The Big,Big,Big List of Wonders

[DarkCloud]

Orange, I'd take out Hadrians Wall, but we need another wonder from the Roman Era to replace it to have 6 ages of wonders (7 would be better)

The Taj Mahal is a symbol of justice (even though it was merely built for a man's wife)

Magellan's Voyage- replaced with the Magna Carta (a more substantial wonder)

The Gold Rush in california and the Gold Rush in Alaska were both important and also sparked a Bronze and Silver rush in Nevada, Utah, etc.

Ford- important symbol of American decadance.

Everyone should know about Hadrian's Wall;

p.s. (Most people don't even know what the 7 wonders of the world were!

[orange]

DarkCloud - do you really honestly believe that 6-7 epoch's all containing 7 wonders is really necessary for a game like civ? If you do, I think you have missed the true meaning of the game...or at least a great portion of it.

with that many wonders, it would be impossible to accomplish anything productive besides wonder building. It would dominate the game, mostly because you would need to build wonders to keep up with the AI. The other likely outcome is that most wonders won't even be used.

I fail to see how the gold rush, Ford Motor Co., Golden Gate/Sydney Opera House....even begin to compare with the Great Wall of China, Apollo Program, Great Pyramid, Colossus...

Again, ask yourself what a true wonder of the world is.

Why not give a "Ford Motor Co." mini wonder to the first civ who discovers manufacturing...and it can increases production in the home city? Isn't that so much simpler? No production required, and no wasting time on an insignificant wonder!!

I personally think the Oracle, King Richard's Crusade, Darwin's Voyage, Leo's workshop...were stepping over the line into "non-wonderland"...but the Statue's on Easter Island?!?!?!

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[DarkCloud]

Ah- well I cut out Leo's Workshop, Richard's Crusade, etc. because I thought the same.

The easter Island statues are a wonder because they were built be people with little food and seemingly no provocation to do so.

The Golden Gate was one of the greatest engineering projects of our time

Perhaps the Opera House doesn't belong...

The Colossus wasn't really that grand...

[orange]

quote: The Colossus wasn't really that grand...

I beg to differ...

The statue, 120 feet high, took 12 years to build. Nearly equal in height to the Statue of Liberty, yet built more than two thousand years prior. People came from all over the Mediterranian to view it. Stood for the unity of three Aegean islands.

Though it is hard to give attributes to it, it is certainly a wonder. Should decrease corruption and increase trade.

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[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 04:10 PM Again, ask yourself what a true wonder of the world is.

If a government print to much money, they end up with inflation. I think Firaxis battles the same problem if they add too many wonders, in Civ-3. Its not only that many Wonders in these Wonder-threads are - well, rather "flat" and "ordinary", to be frank.

The fact that they are so MANY, is in itself also a problem. The 28 wonders in Civ-2 was already pretty much. Your suggesting 44 - and if that was not enough, some other guy suggested even more additional "wonders".

What wrong with a "quality before quantity" approach - especially when it comes to WONDERS

Why not use Wonders in Civ-3, in the same way the cook uses salt in his food? He obviously wants some salt added, but then again adding too much destroys the food, doesnt it?

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 17, 2000).]

[orange]

If you want to be exclusive about wonders, go by this system...

Pick one from each category per era (if doing 4 eras)
Engineering (pyramids)
Science (great library)
Religious (JS Bach)...[replace with another science during age of englightenment - modern]
Diplomatic (United Nations)
Military (Sun Tzu)
Exploration (Apollo)

I'd hate to see it go above 30 Major wonders...my ideal number would be 16-20...but I understand that most people love to see the major wonders.

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[Ribannah]

If the number of tribes is increased, it would make sense if the number of wonders were larger as well. If with 14 tribes there are 42 wonders (7 in each of 6 era's), that's 3 per tribe, while we have 4 per tribe in Civ2.

Further the number of techs will also be increased if there are more tribes, because more techs could be traded. Say there are 126 techs (6x21), then 42 wonders would be 1 in 3 techs as opposed to 1 in 3.25 in Civ2.

So my vote is for 42 wonders in Civ3!
Now we have to decide which ones ....



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[DarkCloud]

Why should the Colossus decrease corruption, the reasons you listed mean nothing about corruption.

I thought civ had 5 ages with 7 wonders each in them, thus 35 wonders!?!?

orange- if you claim you don't like 'concept' wonders then exactly why do you consider "Sun-Tzu's War College" a wonder? It was never built.

[Ribannah]

Darkcloud, I have counted the prehistoric age (ie before Writing) as well. This covers Civ2 techs as Mining, Roads, Archery (=Warrior Code), Pottery, Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working, Irrigation, Masonry and Horseback Riding.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[orange]

it was an example of a wonder that fits that description. I personally don't like it.

