rating. Guess it was pretty predictable Aeson plumping for the Zulus and Notyoueither for the Romans
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Old March 14, 2002, 09:19   #9
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In my games till 1.17 came, I was more a builder than a warmonger. I just had 3 or 4 weeks break (not counting a few quick strategy checks). Now I'm up to make a warmonger style game, with all but conquest turned off. Well, I could take "my" Germans and things would be fine. But I played most of my builder games with them and want to try something new. According to Arrian, the Japanese would be best. But I think I'll take Aeson's (the "expert warmonger" ) advice and will play the Zulus. Their UU is a perfect supplement to horsemen, expansionistic seems to be a good trait for warmongers (scouts for huts, exploring and resource denial) and militaristic of course too. I have played the Zulus before, but just in tests and only in the ancient age. Now I'll play an entire game with them. So thanks guys, for your excellent analysis , and I will see what warmonger grade I will give the Zulus.
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Old March 14, 2002, 10:37   #10
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Ah, good, some discussion.

Ok, maybe I undervalued the Zulu. I didn't think about the expansionist advantage. The Impi are a solid unit, no doubt, but I tend to rate offensive units higher. Still, I could see giving them an A-

The French were rated higher than the Indians only because they have a few non-militaristic neighbors, whereas India has to deal with China and Japan. The uselessness of the French UU vis-a-vis the Indian one I will grant you, but I really was ignoring any UU that isn't ancient.

Hmm... I left out the American civs. Oops, I had grades for 'em, I just forgot. Doh.

Aztecs: Neighbors America & Iroquois. Militaristic. They can hit before the feared Mounted Warrior can get into action, and America has the worst (and latest) UU in the game. The JW is 10 shields, making up for the weak attack/def values. Grade: A

Americans: Neighbors Aztecs and Iroquois. Eek. UU doesn't show up until the end of the Modern Age. They are, however, Exp/Ind, which can get them off to a strong start (I'm being generous to my homeland here). Grade: D+

Iroquois: Neighbors Aztecs & Americans. Aztecs are dangerous - but the AI doesn't realize it, giving you time to start building the best UU in the game. The Americans may expand well, but they have nothing that can deal with the Mounted Warrior. You expansionist trait can be used to locate your prey. A+
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Old March 14, 2002, 11:42   #11
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Iroquois have the upgrade path, too
I'd have to pick the Iroquois as the best early civ for warmongering. The Mounted Warrior is hands down the best early UU, especially with all the weak American cities sitting next door.

An added benefit that can't be overlooked is that that large army of Mounted Warriors can be immediately upgraded to Knights when you get Chivalry, giving you a quick boost against the AI civs that are stuck with a bunch of ancient units - that become fairly useless once the Knights take the field - and have to produce their Knights from scratch.

Your army is instantly large, powerful and modern while your opponents are scrambling to catch up and you can smash at least one of them before they get the chance
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Old March 14, 2002, 12:08   #12
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I would give the Germans a D- for early warmongering. The main reason is that you can't get a Golden Age at an early date. That eliminates the production benefit of the Golden Age, which I have found makes all the difference for early warmongering.
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Old March 14, 2002, 12:25   #13
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An early golden age can help warmongering, it's true. I suppose the builder in me would prefer to not blow that golden age so early, though. The reason I love the Japanese is that they can hit hard with horsemen w/o triggering a golden age, and then those horsies become Samurai. I actually triggered my golden age by building Sistine/Sun Tzu, but Samurai come at about the same time.

Maybe the Germans are more of a B+ for early warmongering... A- might have been too good. I based their grade, however, largely upon who their neighbors are. The English, French and Russians are all non-militaristic civs with mid-game UU's. The Germans are also 1 tech from ironworking at the start. They are like a wolf amongst the lambs.

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Old March 14, 2002, 13:03   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
....

The Germans are also 1 tech from ironworking at the start. They are like a wolf amongst the lambs.

