Multiplayer Unrealistic.

[Kaak]

I realize that some of you are perfectly content playing AIs that are, and always will be bad. The reasoning behind this eludes me, and for the life of me, i can't understand.

For the rest of us, who enjoy pitting our skills against the best other human players, refining and adapting game play to assault a more versatile enemy, we may be left utterly disappointed with civ3.

1) Gameplay is too slow. Civ2 in and of itself was a pretty quick game. I had no problems playing it on a p1-233. Civ3 slows down my p4 1.8 GHz computer iwth 512 MB of RD ram. The MP games in civ2 were long enough, and are just unrealistic in civ3.

2) I think it is almost generally accepted that the only playable civ3 is a modded civ3. You can see the problems this could lead to. Different people having different mods, only being able to play with people with your mods, etc. Plus, all the patch versions! I'm sure some of you can remember the difficulty in civ2. It is going to be far worse for civ3 with patches.

In conclusion, i think we should all get seppuku knives and do ritual disembowlment.

[Wittlich]

Your concerns are real Kaak, and for the most part I agree with you. However, I am still hoping beyond hope that Firaxis will actually release a "viable" Multiplayable Civ3 Edition this spring.

*keep fingers crossed*

[Ming]

I still have hope that the will do it right. It is key that they view MP totally different than the current SP game.

While they probably can't do a thing about the speed of the game on older machines, they can deal with multiple version problems.

As long as they can provide a "STABLE RUNNING" game with tons of PRE game options, I think they can have a winner.

Let us customize our civs so everybody can select the traits and special unit they want.

Let us customize things like corruption levels, science rates, rush build happiness penalities, double combat values (to minimize the ole tank vs spearman)

Let us start the game in whatever age we want, with all civs starting with the same techs.

Give us double production and double movement

Give us the option to pick the active wonders.

And these are just a few ideas... I'm sure there are tons more of options that others can think of.

The point is. If they give us tons of options in pregame set up, it will remove the need to have any mods. You can just keep the basic game clean, and then, as long as everybody has the same patch

I hope this is the path they will take. Because if they do, I really do think we will have a MP game that is superior to Civ II.

[ffej]

I agree with you Kaak, there is a lotta junk that needs to be sorted out with a multiplayer Civ3. But still, the ability to use this game as a way of challenging the intelluct of others.......blows my mind.

Right now, I am playing Civ2Gold...and as I play, I keep saying to my friend I am playing "Man, this would be so much better in Civ3", or "If this were Civ3, this wouldn not happen".

Firaxis needs to get the braintrust kicked into overdrive, and figure out multiplayer ASAP!

Ffej

[Kaak]

Ming, you make some good points! *sigh* if only...

[DrFell]

I've posted lots of stuff on this before... a 3 page long post at one point. Unfortunately it got moved to the apolyton/community forum for some reason, which pretty much killed it. Basically for this to work in MP we need a miracle. It's bad enough that the game restricts the human in so many ways (tech tree is all I really need to say for this), that so many items in the game are useless (fortresses, spying, armies, etc), and that the game is now even more decided by luck than civ2 (no river=no irrigation, you can start in the middle of jungles now or even right next to your opponents, etc). But the slowness is a nightmare. I can't see anything more than 4 players on a tiny map being viable the way it is right now, and even that will become really bad by the middle ages. Oh well, time to move on to a different game I guess. I'd love some suggestions, I'm looking for a good MP type game, because IMO SP is nothing. It's going to be a long time before they design AIs for games like this which can challenge a human.

'Different people having different mods, only being able to play with people with your mods, etc.'

When people on this forum used to say 'don't like it, just change the rules!' it used to send a shiver down my spine for just this reason

[Über KruX]

if it's an "AI pathfinding bug" causing computer-lag, then just don't play with AIs.

but i bet thats just an excuse

[faded glory]

Personally I agree with Ming. We just need a stable format ; and a Server to play on. But in order for the game MP to work. You need options like, Removing unit Graphics and no AI in games. Basic stuff that will help the game move along.


Outside of that. PBEM sounds good. I used to scoff at the idea of CTP-PBEM. Only because it lasted about a year and half to finish a game (longer, depending on the players!). but then I realized it was somthing I could take a day at a time, and I enjoy the on thread exchanges and border diplomacy you normally wouldnt get in a faster paced PBEM game .


So I am content with the idea of Civ3 PBEM..... If only they are ideas.

[Über KruX]

i loathe PBEM. it's much more satisifying to have people screaming for mercy in live action. "Please don't take rome mighty mighty mighty mighty Uber KruX" i'll give you all my money!!!

bwahahaha.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Über KruX
it's much more satisifying to have people screaming for mercy in live action.