I still say 42 wonders is too much...in real life they aren't being built at all times. But in the game, there are often at least one built by at least two civ at any given point in the game....sometimes the same wonder

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[MikeB52]

I think that 16-20 wonders are probably enough.
For the "Ancient Age", there would be:

Pyramids = Granary for every City; obsolete by "G.A.O."; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Great Wall = Defensive Bonus vs. Barbarians + 5%Increase to Production/Trade/Science for the entire Civ; Obsolete by "Cannon making"; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Appian Way = Reduces cost of road building by 25%; Obsolete by "Feudalism/Knights".

Great Library = Autom. receive any advance discovered by 2-4 other Civ's, if one has made contact with at least 3-6 other Civ's; Obsolete by "Electricity"; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Chichen Itza = Reduces Crime/Corruption by 30% for the entire Civ., Obsolete by "Navigation";+ 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.


As for the rest of the ages, I'm a bit short on real wonders, so I have some more thinking to do.


Finally, and I do apologize if this has already come up somewhere else, why not have city improvements, which can be built in up to 4 sizes? For example, one could start building a medium size theatre, making 2 unhappy people content, later in the game, the theatre is upgraded to a big/very big one. Or if one started to build a very big science lab, and suddenly has to re-alocate production capacity to defense units, one could temporarily build a small/medium size lab. The idea beeing, that a very big city improvement would have the same effect as a wonder, and of course, it would also have the same price to build it.

As this is my first every post, I hope that nobody is unduly p..ed off.
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"The same thing we do every night, Pinky, try to take over the world!!!!"

[Vrank Prins]

I must say I like the idea of miniwonders.

Here's an idea for one. One, who I know for sure, will be completely and utterly unknown to allmost all non-dutch and most certainly non-europeans.

(with the sound of trumpets blowing) THE WAGENINGEN AGRICULTURAL UNIVERSITY

Wageningen is a small city of about 35.000 inhabitants on the banks of the river Rijn/Rhine about 30 km west of Arnhem (you may remember the battle for "a bridge too far" in 1944, Wageningen was on the edge of the battlefield). It houses since 1876 the "Wageningen Landbouw Hogeschool" (translation see above). The effort being put into research and application of new diary- and marketgardeningproductionmethods has lead to the fact the Netherlands have become and still are(for some fourty years now) the third (or might even be second) exporting country (first comes the USA) of agriculturalproducts*. Quite an achievement for such a small country.

Wageningen, all over the (agricultural) world stands for improved agricultural researchmethods.

In the game it could have the effect of one extra trade (and maybe also one extra sheaf) per farmed !!! square in the city where it's build and its directly adjacent cities.
It should occur somewhere with massproduction.

And it would be lovely to have, after the pyramids an other and a real agricultural wonder.

*being abroad in England, Belgium or Germany I almost every time see crates with vegetables (tomatoes, capsicums, salad etc.) "produce of holland" (just the western part of the NL) standing on the greengrocery sections in supermarkets.

[Grumbold]

I'm all for having more Wonders, provided the number of turns in the game is expanding in proportion. Having new Wonders being built every few turns will make them pretty unwonderful. I'm also keen that if they are to have a big effect (like +25% production or a free improvement in all cities) it only be for a short period of time. Then they should be relegated to being a fixed tourist (trade arrow) improvement for the city instead. Only two ex-wonders per city would affect trade so there is more incentive to spread them out. Otherwise we get the same old Ubercities every time.

I can't see the Oracle working. The AI reacts to what it sees when it makes its turn. If the Oracle gives warning and you shift your units to defend that border, why would it then attack? :rolleyes

Incidentally, while not Wonders in one sense, having the Natural Wonders optionally appear on the map would be interesting, just for a little added flavour. Things like Everest, Niagra Falls, Giant Sequoia ?sp? and the Grand Canyon should be unterraformable, too, due to public pressure. The ability to name parts of the world (as SMAC did automatically) would be welcome, too.

[Pangaea]

What about a world peace wonder? (only had time to skim through everyone's post, so if someone already said this, sorry, I'll delete it )

Its not a wonder, but if there are no wars for about 5 turns, world peace starts.... and the people in EVERYONE'S civilizations are happier....

although, as most people know, Wars trigger inovation, so maybe a bonus for warring countries in military technological advances (based on #of attacks in ratio to the number of civilians/cities) because if there was no WWII, we probably wouldn't have most types of planes, A-Bombs, or space flight (although jet propulsion was probably on the table before the war)

either way, these arn't really wonders, but have almost the same affect

[orange]

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 12-19-2000 12:15 PM Ford was the first entrepreneur, factory owner to apply (somewhere in the 1920's) at large scale the idea's of Taylor, a scientist who developed a method for the analysis and synthesis of workprocesses. Ford developed the conveyor belt or assembly line. That's why Ford, and actually before him Taylor are so really very !!!! important. Ford motorcars became, because of these new productionmethods, so cheap that every American could dream/afford to have his/her own car. At the sametime Ford could pay his workers far better wages than any other factory owner could. It's a major contribution to the American dream. This is also why In CIV-II the mfg-plant can be build after having discovered the automobile. Though I think in CIV-III it should come with Taylorism, because it were Taylors ideas that had such a profound impact on productionmethods which lead to the material wealth we now know (in the western world). [This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited December 19, 2000).]