-Arrian
Why yes, yes they are...
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Old March 14, 2002, 17:26   #15
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I think your grade for Germany was right on Arrian. They are the only Civ which starts with Bronze Working and Warrior Code. My best ever early conquest score came with Germany.
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Old March 14, 2002, 17:31   #16
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The Germans aren't my first choice, but I curse loudly if I start next to them in a game where I want to do some early conquering. Starting with archers and spearmen is a killer, and if you lose the first couple of battles you're facing elite spearmen, which are hard to take out for a fair few turns
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Old March 14, 2002, 20:48   #17
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Great discussion, and some good insights.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately... and I've come to some conclusions that are sort of in the opposite direction.

First, the stuff I agree with... like Arrian and Aeson I lean towards the fast movers in a UU, especially now that they are in the upgrade chain. Also, I fight a lot, so as long as I'm vet or elite the retreat issue doesn't bug me. I also prefer my GA in late ancient or early industrial, which leaves out the Germans. So, this points me toward Aztecs, Iroquis, China, Japan, India, Russia, Egypt, and Zululand.

But here are my other thoughts:

GA Timing - I HATE wasting the GA... I mean, what's the point if you have four cities pumping out a measly 5-6 shields each? Buh-bye: Aztecs and Zulus.

Characteristics - Gotta have that old-time religion. In early wars, I rarely raze cities (unless they're at 1 pop), and I need the ability to build temples FAST to overcome stupid AI poprushing. Also critical in the later game, to beat culture-flipping and resist war-weariness. Buh-bye: China and Russia (UU sort of worthless anyway). (interesting side-note: 5 out of 6 religious civs got fast-movers).

Now for my second characteristic and choice of UU, I'm left with:

1. Iroquois - Expansionist, which doesn't matter too much to me, as I build LOTS of warriors right away; they explore, they can rush, and they upgrade. Mounted Warrior comes a little early for the GA, but is strong.

2. Japan - Militaristic, which I'm torn about. Soren just confirmed that this does NOT help in GL creation, so this is cheap barracks and faster upgrades; I don;t think barracks are so expensive anyway, and I build a limited number (at first). The upgrades may sell me though... although I get a lot anyway since I fight so much, it would be useful for GL creation if they came earlier. The Samurai ROCKS.

3. India - Commercial, which is worthless. War Elephants are a good pick for risk management, but if by this time I don;t have iron and horses, I haven;t been fighting enough, and that just doesn;t happen!

4. Egypt - Industrious, which I like. War Chariots are OK, but I can live without'em until I get Horseman, and they trigger the GA too early. Buh-bye.

Now here's where I differ... when it comes to neigbors, I WANT them to be militaristic AND aggressive. I'm going to fight everyone of'em again and again, and where possible I'd like them to a) attack me, and b) use all of their resources creating military units which I use as training fodder. What's really important to me is that at any given time I have a relative strength advantage. I also consider tech and tech trading.

Iroqouis - Neighbors are Aztecs (Mil/Rel, aggr=1) and Americans (Exp/Ind, aggr=0). Jaguar Warriors could be an issue, but the AI doesn;t use them aggressively and early enough. No problem, and Tonto says they make great practice targets. The Americans, feh. Thus, excellent relative strength. In terms of tech, nothing special, and the neighbors have two that I can trade for. Between us, we only have one of the prereqs for Horseback Riding.

Japan - Neighbors are China (Mil/Ind, aggr=-1) and India (Com/Rel, aggr=-2). China, while Militaristic, never attacks. India is a good neighbor, which while it doesn't ever attack, builds a large empire to attack and take over. Relative strength is about equal, with a small edge over India. In tech, I have one of the prereqs for Horseback riding, and China has the other. The neighbors have three that I can trade for.

So on neighbor's characteristics and relative strength, I'd pick the Iroqouis. In terms of tech and tech trading, Japan (get to horses faaast).

The open questions for me then are a) the relative values of Expansionist versus Militaristic, and b) timing of the GA.

Tough, very tough. I give them both an A, if not an A+.

Nah, I just made up my mind... I go to early warmongering for GLs and to beat down my neighbors... hey wait a minute, thats the point, this is about EARLY WARMONGERING.