Hmmm... I guess there is something we can agree on

[Grrr]

I wouldn't be surprised if the MP will be a lot faster than the SP. The thing is that on my Celeron 366, the game runs fine, except when the AI's turns are being calculated. The question really is, do you WANT a 16 player game on 256x256 map, which will last a week. Because, I don't see myself begging Uber Krux at 3am in the morning to keep Rome. PBEM will be good, if they add zip functionality to the save file.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Grrr
I don't see myself begging Uber Krux at 3am in the morning to keep Rome.

Do you see yourself begging UberKruX at 3am for anything?

Salve

[Grrr]

Originally posted by notyoueither

Quote:

Originally posted by Grrr I don't see myself begging Uber Krux at 3am in the morning to keep Rome.

Do you see yourself begging UberKruX at 3am for anything?
Salve

What I was getting at is the fact that world time zones are a nuisance.

[notyoueither]

Oh.

Glad you clarified that.

Seeya

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Über KruX
i loathe PBEM. it's much more satisifying to have people screaming for mercy in live action. "Please don't take rome mighty mighty mighty mighty Uber KruX" i'll give you all my money!!!

bwahahaha.

Thats not what happens. 99.9% of the time a person flips the switch when somthing goes wrong with there civ. They will come back a week later in the lobby "Oh I lost my ISP, na I dont want to continue"

PBEM they can't realy do it. Well they can ; but after you formed a friendship over a year or two on the ACS threads. They feel guilty about it. So I think PBEM is a better Idea.

[E_T]

Most likely the pathfinding routine. If you, during your turn, do something that requires the pathfinder to run, then there is a lag created. But, because you move at human speeds, the pathfinding lags aren't really noticeable overall. When the AI takes there turn, esp. if there is a war, the lag becomes very noticable (because you see it all at once). Now add MP to this lag; the communications IP overhead, the Type of cummunication (33K to ADSL/Cable), the Server state (light to heavy load) AND the Pathfinder being run on all connected machines and what would "likely" happen would be even slower than it is in SP. Even different screen sizes would have an effect.

The "best case" would be to not have ANY AI's play in the Game, but still you will have to contend with any/all associated Pathfinder delays while in the process of doing something else. And what about the Barbs?

What's the "cure" for this?

A Client/Server version that would have the Meat of the Pathfinder (and the game) on the server machine and just have the Client mostly used as a game terminal? That would really create a problem if the server has several games going at once.

Or how about a distributed computer approach to the MP/Pathfinder problem? But then how do you reconcile the different machines connected at different speeds issue? Split the work up in proportion to these things, but what happens is someone drops out? Do you start from scatch if that happens?

I think that the best playable solution is some form of middle ground between the two. If you make some form of change within your view area (non-FOW), then your machine should do the pathfinder calcs for that section only, then relay the results to the server. If the applicable path requires going into the FOW, then the Server should determine whos machine would run that part of the pathfinder. The server would also be responsible for all Mutual players FOW pathfinder. And during the AI turns, if any, break up the pathfiner between all of the players machines.

Just a thought on why MP hasn't been done yet.

Maybe, the pathfinder needs to be more intuitive, i.e. don't worry about computing a lot of paths if only a few are affected by player actions. I think that Fraxis should Open Source it's pathfinder Algorythm, so that true MP pathfinding could be hashed out. This might also have an effect of speeding up the SP game, if a more code efficient (robust) approach is thought of.

E_T

[Kaak]

like i said, a bit unrealistic

[Solver]

Ming makes good points.


Slowness... why? I have not experienced slight slowdowns even in the Modern Age. I play on Standard Maps with 8 civs. Once I tried Huge Earth Map and 16 civs, yes, that got unplayable about the end of Middle Ages - I just couldn't stand the wait.

In standard games, as soon as it gets late, I turn off enemy moves.

PBEM... good MP option, but long. PBEM Games take at least 10 months to complete, and in each PBEM game then, someone drops, replacements come and so on. It's not as fun as live action.

I use to play AOE 2, and that's some fun MP action, where we join, play it out for an hour or a bit more, and have the game played. I don't like AOE2 as much as Civ, but the MP experience there is better. On the other hand, AOE 2 has virtually no SP, while Civ 3 has.

I don't know for how many hours will Civ 3 multiplayer games last. But I assume that, with a cable connection or better, it should be quite OK. Also, Firaxis is implementing some interesting server technolgies, with Game of the Day, etc. Sounds good.

[DrFell]

'Thats not what happens. 99.9% of the time a person flips the switch when somthing goes wrong with there civ. They will come back a week later in the lobby "Oh I lost my ISP, na I dont want to continue"'

They don't usually leave against me... I play duels normally. Even if they do leave (about 1 in 10 or less games, and I win about 95% of my games) I know I was whipping their ass anyway so it doesn't bother me.