Yes..but really the ideas of Ford and Taylor yada yada come from the interchangable parts from Whitney, which came from somewhere which came from somewhere etc. etc.

It's like me saying that McDonalds is a wonder of the world because it was the first fast-food restaraunt that allowed the American public to get food cheap and quickly...which is a part of the American Dream.

I just think we should measure things up to the Pyramids, Great Wall, etc. So let me know if you think Ford Motor Co. is equal to Pyramids/Great Wall.

And I agree it is important, so why not give the first civ to discover manufacturing (+auto) a "Ford Motor Co." in their most productive city? This could increase overall happiness in your civ (by a slight amount) and increase production in that city. Something like that. This is what I mean by "mini-wonders". I personally wouldn't want to waste a large WoW on the Ford Motor Co.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 11:54 AMFord Motor Co.? How is that a wonder? it's a friggin' company!

Ford was the first entrepreneur, factory owner to apply (somewhere in the 1920's) at large scale the idea's of Taylor, a scientist who developed a method for the analysis and synthesis of workprocesses. Ford developed the conveyor belt or assembly line. That's why Ford, and actually before him Taylor are so really very !!!! important. Ford motorcars became, because of these new productionmethods, so cheap that every American could dream/afford to have his/her own car. At the sametime Ford could pay his workers far better wages than any other factory owner could.
It's a major contribution to the American dream.
This is also why In CIV-II the mfg-plant can be build after having discovered the automobile. Though I think in CIV-III it should come with Taylorism, because it were Taylors ideas that had such a profound impact on productionmethods which lead to the material wealth we now know (in the western world).
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited December 19, 2000).]

[EnochF]

You people are all nuts.

[Ferdi]

I agree! They see wonders everywhere!!!

[MrFun]

Ok, I might have missed them in the previous lists, but I have a question - where are wonders for African civilizations south of the Sahara, for Arabians, for Turks, and for Chinese other than the one or two listed for Chinese? And what about Native American tribes besides Cambodia or the Aztec? (yes, someone did mention the Snake Mounds of the Mississippi River valley)

Let me know if I overlooked them and that some are already suggested.

[MrFun]

No it's not - that is what you call a typing error - I meant to say "what about Native American or SE Asian tribes . . .?"

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by MrFun on 02-06-2001 09:49 AM Ok, I might have missed them in t he previous lists, but I have a question - where are wonders for African civilizations south of the Sahara, for Arabians, for Turks, and for Chinese other than the one or two listed for Chinese? And what about Native American tribes besides Cambodia or the Aztec? (yes, someone did mention the Snake Mounds of the Mississippi River valley)

These I have suggested before:
African: Kruger National Park (instead of Yellowstone)
Chinese: Grand Canal
(partly) Arab: the OPEC

Here are some new suggestions:
Turkish: Topkapi Palace
Native American: Terraces at Bacavi (Hopi)


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Cyclotron]

Cambodia is a native American tribe?!?!

[MrFun]

ok, cool

although I hate to add something that appeared in CTP... The Human Genome Project should be a wonder. It could work like the Manhatten Project, preventing use of special improvements/units/wonders related to genetics (i.e., cloning/cure for cancer/"homo-superior" Infantry) until it was built.

As for mini-wonders, that is a good idea if they are tempoary like the "feats of wonders" in CTP2.

I also think that the effects of wonders in general should be reduced, especially if there are to be more of them in the game... additionaly I really dislike wonders that "count as a [city improvement] in all cities". Each wonder should have a unique (but small) advantage... and your citizens should celebrate on the turn it's completed.

[vanishpoint]

Been awhile since I've been here, but have an idea that, while not a genuine wonder, has done more for modern society than many of the other suggestions in here. And that would be...
THE STANDARDIZATION MOVEMENT.
While you don't build daylight savings time or time zones, regions and nations did make a conscious decision to stop marching to the beat of a different drummer (there were 70 American time zones in 1860) and set their clocks with the neighbors 20 miles down the road. And by doing so, they paved the way for industrial stength and all the goodies that came with it. Standardized time brought with it timeclocks in factories, punctual meetings and the saying "time is money."
In the U.S., the standardization movement essentially began in Pittsburgh, when an astronomer (Sam Langley who went on to fame with the Smithsonian) with Allegheny Observatory convinced Western Union to link the observatory with Pittsburgh so he could wire time (that's it -- just the time) to Pennsylvania Railroad for $1,000 a year (this was in the 1870s, I believe). The railroads were responsible for the standardization movement and in the game railroads would be required for a society to pursue standardization. Once it's achieved, production across the land would increase greatly.
I'm not sure if this should be a wonder or merely a consequence of a fully established railroad system. If only a byproduct of rail, the game should be designed so that production in a nation is increased when, say, 80 percent (of course this number is negotiable) of the cities are linked via rail. If not a wonder but a consequence, this benefit would be avaiable to any nation that reaches the standardized-time threshhold of railroad developmment.