Japan = A+
Iroqouis = A

At the end of the day, it's having a fast-mover attacker, being Religious and Militaristic, and timing the GA.
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Added on review:

OOPS!!!! I just realized that Impis upgrade in the defender path!! That is cool!!! So, use'em for exploration, but NO fighting until you have Horsemen, then use'em together, trigger the GA, and then when you're ready upgrade to Pikemen. That truly rocks. Characteristics of Expansionist (don't care much, although I could be wrong) and Militaristic are OK, I guess, but I would really miss being Religious. Neigbors are Babs and Persians... slow-movers, no problemo, good relative strength. Three techs to trade for, good, but while I have one prereq for Horseback the other is missing from the group. Definitely a contender, but without Religious, relegated to a B+ or A- at best.
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Old March 14, 2002, 21:37   #18
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OK, OK, that was a long, roundabout way of saying "I agree."

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Old March 14, 2002, 21:37   #19
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I tend to favor the UU that comes out of the box the fastest and the cheapest, which is the JW. My expansion will be complete that much sooner, after which I can settle into builder mode for the rest of the game.

However, I just finished a game with the Babs in which my bowmen destroyed first the Aztecs and then the Zulus. (Ironically, it was the Indians' elephants that brought me to a halt.)

I have also used the Egyptians once, starting in a low-pop area. I made peace with the attacking Greeks by taking one of their cities, and then eliminated the Romans after building a road through the jungle, because they still didn't have enough Legionnaires. (Dr. Spike and I think alike.)

I did it once with the French as well, just to prove the following point: while some civs are better than others for early warmongering, I think you can beat any neighboring civ with the least-suited civ, if you pump out enough vet horsemen (or, in a pinch, archers). The AI's fatal flaw in ancient war is not having the industrial base to counter a single-minded human opponent. Even the Germans are culture-loving peaceniks compared to a human-led civ bent on expansion via overwhelming numbers.
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Old March 14, 2002, 23:28   #20
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If I play the Egyptians, I'll go for an early GA, then build up a strong military force while at the same time having one or two cities working on a wonder. My main objective then is to work towards literature so that I can build the Great Library. By the time I get that tech, I can easily switch production and build the GL in a few turns.

The advantage of having the GL is that while you're out there fighting battles, you don't have to worry as much about falling behind in the tech race.

The Germans are fine with their starting techs, but usually I can overrun them with the production bonus from GA.
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Old March 15, 2002, 07:39   #21
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'Egyptian war chariots are available after just researching the wheel, whereas horses require warrior code and horseback riding. This is a huge difference for early attacking, especially on the higher levels where a few extra turns matter. You can hit Rome with a stack of war chariots before they have any/many legions, even on deity.'

I agree, and the chances are that after taking out Rome you're going to have other soft targets nearby. I can have 15+ war chariots destroying a nearby civ by 1000bc, because in addition to the early (40 turns away from any start) and cheap UU, you're industrious as well = fast roads to horses, even if they are a fair distance away, and a quick change into a government if you manage to get a civ or two paying lots of cash tribute.
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Old March 15, 2002, 09:04   #22
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I'm glad a couple more people mentioned the Egyptians. They may not be militaristic but they have IMO the best timed UU for deity games. Coupla cities, some barracks perhaps, then you have the tech (and hopefully the resource) and can churn like there's no tomorrow.
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Old March 15, 2002, 12:13   #23
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I still maintain the Egyptian GA comes too early, but I started a game as them last night, and I will say that overrunning the Romans was quite fun.

To their credit, they do make for a solid warmonger start, followed by excellent builder capabilities.

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Old March 15, 2002, 12:27   #24
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I agree in some circumstances. My statement was for deity games, where you get a huge boost from an early golden age. Remember you probably wont have many cities in this case, with reasonable population. You can vastly increase chariot production, and you need all the help you can get.

An early GA generally is an investment, one that may or may not yield a bigger advantage over the course of the game than a later GA. Ordinarily the GA is wasted in despotism with low pop, but the return to a few extra chariots in the early game at deity level is potentially enormous over the course of the game, whereas a more satisfying later GA doesn't help he who is out of the game due to not taking enough territory and extorting enough tech in the early game.