'PBEM they can't realy do it. Well they can ; but after you formed a friendship over a year or two on the ACS threads. They feel guilty about it. So I think PBEM is a better Idea. '

PBEM is so slow. I like to play 2-3 games in a night, maybe more. Not one every 6 months! Sure, put PBEM in there, but there needs to be a 'real-time' MP option too.

'The "best case" would be to not have ANY AI's play in the Game, but still you will have to contend with any/all associated Pathfinder delays while in the process of doing something else. And what about the Barbs? '

That's the reason for MP, so we don't have to play against dumb AIs. In civ2 MP I never played with AIs, the only time being when accidents happened (some guy leaves the game, or the host set the game up for too many players). I don't use barbs either, and I also don't really use goto. But I still find the game lags a bit on MY turn. There's even a slight wait before moving units, which is infuriating!

[ffej]

There is a lot of good points here, both for/against MP. For those who are against, all I can really say is fine, whatever floats your boat. When multiplayer comes out, just dont play it

I think they should just release a turn based MP patch, and then figure out a way to make it more viable. Some of us will take MP anyway we can get it. I am used to the turn based system of multiplayer (from the days of Civ2Gold and dare i say.. CivNet). I think we just need something to do during the wait times, such as city-location planning, some kind of "World Leader" chat, and options to review and plan, so when it is our turn, we already know what we are going to do.

The one thing I noticed is that the AI takes a REALLY long time once a big game gets going (for crappy AI, kind of disheartening). I'm running a 1.2GHz AMD, and 512MB of RAM, and it still takes a while (not as long as on my other mahine, a PIII 500 with 256MB), but again, thats is something I can live with.

Me and 4 friends played many games of Civ2Gold, and your right, it does take time to get people together for that, if they can play at all. That is why I always had at least 3+ multiplayer games going on, so if 1 of the 4 cannot play, then we have a 3 player game going on too, if 2 cannot play, then the other 2 play their own game.

Yeah, it is kind of a crummy system, it takes a long time, and even more problems than I can't think of now, but it all fades fast once you and your human ally out-think the other two human players and are able ot land an invasion force, or sneak a sub with nukes on board past one of your friends naval defenses, just in case he gets cute .



Ffej-drooling-at-the-mouth-for-multi-civ3

[philler]

Why am I hearing all those things about MP problems, client/server architecture, etc...?

it's a turn based game.
you play your turn normally. then your opponent does so, and meanwhile you can do whatever you want with your civ except move units, which have already moved. You can modifiy what zones are worked by your workers, trade techs or resources/luxuries, modify the science research rate, change your cities' production, etc. whatever you could have done during your turn, actually.

One thing you shouldn't be able to do is change a production that was scheduled to end at the beginning of next turn, or to change a production for something that will be available at the beginning of next turn (if for instance you're building an university which will be done in 3 turns, and an opponent sneakily attacks you, you cannot change the production for a rifleman that will be available right at the beginning of your next turn. you have to wait until your actual turn and the rifleman will be available at the beginning of next turn, just as it is for the time being).

I've played CTP over network a couple of years ago, and as far as I can remember it worked pretty much like that.
there was no problem at all, and I don't even think the game was slowed because you would keep all your micro-management for when it's not your "turn".

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by DrFell I'm looking for a good MP type game, because IMO SP is nothing. It's going to be a long time before they design AIs for games like this which can challenge a human.

I suggest you pick up a copy of CTP2 and load a couple of the free Apolyton mods on to it. With the mods the game is very well balanced and sorted out plus you have a stable MP version where you can match wits against a large community of fellow players. Cheers.

[philler]

as for the mods thing, well, you simply make sure all players have the same mods before starting the game.

even I could write that piece of program.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by faded glory
Thats not what happens. 99.9% of the time a person flips the switch when somthing goes wrong with there civ. They will come back a week later in the lobby "Oh I lost my ISP, na I dont want to continue"

It's no problem really. If a player leaves then the AI just takes over his spot on the other players continue; either way you are still better off then in just a SP game.

[godinex]

Unrealistic...

[Über KruX]

Originally posted by faded glory



Thats not what happens. 99.9% of the time a person flips the switch when somthing goes wrong with there civ. They will come back a week later in the lobby "Oh I lost my ISP, na I dont want to continue"

PBEM they can't realy do it. Well they can ; but after you formed a friendship over a year or two on the ACS threads. They feel guilty about it. So I think PBEM is a better Idea.

well i'm fortunate to have over 20 Civers in my local area, so i can beat their face in if they dont continue / quit.