IMO this factor makes the Egyptians, Romans, Persians, Iroquois, Zulu, Babylonians even more compelling choices at deity level
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Old March 15, 2002, 16:03   #25
Txurce
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My feeling is that the AI has the biggest advantage at the start, with some of its civs in a better starting position and a tech lead due to the inevitable prior contact, combined with my not having flexed my human muscles yet. For this reason, I think there is a definite advantage to an early GA that helps me do what Dr. Spike says: jack up admittedly few cities, to create the basis of an empire that can more than carry its own weight in the later part of the game.
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Old March 15, 2002, 20:41   #26
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I generally don't play Deity, for reasons similar to those that Vel and Arrian have laid out.

So, on Regent or Monarch, I'm not facing that uphill climb to catch up, and can a) go to early war with just warriors and archers and then later horsemen, and b) wait a little for a more productive GA.

In fact, especially on an Earth map, I'd probably reserve my War Chariots until I turned from the remnants of the Persians to Impi-hunting. Ooh yeah, a FLOOD of latish WCs down the Nile, then bring back north to upgrade to Knights.

On a random map though, faced with Rome who is Military and aggr=1, I'd feel compelled to use them at to early a point (for me).

Question: How many WCs do you usually build?

R
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Old March 15, 2002, 21:01   #27
DrSpike
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I would urge you to try deity a few times. It is admittedly annoying at times and the early strategy is reasonably forced, but it makes the player squeeze everything out that he possibly can, unlike another stroll to victory on Monarch level. Unless it's a tourney game I can't find that much enthusiasm for landing/conquering a few turns earlier in those games.
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Old March 15, 2002, 21:08   #28
DrSpike
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Oh, and the number of war chariots would be 6-10 initially. The exact number (and indeed number of cities) depends on how far away the opposition are and how many there are.

As Aeson has consistently said in deity threads you want to wait till the AI has expanded to a stretched defensive position, so don't attack straight off. Also, of course, you don't want the AI's cities to have much pop when you attack, because they'll rush like crazy and leave you with unuseable cities as well as having to face a load more units.

So 6-10 initially, get the golden age and churn like the wind until you have subdued the opposition. IMO the art at deity is picking your targets best to extort tech. Take too long and you can kiss victory goodbye.
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Old March 15, 2002, 21:29   #29
rpodos
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I just won't shut up.

Revisionist early warmongerer thinking (for me at least).

Early war is for a) punishment / denial, b) territory, resources, tech, workers, and possibly captured generating, and c) GLs.

Focus on the last, GLs. This will be determined by
- How many fights can you have as quickly as possible, and win.
- Being militaristic... build cheap barracks, and higher chance of upgrade.

Well, the second one is easy enough to determine...

The first argues for the early fast-movers... Impis, JWs, Chariots, and WCs.

- Aztecs get JWs immediately.
- Japanese get Chariots immediately.
- Zululand needs Bronze Working, which is available from both Babylon and Persia on a culturally linked map, but NOT from Egypt on an Earh map.
- Egypt needs The Wheel, which is not available from any neighbors on either culturally linked or Earth maps.

For everyone else, the first fast-mover is the Chariot, at 1/1/2, available with The Wheel. And the next is Horseman or Mounted Warrior, with Horseback Riding.

On a culturally linked map, Japan is just ridiculously great. Immediate fast-mover without burning the GA. Chariot eventually even upgrades to its UU. And as Militaristic, max benefit from early war.

On an Earth map, hmmm. On another post, I tied Egypt and Babylon at an A each. I think Egypt moves to the head of the class, even with the early GA, to an A+.

R


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Old March 15, 2002, 21:43   #30
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DrSpike,

I was writing at the same time as you were.

I am starting to convince myself that the Egyptians rock, especially on an Earth map. I'm going to try them on Marla's map first at Monarch, although I suspect it will be too easy.

I'll try Deity again, but I echo Vel in that it's all catch-up, even with early war, then there's a very short period of parity, then I have clearly gained the momentum advantage.

Do you typically play Earth or random? Culturally linked or not?

R
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